Stadium Development

[LJBlade]

Yes
Clubs that have rebuilt or expanded stadiums have seen massive increases in their attendances

Here's a newsflash for you "Bramall Lane is shit" by modern day standards

It's good by Sheffield standards, but it is not a good stadium at all

Which is the reason why it keeps getting selected to host International matches.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Yes
Clubs that have rebuilt or expanded stadiums have seen massive increases in their attendances

Here's a newsflash for you "Bramall Lane is shit" by modern day standards

It's good by Sheffield standards, but it is not a good stadium at all

Here's a newsflash for you, nobody gives anything you say any credence because all you do is cry about how shit everything to do with United is.

It's genuinely weird tbh, I have no idea why you bother following the club at all

 

[Rodders]

I like Bramall Lane. In comparison to other clubs of a similar standing it's one of the best grounds there is.

I definitely don't see a need for a bigger capacity. Our average crowd this century (excluding the lockdown season) is 22,403. Remove the L1 years and it's still only 23,468. Even further, take the Warnock Prem season as a starting point for "new" crowds and we still only average 26,700 outside of L1

View attachment 145512

What kind of maniac puts dates in descending order?

 

[Carlton Blade]

What kind of maniac puts dates in descending order?

I nicked the data from Transfermarkt and couldn't be arsed transposing it

 

[Overthehills]

But it makes no economic sense whatsoever though, so shouldn't be considered over anything. We should do whatever delivers the biggest economic return first which probably puts the KOP not just after the South Stand but also Bramall Lane.

What economic value do you expect from the planned development and extension of Bramall Lane?

 

[Sheffsteel]

But even if you only used 19/20, our best season since 74/75 I didn’t see evidence that we were turning people away?

I’m all up for improvement of facilities but I don’t see a need for increased capacity

I've seen with my own eyes fans being turned away during our 1st season in the Premier League a few year back.

I personally know a Rotherham fan who wanted to attend the Liverpool game so I personally went down to the ticket office and they wouldn't let me buy an extra ticket.
They weren't even allowing registrations. There was 2 Asian guys immediately in front of me also wanting to buy tickets.
The receptionist asked for their registration details, they said they aren't registered, so the young girl said tickets can only be bought if registered on the database.
The 2 guys said they would happily register, but the ticket office said they needed to have registered in previous years and a new registration can't be accepted for this match. So they were refused tickets and I was also refused a ticket for my friend.

I believe for the big games where there is easily a 40K demand like Liverpool, Man United, Man City etc the only way to buy tickets were to be registered on the database in previous seasons. So even if you agreed to register on the day, it was still impossible to buy a ticket.

I also had a situation when I was attending a social event with a casual Wednesday fan friend and joked he should come with me to a Premier League match.
To my surprise he agreed to come...tried to buy a ticket but was told he had to register on the database. When I told him he refused saying he wasn't willing to register but just wanted a ticket. He asked if I could buy extra tickets on my season ticket and when I asked the ticket office they said no, everyone must register.

Other clubs have a massive demand from casual supports who just want to see a Premier League game. However probably because SUFC feel they can fill the stadium with their own genuine supporters we've chosen a policy to make it really difficult for casual/neutral supporters to attend.

For example I'm a SU season ticket holder but in the 80's I bought tickets for Hillsborough on the odd occasion.
We have visitors from Canada and one wanted to attend an English football match when SW were at home to Everton, so I had little choice to take him there. It was SW first match with the roof on the Kop. Also in the 80's one of my work colleagues was a massive Watford fan, so a few of us at work (mainly Blades) used to go to Hillsboro whenever Watford were playing to support Watford. It was so easy to buy tickets, you just turned up on the day and sat in whatever stand you wanted.

 

[Stand United]

Safe standing: If this becomes common place in 10 years then we should use a design to take this into account.
Unfortunately the McCabe design that we have planning permission for doesn't take into account safe standing. If there's a chance of following the German model of fitting 1.5 standing people into each seat, then all the concourse areas, stairways, toilets, bars, kiosks would need enlarging to deal with the approx 18K on the Kop.

One consideration that simplifies this slightly is that if indeed the relevant authorities would ever permit safe standing areas in the top 2 divisions to change the ratio of standing capacity per rail seat to eg 1:1.5, the only part of the Kop this would able to be considered would be the extension. The existing Kop rows simply don’t provide enough space for expanding the capacity within these to be workable. But the designs submitted for the extension proposed rows that would be 20cm deeper, which would, in theory, work for this. So you’d actually only be dealing with 1600 more fans of Kop capacity in that scenario (with the overall total being ~15k).

 

[S64 Blade]

I excluded L1 because it's an outlier. That was the first time we'd been that low for 23 years). I do thing 06/07 onwards (exc L1) is a fair sample of where we are as a club. If we had a sustained period in the Championship (say 6 years) of finishing somewhere between 4th and 14th I think it's fair to say we'd be around 23-25k average crowd? If we went up I do disagree that we'd be at 32k though. Last time around was the absolute peak in interest in the club. Managed by a fan, a national success story etc. And we weren't turning people away. My view is a sustained, Palace, Burnley style PL stint would see us hover at 28-capacity as an average

But I 100% agree with your rationale about why investment at the moment would be exceedingly risky too

Not sure I’d agree that it was peak interest under Wilder. We still got around the same average attendance that we got under Warnock in the PL - the reason being, the ground held the same number of fans and we weren’t able to make it easy for newbies to attends.

It’s a little defeatist too to think that we couldn’t grow our core fan base further (as we already have done over the last 20 years), with another good spell on the pitch. Especially if Wednesday continue to reside in League One.

Ideally, we’d increase the capacity incrementally anyway. Adding 2/3k in the first instance and go from there if needed. This extra amount wouldn’t “look bad” if we had another slump.

The real issue to be honest (apart from the cost) is the logistics of doing this. It really needs to be the Kop, but we all know that’d be expensive and also could be problematic if we have to close all/some of it during the season. Realistically, when ready, it may best and cheaper to just extend the Kop and build some facilities out on the back.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Profitable or not, the kop needs to be improved - I can’t believe it’s even a debate, it’s an eyesore that offers hundreds of restricted view seats and the facilities are of non-league standard. It’s a bit of an insult to the supporters sitting there to have left this stand in such a state for so long, this stand was outdated in the 90s. This is something that should have been sorted when we got promoted - we had premier league money for 2 seasons and ultimately got nothing tangible to show for it.

 

[Katzenjammer]

Ah, wonderful. The perennial stadium "debate" has resurfaced again. Fueled by many who believe they have a divine right to anything beyond a view of the pitch and a wall to piss on. Must be exhausting being so entitled.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Not sure I’d agree that it was peak interest under Wilder. We still got around the same average attendance that we got under Warnock in the PL - the reason being, the ground held the same number of fans and we weren’t able to make it easy for newbies to attends.

It’s a little defeatist too to think that we couldn’t grow our core fan base further (as we already have done over the last 20 years), with another good spell on the pitch. Especially if Wednesday continue to reside in League One.

Ideally, we’d increase the capacity incrementally anyway. Adding 2/3k in the first instance and go from there if needed. This extra amount wouldn’t “look bad” if we had another slump.

The real issue to be honest (apart from the cost) is the logistics of doing this. It really needs to be the Kop, but we all know that’d be expensive and also could be problematic if we have to close all/some of it during the season. Realistically, when ready, it may best and cheaper to just extend the Kop and build some facilities out on the back.

I’m naturally pessimistic so that’s probably a fair assessment. I’m just of a view that we (and Wednesday) are “about 30k when doing well” clubs.

 

[S64 Blade]

Ah, wonderful. The perennial stadium "debate" has resurfaced again. Fueled by many who believe they have a divine right to anything beyond a view of the pitch and a wall to piss on. Must be exhausting being so entitled.

Is this you?

 

[Katzenjammer]

Is this you?
View attachment 145521

No but I endorse it wholeheartedly.

 

[Lower Drop Blade]

Was there ever any official club statement on if and when the stadium expansion plan approval would happen? And when any approved development would be completed?

View attachment 145452

Sheffield United submit plans to expand Bramall Lane stadium, which could take capacity beyond 40,000

Sheffield United have submitted plans to significantly expand their Bramall Lane stadium.

www.thestar.co.uk

Is it that time of year again

 

[S64 Blade]

No but I endorse it wholeheartedly.

How will you piss up the wall, or see the pitch in the winter time, with no electricity? That’s if you make it into the ground, what with the electronic turnstiles.

Such a diva.

 

[JJBlade]

Here's a newsflash for you, nobody gives anything you say any credence because all you do is cry about how shit everything to do with United is.

It's genuinely weird tbh, I have no idea why you bother following the club at all

Maybe it's because I want better for the club and I'm not completely blind to its faults.

It can be dressed up however people want to dress it up, but Bramall Lane is not a good stadium, it's facilities are piss poor and has more restricted view seats than unrestricted.

And my messages have quite the opposite effect as "nobody is interested or gives any credence to what I say"

Everybody is all over my messages, likes or dislikes, but they are all over them in seconds

 

[Carlton Blade]

Maybe it's because I want better for the club and I'm not completely blind to its faults.

It can be dressed up however people want to dress it up, but Bramall Lane is not a good stadium, it's facilities are piss poor and has more restricted view seats than unrestricted.

And my messages have quite the opposite effect as "nobody is interested or gives any credence to what I say"

Everybody is all over my messages, likes or dislikes, but they are all over them in seconds

Not blind to it's faults = Literally cries in anguish over every little thing you perceive as not perfect.

People respond to you because they can't believe anyone can be that far outside of 'normal' opinions and because you're easy to wind up

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

I’m naturally pessimistic so that’s probably a fair assessment. I’m just of a view that we (and Wednesday) are “about 30k when doing well” clubs.

Of course we’ll only be a 30k when doing well club because thats all the ground holds. We’ll never know if we could be a 35-40k club if we don’t increase the capacity and find out.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Of course we’ll only be a 30k club when doing well club because thats all the ground holds. We’ll never know if we could be a 35-40k club if we don’t increase the capacity and find out.

I literally have no argument to the point that we'll only know if we can fill a bigger stadium by having a bigger stadium

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

..…it's facilities are piss poor and has more restricted view seats than unrestricted.

That’s just not true is it?

At least try to not make stuff up to suit your argument.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

I literally have no argument to the point that we'll only know if we can fill a bigger stadium by having a bigger stadium

It’s the only way to find out. It’s how we know Wednesday can’t fill one.

 

[Broomhall Blade]

Big difference between keeping it modern and fit for purpose, than spunking £50m to add 6k seats...

And for the record Manchester City Council paid for their new stadium as part of the Commonwealth Games hosting - so you might want to sit down with your mate and get your facts straight, otherwise you run the risk of looking pretty stupid...

Thanks for that advice, good job you are on the ball or I could have made myself look "pretty stupid".

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I like Bramall Lane. In comparison to other clubs of a similar standing it's one of the best grounds there is.

I definitely don't see a need for a bigger capacity. Our average crowd this century (excluding the lockdown season) is 22,403. Remove the L1 years and it's still only 23,468. Even further, take the Warnock Prem season as a starting point for "new" crowds and we still only average 26,700 outside of L1

View attachment 145512

When your figures start we were a 2nd tier club. We are now and our attendance has doubled in 22 years.
As a Premier League club do you think it is impossible to increase another 10% or 20% in the same timescale?

 

[Carlton Blade]

When your figures start we were a 2nd tier club. We are now and our attendance has doubled in 22 years.
As a Premier League club do you think it is impossible to increase another 10% or 20% in the same timescale?

I added the average (26k) from 06/07 to now (with L1 excluded) as well.

I don't think it's impossible at all. I just don't think it's inevitable. If it was, surely Palace, Burnley etc would have built bigger stadiums?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

What economic value do you expect from the planned development and extension of Bramall Lane?

An increase in revenues, else we shouldn't be spending any of our somewhat limited resources on it.
At the moment it's run down but entirely functional.

It might not make much economic sense but how about just improving facilities for some of the clubs most loyal fans?

It shouldn’t just be about ROI. It should be about doing the best you can for the fans who are the lifeblood of the club.

Ah, wonderful. The perennial stadium "debate" has resurfaced again. Fueled by many who believe they have a divine right to anything beyond a view of the pitch and a wall to piss on. Must be exhausting being so entitled.

Actually it's more around should resources be spent on this or training ground/academy/first team?
In a world of infinite wants and limited resources it's very relevant. You can only spend the money once, so where do you want it spent?
I personally would want money spend on areas where we can expect a return especially given the Kop upgrade is important it isn't critical nor urgent.

 

[BushBlade]

I added the average (26k) from 06/07 to now (with L1 excluded) as well.

I don't think it's impossible at all. I just don't think it's inevitable. If it was, surely Palace, Burnley etc would have built bigger stadiums?

Palace have got a lot of issues in trying to redevelop. The ground is too hemmed in.

The bottom line is, whatever the arguments in favour of redeveloping the Lane, the club just doesn’t have the money at the moment.

 

[JJBlade]

When your figures start we were a 2nd tier club. We are now and our attendance has doubled in 22 years.
As a Premier League club do you think it is impossible to increase another 10% or 20% in the same timescale?

Absolutely
A rock solid Premier League club who's "new" fans are actually allowed to buy tickets would see a big increase

People talk about our support like they do about Leicesters and Brightons and Southamptons

But we have historically been MUCH BETTER supported than any of them

If they can increase to 30,000 + there's no reason why we can't build to 40,000

We have had 50 odd thousand attendances before that most people on this board remember.

The only thing missing was the consistency from the club, but the fans are out there, they just have to be enticed to come.

And a rock solid Premier League club is how we would do it, anything less than that and it won't happen

 

[petrusha]

It was more complicated than that, I think City chipped in money for the conversion to a football stadium after the Council/Govt funded Commonwealth Games and the council got some of the gate money up to a certain attendance and City got to keep anything above that level. That arrangement may have changed.

I remember City lurker petrusha explaining it at the time, way before the Abu Dhabi involvement and it seemed to make sense at that time, although I don’t recall the detail.

Yes, I remember writing about this. It was back in the days when you were JOS Blade, I think. I appreciate this is a niche interest on here (probably relevant to me alone), but the odd person may be interested so here goes again.

Unfortunately the details of the financing of the Commonwealth Games stadium are no longer on the Sport England website, but I wrote a lot about this for City fanzines and websites at the time. The bottom line is that the difference in cost between the stadium handed over to City after the Games (converted using public money) and a GBP 60 million temporary venue that would have been dismantled after the Games (which Sport England had committed to funding in its entirety) was GBP 70 million.

City paid £6 million up front, transferred Maine Road to the Council (valued at £27 million in the books, though they only got £14 million from the sale of the site for housing), paid rent of £14 million for the first 8 seasons, and since the start of 2011/12 have paid a flat fee of £4 million annually (the lease was renegotiated to allow for expansion and the sale of naming rights). Thus, by summer 2022 the Council has received a further £44 million from the club for rent/naming rights. That makes a total of £78 million that City have paid so far. In addition, the club paid in full for fitting out the stadium (bars and other concession stalls, offices, dressing rooms, corporate facilities, etc.) and has paid for the 2015 expansion plus other improvements over time in their entirety. The stadium has been available for community use on 100 days each year.

City's most recent published accounts reveal that the club is due to pay a further £62 million in rent before the club has a right to purchase the stadium under the lease. That will give direct payments to the public purse of £140 million by that point, i.e. more than the GBP 130 million the whole stadium cost, including the conversion to football mode.

It's still a great deal for Man City and the club got incredibly lucky. However, the idea that it was a gift from the public purse is off the mark. On the other hand, neither West Ham nor anywhere else will get within a million miles of making the London Stadium value for money for the public purse. According to The Guardian in 2015, the cost of the stadium as it was during the 2012 Olympics was £429 million. According to this press release from the London Assembly in 2018 - The full cost of London Stadium - the "cost of retrofitting the Stadium has risen from a budgeted £190 million to £323 million". That gives a total of over £750 million spend on the stadium in its current form.

Moreover, West Ham paid £15 million towards the post Olympics transformation (less than 5% of the total conversion cost) and will pay £2.5 million per year on a 99-year lease. But even though, unlike City, West Ham get nothing from other events at the venue, the London Assembly admitted that original forecasts of the stadium generating an annual surplus were pie in the sky: it "will now lose over £10 million every year," they said.

OK, that's it. I just wanted to stress that, while these two cases are often bracketed together, they're really not all that alike except in that they involve a football club being the tenant of a public body. In one, funds are returned to the public purse at least in line with the original build costs, but in the other, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been wasted on a venue that is a poor fit for its main long-term purpose and the amount squandered grows year on year.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread. I've finished now.

 

[S64 Blade]

I added the average (26k) from 06/07 to now (with L1 excluded) as well.

I don't think it's impossible at all. I just don't think it's inevitable. If it was, surely Palace, Burnley etc would have built bigger stadiums?

The Palace one has been answered. Burnley have been relatively skint so that may be a reason why they haven’t. Plus they’re not that well supported. We were getting more in League One than they got for some PL games.

 

[Carlton Blade]

The Palace one has been answered. Burnley have been relatively skint so that may be a reason why they haven’t. Plus they’re not that well supported. We were getting more in League One than they got for some PL games.

But surely it's about how having PL football should guarantee you a growth in support rather than what your base is now? Burnley showed that it's not a guarantee