Points deductions

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Miffa69

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Not that I’m getting carried away following yesterday…….. but has there been any indication as to if / when Forest & Everton get hit with points deductions??
 

Constantly Optimistic... said:
I heard April. Why they have to wait 2 months and leave everyone guessing I have no idea. Perhaps waiting to make sure both are safe and the deduction can be made smaller to keep them up....
Click to expand...

With the independent regulator threatening to take over the control of the PL
They are keen to look like they are governing themselves properly by punishing clubs for financial overspending (basically cheating).

However historically the PL don't like the idea of relegating clubs based on non football events.

I reckon they'll see where Everton and Forest are in the league and try to punish them by 10 points.
They'll be hoping both clubs are about 20 points clear of relegation, so the harsh punishment will be accepted because it won't have any real effect.

There's the other aspect of "appeals".
You would expect whatever points punishment is given, it will be reduced.
Simon Jordan said the other week, he expects Everton to receive another 6 points punishment, taking it to 16 points.
Then he expects it to be reduced to the current 10 points on appeal.
 
Constantly Optimistic... said:
I heard April. Why they have to wait 2 months and leave everyone guessing I have no idea. Perhaps waiting to make sure both are safe and the deduction can be made smaller to keep them up....
Click to expand...
I would assume its so their solicitors can prepare a defence.
 
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
 
Addison said:
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
Click to expand...
So you're saying it's going to get messy whichever way the sanctions or none sanctions happen to fall. Money, it IS the root of all evil.
 
Much as I think Wilder will help us improve & get more points, I honestly can’t see us getting much more than around 20 to 28 pts by the end of the season. So, based on that I’m glad that it will be Luton that will probably be the unlucky ones this time around. I can see Forest & Everton getting any points deducted being reduced on appeal.
 
Addison said:
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
Click to expand...
Great summary, thank you for putting all this in the correct perspective with accurate knowledge. Just means we will more than likely be relegated if we are counting on FFP to save us. We know how counterclaims go, by relegated teams from history. So we still need to win minimum 10 games in total. Probably not doable unless there is a sudden resurgence in form after the Luton game.
 
Addison said:
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
Click to expand...
Interesting that Richard Masters said this week that the League does have a structure of points deductions as decided by the League board but this has not been made public. They have provided the appeals panel with this structure. Everton's defence is tthe punishment is too harsh. But if it was in line with this structure they may struggle.
 

Addison said:
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
Click to expand...
I wasnt aware they could apply to CAS?
 
MobileBlade said:
Interesting that Richard Masters said this week that the League does have a structure of points deductions as decided by the League board but this has not been made public. They have provided the appeals panel with this structure. Everton's defence is tthe punishment is too harsh. But if it was in line with this structure they may struggle.
Click to expand...
This was the statement made in the original independent commissions findings;

"The size of the points deduction is to be determined by Everton’s culpability.

There is no fixed formula to be applied: we are required to determine the extent of the culpability, and from that to determine the points deduction. That requires the exercise of our discretion as a specialist panel, and a determination to be made based on all the facts of the case."

That suggests the structure Masters refers to was not available at the original Independent Commission. If Masters is correct in his assertion it has been disclosed then it will be interesting to read the Appeals Commissions thoughts on this and when exactly it was agreed by the EPL Board.
 
Addison said:
An application can be made to the CAS in respect of any sporting dispute. Whether they consider it valid remains to be seen.
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that in these matters, there is no recourse to CAS?! I thought I read it somewhere. Fair enough. Going to drag on forever.
 
Addison said:
This was the statement made in the original independent commissions findings;

"The size of the points deduction is to be determined by Everton’s culpability.

There is no fixed formula to be applied: we are required to determine the extent of the culpability, and from that to determine the points deduction. That requires the exercise of our discretion as a specialist panel, and a determination to be made based on all the facts of the case."

That suggests the structure Masters refers to was not available at the original Independent Commission. If Masters is correct in his assertion it has been disclosed then it will be interesting to read the Appeals Commissions thoughts on this and when exactly it was agreed by the EPL Board.
Click to expand...
I'm sure I read at the time that they didn't have a set formula as the Premier league clubs had voted against it so they used the one the efl appointed independent inquiry used against Sheffield Wednesday
 
Addison said:
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
Click to expand...
A very clear summary of a complicated situation - thanks.
Imagine the ( albeit unlikely) scenario that the outcome of any points deduction results in either Everton or Florist finishing in the bottom 3, with us in 17th, after the final whistle of the last match of the season.We then have the unholy prospect of the ultimate ‘VAR’ delay, while we all wait on tenterhooks for a week after the last ball is kicked, to find out who is relegated. While I would dearly love to stay up as a result of this process, a large part of me hopes that this scenario does not materialise - the week of waiting for the inevitable invocation of Sod’s Law would be horrendous! 😂
What a pigs ear the EPL has made of this.
 
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With the appeal process ending after the season, would it be likely that further deductions are added on to the start of next season than applying this season?
 
They should do what they do in rugby when appealing red cards.. you have the right to appeal but if you lose, additional sanctions will be applied such as automatic relegation or additional points deduction.

That would make clubs think twice trying to weasel out of it by tieing it all up in red tape.
 
1987 said:
With the appeal process ending after the season, would it be likely that further deductions are added on to the start of next season than applying this season?
Click to expand...
No it has to be concluded then
 
jono_t2000 said:
They should do what they do in rugby when appealing red cards.. you have the right to appeal but if you lose, additional sanctions will be applied such as automatic relegation or additional points deduction.

That would make clubs think twice trying to weasel out of it by tieing it all up in red tape.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, but do you think that the representative governing bodies of those two organisations are of common purpose and transparency?
 
Frank the tank said:
I'm sure I read at the time that they didn't have a set formula as the Premier league clubs had voted against it so they used the one the efl appointed independent inquiry used against Sheffield Wednesday
Click to expand...
The EPL relied upon the precedent of Sheffield Wednesday FC v The Football League in their evidence to the original Independent Commission;

" a sporting advantage is to be inferred so that anything other than a points deduction would be simply inappropriate."

Everton argued for a fine only. The commission found in favour of the EPL. The principle of points deductions as a sanction for PSR/FFP breaches was accepted. The EFL formula matrix whereby our neighbours had a sanction applied of 9 points reduced down to six for cooperation was not adopted.

Don't think the Clubs have been given the opportunity to vote on any formula yet although they did vote for PSR to be incorporated into their rules.
 
Addison said:
The EPL relied upon the precedent of Sheffield Wednesday FC v The Football League in their evidence to the original Independent Commission;

" a sporting advantage is to be inferred so that anything other than a points deduction would be simply inappropriate."

Everton argued for a fine only. The commission found in favour of the EPL. The principle of points deductions as a sanction for PSR/FFP breaches was accepted. The EFL formula matrix whereby our neighbours had a sanction applied of 9 points reduced down to six for cooperation was not adopted.

Don't think the Clubs have been given the opportunity to vote on any formula yet although they did vote for PSR to be incorporated into their rules.
Click to expand...
I've obviously got mixed up but you do hear so much misinformation around these things it's difficult to know what's right
 

1987 said:
With the appeal process ending after the season, would it be likely that further deductions are added on to the start of next season than applying this season?
Click to expand...
The EPL have stated they are fast tracking the PSR disciplinary process to ensure sanctions are applied to the current season. Unfortunately the decision making process concludes one week after the end and leaves itself open to challenge.

Florists sanction if applied will be their first applied during the current season based on 1 accounting period under PSR.

Evertons current 10 points deduction does not relate to the same accounting period although the new breach to be heard by 5 April does as with Florist. There is the potential for an argument to be constructed that a club can not be sanctioned twice in one season for the same offence. At present that is a claim that has not been raised but may well be if Evertons sanctions increase rather than decrease.
 
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