Stadium Development

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IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Big difference between keeping it modern and fit for purpose, than spunking £50m to add 6k seats...

And for the record Manchester City Council paid for their new stadium as part of the Commonwealth Games hosting - so you might want to sit down with your mate and get your facts straight, otherwise you run the risk of looking pretty stupid...
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It was more complicated than that, I think City chipped in money for the conversion to a football stadium after the Council/Govt funded Commonwealth Games and the council got some of the gate money up to a certain attendance and City got to keep anything above that level. That arrangement may have changed.

I remember City lurker petrusha explaining it at the time, way before the Abu Dhabi involvement and it seemed to make sense at that time, although I don’t recall the detail.
 

For a stand that houses 10k fans, the facilities on the Kop are dismal. Both toilet facilities and catering facilities are yet to be desired….. this has to be a consideration over anything.
 
Smirth said:
We're still waiting for the training ground facilities to be updated and brought up to scratch, so I'd wager this won't be happening for a long, long time.
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We’ve just spent 1.7 million on new desso pitches.
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Big difference between keeping it modern and fit for purpose, than spunking £50m to add 6k seats...

And for the record Manchester City Council paid for their new stadium as part of the Commonwealth Games hosting - so you might want to sit down with your mate and get your facts straight, otherwise you run the risk of looking pretty stupid...
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...perhaps you missed the innuendo ? I don’t think Maine Road was involved !! Look nearer to home.
 
I keep seeing the argument “if we expand we can give the away fans 6k etc” How many premier league clubs give away sides 6k tickets ? I don’t think any give more than 3 thousand.

As mentioned I think the biggest priority is the kop having a bit of a facelift , posts removed (would open up a few hundred restricted view seats) , indoor concourse on the back of the exits.Instead of the huge outdoor walk to the bar that’s further than a Wetherspoons bog.

South stand could maybe have a glass reclad , but would like too see it with a proper upgrade eventually.But as mentioned we’d need to be a premier league mainstay for this to happen.
 
ShropsBlade said:
I keep seeing the argument “if we expand we can give the away fans 6k etc” How many premier league clubs give away sides 6k tickets ? I don’t think any give more than 3 thousand.

As mentioned I think the biggest priority is the kop having a bit of a facelift , posts removed (would open up a few hundred restricted view seats) , indoor concourse on the back of the exits.Instead of the huge outdoor walk to the bar that’s further than a Wetherspoons bog.

South stand could maybe have a glass reclad , but would like too see it with a proper upgrade eventually.But as mentioned we’d need to be a premier league mainstay for this to happen.
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My thoughts exactly….

The kop desperately needs the indoor concourse and improved facilities. Even when gritted, the outdoor stairs become dicey as well in winter (I’ve seen many end up on their arse over years)… For a club of our size and a stand with a capacity such as that, the facilities on the kop are nothing short of league one.

As for the south…I personally find the whole paint job completely unfitting with everything else around it. It’s pretty low standard and looks a bit gash, cheap and somewhat oppressive….some sort of proper frontage on this would have cost a lot more im sure, but it would have done a lot in terms of improving a very aged stand.
 
Bladedownsouth said:
My thoughts exactly….

The kop desperately needs the indoor concourse and improved facilities. Even when gritted, the outdoor stairs become dicey as well in winter (I’ve seen many end up on their arse over years)… For a club of our size and a stand with a capacity such as that, the facilities on the kop are nothing short of league one.

As for the south…I personally find the whole paint job completely unfitting with everything else around it. It’s pretty low standard and looks a bit gash, cheap and somewhat oppressive….some sort of proper frontage on this would have cost a lot more im sure, but it would have done a lot in terms of improving a very aged stand.
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Totally agree.
 
We would need to get promoted first I would guess, then
1. Upgrade training complex
2. Hotel needs up grading
3. Kop desperately needs upgrading into a modern facility
Massive investment needed for all this lot, depending on promotion to PL or a take over
If we could somehow keep a sustainable period in the PL which as we know is so difficult then could look at the south stand and increase capacity further,
Always good to have a plan and vision though 😃
 
ShropsBlade said:
I keep seeing the argument “if we expand we can give the away fans 6k etc” How many premier league clubs give away sides 6k tickets ? I don’t think any give more than 3 thousand.

As mentioned I think the biggest priority is the kop having a bit of a facelift , posts removed (would open up a few hundred restricted view seats) , indoor concourse on the back of the exits.Instead of the huge outdoor walk to the bar that’s further than a Wetherspoons bog.

South stand could maybe have a glass reclad , but would like too see it with a proper upgrade eventually.But as mentioned we’d need to be a premier league mainstay for this to happen.
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We only have to give them 3000 in PL
 
Bladedownsouth said:
For a stand that houses 10k fans, the facilities on the Kop are dismal. Both toilet facilities and catering facilities are yet to be desired….. this has to be a consideration over anything.
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But it makes no economic sense whatsoever though, so shouldn't be considered over anything. We should do whatever delivers the biggest economic return first which probably puts the KOP not just after the South Stand but also Bramall Lane.
 
We have a owner without the necessary personal financial commitment and plenty of other things need sorting first...

If anyone has a spare billion to spend on the club then maybe we will see it.
 

I like Bramall Lane. In comparison to other clubs of a similar standing it's one of the best grounds there is.

I definitely don't see a need for a bigger capacity. Our average crowd this century (excluding the lockdown season) is 22,403. Remove the L1 years and it's still only 23,468. Even further, take the Warnock Prem season as a starting point for "new" crowds and we still only average 26,700 outside of L1

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Flatulent_Bob said:
But it makes no economic sense whatsoever though, so shouldn't be considered over anything. We should do whatever delivers the biggest economic return first which probably puts the KOP not just after the South Stand but also Bramall Lane.
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It might not make much economic sense but how about just improving facilities for some of the clubs most loyal fans?

It shouldn’t just be about ROI. It should be about doing the best you can for the fans who are the lifeblood of the club.
 
I always hear the same two arguments.

We get promoted,,,,,,,,"we need to establish ourselves first"
We get relegated,,,,,,,,,"we dont have any money"

We need this woman to take over the club,,,,,,,,,,fuck how much it costs we need growth growth growth.
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FATTYFOULKE said:
It might not make much economic sense but how about just improving facilities for some of the clubs most loyal fans?

It shouldn’t just be about ROI. It should be about doing the best you can for the fans who are the lifeblood of the club.
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Agree with the sentiment but you know that's not how well run clubs work, they aren't going to throw money down the drain.

Ignoring ROI and doing the best for the fans is so "last century". In fact I don't even think it's last century.
Surely you only invest when you expect a profit at some point.
Only a naive billionaire benefactor would spend money for zero reward.

McCabes plans were probably the best compromise solution.
It improve virtually all the facilities, concourse protected under cover, bigger toilets, bars and kiosks, removal of the pillars.

And the important factors were
Cost: It was the cheap option, just building onto the back of the present Kop, much cheaper than doing the south stand or new training ground.
Potential profit: It would put an extra 3,500 at the back of the Kop, so for games attracting over 35K we would earn a bigger income.
Might take a long time but eventually we would see a return on the investment.

However 2 unknown factors that would effect expansion is
Safe standing: If this becomes common place in 10 years then we should use a design to take this into account.
Unfortunately the McCabe design that we have planning permission for doesn't take into account safe standing. If there's a chance of following the German model of fitting 1.5 standing people into each seat, then all the concourse areas, stairways, toilets, bars, kiosks would need enlarging to deal with the approx 18K on the Kop.
Future trend in attendances: Attendances were low in the 1980's and have seen a gradual increase over the last 10 years. However how do we know this will continue.
The future of football might be streaming of every match resulting in many choosing to watch matches at home or in the pub, with only 25% of the fanbase attending matches, so the present capacity might be plenty for the next few decades. There's the cost of living crisis and potential recession, so unless prices are made really cheap then some might not be able to afford to attend games and swap to watching every game on TV.

So might be wise to hang fire for 3 or 4 years to see where the future football popularity and attendance trends are heading.
 
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Carlton Blade said:
I like Bramall Lane. In comparison to other clubs of a similar standing it's one of the best grounds there is.

I definitely don't see a need for a bigger capacity. Our average crowd this century (excluding the lockdown season) is 22,403. Remove the L1 years and it's still only 23,468. Even further, take the Warnock Prem season as a starting point for "new" crowds and we still only average 26,700 outside of L1

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Do you think it’s beneficial taking a sample of 22 years though, to reach an investment decision? On the flip side, the club would be forecasting out any return on investment over a shorter period of time.

5 years would be a fairer view to take a look at crowd trends from (adjusted for lockdown). The world is a far more different place than in 2000. I mean, Wednesday are no longer massive and getting 50,000 every week… 😆
 
S64 Blade said:
Do you think it’s beneficial taking a sample of 22 years though, to reach an investment decision? On the flip side, the club would be forecasting out any return on investment over a shorter period of time.

5 years would be a fairer view to take a look at crowd trends from (adjusted for lockdown). The world is a far more different place than in 2000. I mean, Wednesday are no longer massive and getting 50,000 every week… 😆
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I took 3 samples to be fair, the most relevant one being top 2 divisions attendance since 06/07.

But even if you only used 19/20, our best season since 74/75 I didn’t see evidence that we were turning people away?

I’m all up for improvement of facilities but I don’t see a need for increased capacity

Pigonomics says they need a 80k stadium
 
Wouldn’t surprise me if the Prince contracted the Bin Ladens to make it happen if it were to ever do so.

Edit, I don’t think we need a capacity increase btw, but some of the facilities are very tired. The Kop & away end need tearing down & rebuilding. The other 2 stands are fine for the time being.
 
Carlton Blade said:
I took 3 samples to be fair, the most relevant one being top 2 divisions attendance since 06/07.

But even if you only used 19/20, our best season since 74/75 I didn’t see evidence that we were turning people away?

I’m all up for improvement of facilities but I don’t see a need for increased capacity

Pigonomics says they need a 80k stadium
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But the other 2 samples were a mish-mash of timeframes chopped out of the 22 years.

Let’s also not lose sight of the future either. Not all decisions need to be reactive, they can be proactive based, on a forecasted growth.

If we’re looking at past data, our average attendance in our last promotion season was 26k. This season, it’ll be 28k at least, if we go up. We can reasonably assume a similar growth in demand of 4k+ if we return to the PL, as we did last time. Meaning, we won’t have enough seats. That’s also disregarding the casual floating fans who may wish to take in the big games and the potential to offer away fans a slightly increased capacity.

That said, and as I posted earlier in the thread, I’d hold fire on expanding for now, too, given the macroeconomic pressures that’ll no doubt impact the club, but more evidently the fans’ ability to be able to afford to attend games.

So I think we agree, but for differing reasons.
 
ShropsBlade said:
I keep seeing the argument “if we expand we can give the away fans 6k etc” How many premier league clubs give away sides 6k tickets ? I don’t think any give more than 3 thousand.

As mentioned I think the biggest priority is the kop having a bit of a facelift , posts removed (would open up a few hundred restricted view seats) , indoor concourse on the back of the exits.Instead of the huge outdoor walk to the bar that’s further than a Wetherspoons bog.

South stand could maybe have a glass reclad , but would like too see it with a proper upgrade eventually.But as mentioned we’d need to be a premier league mainstay for this to happen.
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It's because there are certain people that still think our inability to sell out in a heap of shit with more restricted view seats than unrestricted seats means we can't sell out a bigger stadium

Like Sunderland couldn't sell out Roker Park

Middlesboro couldn't sell out Ayresome Park

Derby couldn't sell out the Baseball Ground

Reading couldn't sell out Elm Park

Brighton couldn't sell out the Goldstone Stadium

Chelsea couldn't sell out the old Stamford Bridge

Man City couldnt sell out the old Maine Road

Even Celtic and Rangers couldn't sell out the old Celtic Park and Ibrox

But they all went ahead with ambitious plans, and the fans came back

In terms of population Sheffield is a huge area, even if it is backward, and United have the fanbase.

It's just that the "non attenders" need to be turned into "attenders"

Sitting behind a pole and preferring to piss your pants rather than use a toilet won't get them to start attending.

One of the many reasons why the fans of all the other clubs listed above didn't go to games
 
S64 Blade said:
But the other 2 samples were a mish-mash of timeframes chopped out of the 22 years.

Let’s also not lose sight of the future either. Not all decisions need to be reactive, they can be proactive based, on a forecasted growth.

If we’re looking at past data, our average attendance in our last promotion season was 26k. This season, it’ll be 28k at least, if we go up. We can reasonably assume a similar growth in demand of 4k+ if we return to the PL, as we did last time. Meaning, we won’t have enough seats. That’s also disregarding the casual floating fans who may wish to take in the big games and the potential to offer away fans a slightly increased capacity.

That said, and as I posted earlier in the thread, I’d hold fire on expanding for now, too, given the macroeconomic pressures that’ll no doubt impact the club, but more evidently the fans’ ability to be able to afford to attend games.

So I think we agree, but for differing reasons.
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I excluded L1 because it's an outlier. That was the first time we'd been that low for 23 years). I do thing 06/07 onwards (exc L1) is a fair sample of where we are as a club. If we had a sustained period in the Championship (say 6 years) of finishing somewhere between 4th and 14th I think it's fair to say we'd be around 23-25k average crowd? If we went up I do disagree that we'd be at 32k though. Last time around was the absolute peak in interest in the club. Managed by a fan, a national success story etc. And we weren't turning people away. My view is a sustained, Palace, Burnley style PL stint would see us hover at 28-capacity as an average

But I 100% agree with your rationale about why investment at the moment would be exceedingly risky too
 
JJBlade said:
It's because there are certain people that still think our inability to sell out in a heap of shit with more restricted view seats than unrestricted seats means we can't sell out a bigger stadium

Like Sunderland couldn't sell out Roker Park

Middlesboro couldn't sell out Ayresome Park

Derby couldn't sell out the Baseball Ground

Reading couldn't sell out Elm Park

Brighton couldn't sell out the Goldstone Stadium

Chelsea couldn't sell out the old Stamford Bridge

Man City couldnt sell out the old Maine Road

Even Celtic and Rangers couldn't sell out the old Celtic Park and Ibrox

But they all went ahead with ambitious plans, and the fans came back

In terms of population Sheffield is a huge area, even if it is backward, and United have the fanbase.

It's just that the "non attenders" need to be turned into "attenders"

Sitting behind a pole and preferring to piss your pants rather than use a toilet won't get them to start attending.

One of the many reasons why the fans of all the other clubs listed above didn't go to games
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Leaving spaces just makes your posts more annoying
 

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