Points deductions

[Champagneblade]

Never understood why when making a rule saying don’t do this, why at the same time they fail to advise what happens if you do.

There would be no need for much of a process if the rule states “avoid losses of 105m over a three year period and for every 1m over, you lose 1 point”.

How hard is that to remove the ambiguity?

I also don’t see why you should get points back for cooperation. Cooperation should be expected. You don’t get time off your sentence if you didn’t resist arrest, you may get time added if you did.

It should be the same here.

I don’t see what mitigating circumstances there are for Everton to get less than the original 10 points of the first decision, unless some glaring omission has been brought to light. The appeal seems to be based on “come on Guv, that’s a bit harsh. Make it lower”.

If they broke the rules on spending, they were allowed assets they were not entitled to therefore they should lose points proportionally to that.

1 point for every 1m over, simple.

As for Forest, the dates are the dates. You can’t ignore them because if you wait longer you may get a better deal. That’s the whole thing. It’s during the period in question. You don’t get tomboy pay your mortgage because you’ve got some money coming in 5 days afterwards. Same here: if Wednesday’s case is being references then good, because dates were important there and they should be here too.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I would assume its so their solicitors can prepare a defence.

There's a novel idea. I wonder if Burnley's solicitors, or for that matter Sheffield United's solicitors, could do the same job for our clubs?

If it's a battle between us two for the 17th place after Forest and Everton finish on minus points, you can have it. I don't see myself watching another season with VAR calling the shots.

 

[Melbourne Blade]

It's all a shit show which the governing bodies have brought on in the first place introducing FFP. I agree with it, however, punishments needed to be set out and agreed from the start to limit appeals. What if appeals are successful, can relegated clubs then decide to enter into litigation based on an incorrect and/or unfair decision to limit points deductions? Would we sue the clubs or the EPL? It's fucked

 

[Keen Blade]

The EPL have stated they are fast tracking the PSR disciplinary process to ensure sanctions are applied to the current season. Unfortunately the decision making process concludes one week after the end and leaves itself open to challenge.

Florists sanction if applied will be their first applied during the current season based on 1 accounting period under PSR.

Evertons current 10 points deduction does not relate to the same accounting period although the new breach to be heard by 5 April does as with Florist. There is the potential for an argument to be constructed that a club can not be sanctioned twice in one season for the same offence. At present that is a claim that has not been raised but may well be if Evertons sanctions increase rather than decrease.

Highly significant that the process is set to conclude a week after the season ends - the agenda being so transparent as to be risible - EPL says one thing and clearly intends the opposite - appeal decision cannot possibly remain untainted by the final table position & points situation.
The appeal tribunal is highly likely to be faced with a decision to relegate or not.
A filthy farce.
There is hardly any prospect of Forest or Everton being relegated by points deductions imposed henceforth.
I reckon the current table is the effective one against which dem Blades must battle.

 

[Champagneblade]

Highly significant that the process is set to conclude a week after the season ends - the agenda being so transparent as to be risible - EPL says one thing and clearly intends the opposite - appeal decision cannot possibly remain untainted by the final table position & points situation.
The appeal tribunal is highly likely to be faced with a decision to relegate or not.
A filthy farce.
There is hardly any prospect of Forest or Everton being relegated by points deductions imposed henceforth.
I reckon the current table is the effective one against which dem Blades must battle.

We need to win games against Forest and Everton and put together some sort of run so that they are faced with both or either only staying up if they receive no punishment at all I.e. if within a couple of points at least and the expectation in the media is say 10 points, then it will be difficult to say “ah well, let’s just call it a point”.

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

In all seriousness if Everton and Forest get deducted say 30 points each, would you want to stop up?

It's a funny one this , like once we're down I'm not interested to come back up with the prince in charge. But the chance to stay up this season? Yes Id want to stop up, because even we can't plead pauper with back to back PL tv money cash injections. Surely...

 

[S64 Blade]

I sense another “it wouldn’t be fair on the fans” situation arising.

 

[A Storm of Blades]

It would interesting to know why there isn’t account taken for a second offence (if that is the case)

 

[Lightsoot]

Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.

William Carey worth you reading this great explanation.

 

[Gin&Juice]

Foresee an absolute shitshow this summer. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was deferred. PL are going to have to manoeuvre this one.

 

[Lightsoot]

Impossible to know how it might go. I think we need to take it a game at a time, with the hope / belief that we can go on a miracle run and climb above Luton, Forest and maybe Palace ‘organically’.

Ie presume Everton’s 10pts might be reduced / quashed, and that Forest’s points deduction may be minimal, if any at all.

We need to play with the mentality that we’re in dire straits and won’t get any favours.

 

[Champagneblade]

It would interesting to know why there isn’t account taken for a second offence (if that is the case)

And surely the second offence should be dealt with more harshly?

Clearly not learning their lesson or thought themselves having impunity.

 

[shorehamview]

You can easily see a scenario where the body deciding the points to be deducted looks at the table and deducts just enough points to leave the offending clubs in 16th and 17th.

As for the fans moaning about it being unfair to them, you didn’t moan when your club was overspending, did you? You didn’t wave signs about saying that it was unfair that your club was allowed to spend more than they were entitled to, did you? You weren’t holding marches and waving banners pointing out that other clubs had stuck to the rules but you didn’t, did you?

Everton and Forest fans moaning about it being unfair on them should hang their heads in shame. As for City fans, I hope they enjoy their titles that massively overspending has bought for them. And I trust they enjoy the hopefully enormous sanctions that their overseas oil money supported club should rightfully get.

Champions of wildly overspending to achieve European success bought with the oil-stained money of a sportswashing state ruled by a federal monarchy with a very dodgy human rights record, we’ll never sing that.

 

[mattbianco1]

In all seriousness if Everton and Forest get deducted say 30 points each, would you want to stop up?

No. I want us relegated to the Isthmian League

 

[shorehamview]

No. I want us relegated to the Isthmian League

I’ve never been to Isthmia. Isn’t it in Greece? At least we’ll have the nice weather.

 

[Dkc]

You can easily see an end-of-season scenario where clubs go into games not knowing the points total they need to avoid relegation. If makes a difference to tactics if you know that you need three points to avoid the drop / a draw will keep you up.

Final round of matches is Sunday May 19, so at least we'll know what the punishments are (pending appeal) 4-5 games before the end of the season. But given the appeal process could reduce the deduction, how can a team celebrate e.g. finishing two points above a bottom three of Forest, Everton and Burnley?

Stakes are high for both clubs under investigation. Relegation would probably push Everton into administration. Would the PL allow this? Both clubs, if relegated, are sure to pursue all legal avenues, including CAS.

Incidentally didn't McCabe go to CAS and win after the Tevez affair`? That means there is a precedent for it hearing such cases at least. But I don't think CAS has the power to order the PL to re-instate a relegated club - it didn't in our case, it awarded compensation.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Well I don’t see the point of speculating on what they may or may not get.
Us, Burnley and Luton are the only 3 clubs who really stand to benefit in any way, so the rest of em probably don’t really care.
United have been dreadful for 95% of the season so far, and if we are honest would struggle to get past half the league below as things stand.
We don’t deserve to be here with what we have put out every week, and given the owner can’t fund the club in the league below we can have every belief that if we were to be handed some sort of free pass in stopping up over Everton and Forest we would repeat the atrocious efforts in recruitment and investing in the team and be equally as bad as we are now.

So what do I expect? At best we get 20 points total. Likelihood being we surrender more points to teams we hoped to beat while getting a few more thumpings on the way. We will face the embarrassment of being so bad that even though they have points deducted we can’t get near their total.
We go down regardless.

Last point- The owner and his “team” of executives really should be ashamed of their efforts.

 

[finlaytheblade]

No. I want us relegated to the Isthmian League

The all points deduction needs to be sorted before the final few matches( probably won't though) will be ridiculous situation if so many variables still in the air going into last game or two not knowing how you stand.
One thing for sure Forest will surely get some points deducted unless Everton. get a reprieve.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Forest spent around £150mil last summer in their first season and ended up in a relegation fight, staying up with one game to go.

This summer they spent at least another £100mil and have ended up in another relegation fight.

Didn't they know that you could spend just £25mil to end up in a relegation fight like us? What a bunch of idiots!

 

[Yellarbellyblade]

You can easily see a scenario where the body deciding the points to be deducted looks at the table and deducts just enough points to leave the offending clubs in 16th and 17th.

As for the fans moaning about it being unfair to them, you didn’t moan when your club was overspending, did you? You didn’t wave signs about saying that it was unfair that your club was allowed to spend more than they were entitled to, did you? You weren’t holding marches and waving banners pointing out that other clubs had stuck to the rules but you didn’t, did you?

Everton and Forest fans moaning about it being unfair on them should hang their heads in shame. As for City fans, I hope they enjoy their titles that massively overspending has bought for them. And I trust they enjoy the hopefully enormous sanctions that their overseas oil money supported club should rightfully get.

Champions of wildly overspending to achieve European success bought with the oil-stained money of a sportswashing state ruled by a federal monarchy with a very dodgy human rights record, we’ll never sing that.

Say what you really feel

 

[FriethBlade]

Just a point of 'order' here. A lot on here and most in the media talk about the Premier League as if its some kind of autonomous body. It is the 20 clubs in the PL who all have representation at every meeting and all of whom decide the rules, regulations and sanctions. It's not some secret cabal run by 'masters of the football universe' it is the clubs themselves, including us.

Apparently the reason there is no set sanction for overspending is the clubs thought a set sanction would make it more likely some clubs would overspend as they could decide 'whether it was worth it'. By having no set sanction they thought they would be less likely to overspend as it could result in a massive deduction. This is why Evertons appeal should be doomed to failure as there was a democratic vote to leave the sanctions undetermined.

 

[WF10BLADE]

Last point- The owner and his “team” of executives really should be ashamed of their efforts.

Deadbat your end year review for the owners is already written.

 

[ekke287]

I think we should aim to win all our games instead of relying on what may or may not happen elsewhere.

Then we’ve done all we can do come the end of the season, and if some team gets deducted and ends up below us so be it.

 

[Dkc]

If we were to avoid relegation due to other teams' points deductions, I think we'd be favourites for the drop the following season. However, a second season in the PL would pay us a huge amount of money, not only due to the annual payment, but also through additional parachute payments. It would keep the club afloat and competitive for a while even if we did go down next season.

 

[Bobby b]

If Everton are set to get a second points deduction for other offenses then it's possible that Manchester city will finish below us, because you can bet that Evertons lawyers will be mentioning them

 

[Ldn_Rd_Blades]

In all seriousness if Everton and Forest get deducted say 30 points each, would you want to stop up?

No. I’d be worried I’d do my self an injury laughing so hard

 

[William Carey]

If Everton are set to get a second points deduction for other offenses then it's possible that Manchester city will finish below us, because you can bet that Evertons lawyers will be mentioning them

Man City will not be relegated. I doubt anyone has the balls to do that. I’ve been reading some articles about it and it states that if City get relegated then it would “break the transfer market” and also that the 115 charges is too time-consuming to deal with opposed to Everton, who only has 1 charge so they get punished.

 

[Addison]

Just a point of 'order' here. A lot on here and most in the media talk about the Premier League as if its some kind of autonomous body. It is the 20 clubs in the PL who all have representation at every meeting and all of whom decide the rules, regulations and sanctions. It's not some secret cabal run by 'masters of the football universe' it is the clubs themselves, including us.

Apparently the reason there is no set sanction for overspending is the clubs thought a set sanction would make it more likely some clubs would overspend as they could decide 'whether it was worth it'. By having no set sanction they thought they would be less likely to overspend as it could result in a massive deduction. This is why Evertons appeal should be doomed to failure as there was a democratic vote to leave the sanctions undetermined.

Good point that all the so called expert M.P's on the Government select committee deliberately overlook as they pursue their own agenda of publicly berating Richard Masters. If some of them spent the time researching the detail in the Independent Commissions ruling on Everton they would understand the process better. Unfortunately thats in the too difficult box so its better to express outrage to get the media coverage. The fact Masters had to apologise for calling Florist and Everton small was pathetic.

The EPL is run as a private company with all 20 clubs having 1 share each and equal voting rights. They voted for PSR to be implemented not the EPL board who act in a management and advisory capacity. They did so under threat of government regulation. There has to be a majority of 14 clubs to pass any resolution so its fair to say they can not bleat about the process as they themselves voted for it.

The disciplinary process is outlined in detail in the EPL handbook under rule 50. Again any self respecting authority on the process would have taken the time to understand this. There are flaws in its construction imo but it will be the basison which legal counselwill construct arguments for and against the

 

[finlaytheblade]

Man City will not be relegated. I doubt anyone has the balls to do that. I’ve been reading some articles about it and it states that if City get relegated then it would “break the transfer market” and also that the 115 charges is too time-consuming to deal with opposed to Everton, who only has 1 charge so they get punished.

That is no excuse! City & Chelsea charges are historical . May take a while to sort out.Its the here and now that matters to us and the rest of the clubs.

EFL clubs have an interest too ! Plenty of clubs suffered with points deductions with Millers taking a bad hit a number of years ago.
As Mccabe said all those years ago " we play for points and that is the only sanction that hurts the offenders"

Football is the game whatever league a team plays in.

 

[Bobby b]

Man City will not be relegated. I doubt anyone has the balls to do that. I’ve been reading some articles about it and it states that if City get relegated then it would “break the transfer market” and also that the 115 charges is too time-consuming to deal with opposed to Everton, who only has 1 charge so they get punished.

I agree, although it's often said that nobody's above the law, it's a lot more difficult, if not impossible to take down the big dogs, like the Manchester citys or Donald Trumps of this world.