New stadium at the Lane?

[I should coco]

Nobody forces you to sit on the kop and you get what you pay for.

Absolutely spot on. If you want covered toilets with warm water, soft towels and a better selection of half time snacks, go tot the Lyceum.

The leg room meant the Kop must have been designed exclusively for children

It wasn't really 'designed', they just did it on the cheap by concreting over the existing steps, so that ever two standing steps became one seated row. I'm 6'2" with long legs and so either sit at an angle or with my legs wide apart like some gagging-for-it slapper. It's not great and I've been far more comfortable at Derby/Blackburn/Bolton/Wigan etc but........

Would I swap? Would I hell. Our Kop is over a 100 years old and the ground 150 years. That means we have to make some sacrifices if we want to keep the best tradditional old ground in the country. If they cantilevered it to remove the pillars and widened the rear stilted walkway to put a few more bogs at that level, then that would do me.

Let's not run before we can walk. A couple of weeks ago we had people asking what our team in the Championship would be. Now we've got idiots wetting themselves about 50k in the Premier. What next, concern about where the Barcelona and Real Madrid bus will park?

We are still in the third division. One step at a time gentlemen please!

 

[I should coco]

Yes but there's nowhere for potential Thai owners to land their helicopter.

Do you think a deep sea tuna trawler could make it in from Tinsley on the canal and then up the Sheaf? The culverted bits near the station might be a bit of a challenge.....

 

[blade too long]

We have no need for a bigger stadium and never will unless we become a top 4 PL club.

well ARSENAL had a 3800 stadium at highbury and reguarly never had capacity gates , some seasons barely averaging 35k , but moved to a 80 k stadium and fill it , yet havent won the league since

so theres proof if you build it , they will come

a lot of the 25000 extra supporters go for the occasion

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

At the risk of being the doomsayer, I can't foresee us doing anything to the ground until we're an established PL team with a healthy season ticket waiting list.

Fair play to the shite in S6, they've not wasted a penny on redevelopment of the shit tip and have invested every last penny to try to get promoted.

As unromantic as it is, I'd rather see us spend £millions on an African journeyman from the Bundesliga to try to get us promoted before we start fiddling with Corporate Boxes and TV studios...

 

[Grizzly blade]

Our biggest problem is the safety/segregation bollocks that is effectively costing 3k seats. We need a settled solution to that first and foremost. The problem with the Bramall lane stand is the exits and turnstiles being close and fans from opposing sides exiting together.
At Hull this happens too, but there is a fenced area which separates fans as they leave. We obviously can't do this as it's a main road most the time. This is the benefit of a modern built and planned stadium.

Solution....I honestly don't see an easy one. Separate the John street?? Possibly....but wouldn't sit right for me.
Easiest would be to give away fans the new corner. Has its own entrances far enough away from the bottom and upper tier. But then this too creates issues and netting would be everywhere. But then bottom tier and upper would be all Blades....so bonus.
However, still leaves the issue of fans mingling on Bramall lane.

So, this is why we need to look at ways of increasing home areas now....not next season or after. There will be enough games next season where opponents will more or less fill the Bramall lane end. Premier league....even more.
In my opinion we need enough room for 30k home fans alone going forward. Is that about 6k if we take the whole Bramall lane end out of it?
So rebuild the kop....proper filled in corners....sorted.
If we ever get to the point of needing more than that then a drastic solution would be needed which would be very costly. Reason being it would involve buying land beyond the current boundaries and building extra tiers on John street and south stand.
But that's not likely in my lifetime, and I'm mid forties.

 

[I should coco]

well ARSENAL had a 3800 stadium at highbury and reguarly never had capacity gates , some seasons barely averaging 35k , but moved to a 80 k stadium and fill it , yet havent won the league since

so theres proof if you build it , they will come

a lot of the 25000 extra supporters go for the occasion

Ahem......I think winning a couple of league titles under Graham and then shed loads of silver under Wenger might just have played a teensy weensy part in it.

Not sure that 50k will turn up week in week out at BDTBL, to see us parade the County Cup from 81/82 again.

 

[I should coco]

At Hull this happens too, but there is a fenced area which separates fans as they leave. We obviously can't do this as it's a main road most the time. This is the benefit of a modern built and planned stadium.

SYP and the Durham Constabulary have that stupid over the top temporary metal wall. If they can't use it for this, they ought to offer it Donald Trump for part of his wall and at least get a few bob back for us council tax payers.

 

[blade too long]

Ahem......I think winning a couple of league titles under Graham and then shed loads of silver under Wenger might just have played a teensy weensy part in it.

Not sure that 50k will turn up week in week out at BDTBL, to see us parade the County Cup from 81/82 again.

as I put in my post even winning titles before they werent filling highbury

similarly liverpool in the eighties often didnt pack anfield for every game, but because of tv coverage , now do with an increased capacity
despite not winning the league for 27 /8 years

liverpools average gate while winning 5 titles fluctuated between 31550 and 37000
but now they average 44000

 

[Sean Thornton]

well ARSENAL had a 3800 stadium at highbury and reguarly never had capacity gates , some seasons barely averaging 35k , but moved to a 80 k stadium and fill it , yet havent won the league since

so theres proof if you build it , they will come

a lot of the 25000 extra supporters go for the occasion

Apart from 1997 onwards when the averaged 37K+ or 38k every season until they moved?

Emirates doesn't hold 80000.

Other than that....

 

[Houston_Blade]

well ARSENAL had a 3800 stadium at highbury and reguarly never had capacity gates , some seasons barely averaging 35k , but moved to a 80 k stadium and fill it , yet havent won the league since

so theres proof if you build it , they will come

a lot of the 25000 extra supporters go for the occasion

Arsenal were a successful top 3/4 side in the PL long before they moved grounds and to compare London clubs with us is wrong. They have tonnes more ways to attract the casual fans for the odd game a season than we do plus the allure of watching top players week in week out on their side, not the opposition.

When Bramall Lane is bursting at the seems for 2/3 years and we have a sustainable PL team then add another few thousand, not before as we become another big stadium with no one in it (Hillsborough anyone?!).

Also I'm not sure Highbury ever had a capacity as low as 3,800, are you thinking of Fleetwood?!

 

[blade too long]

If it were me Id re apply for the kop rebuild and move it back 10 meters fill in the corners and alow in time bramall lane to move up 10 meters

 

[blade too long]

Apart from 1997 onwards when the averaged 37K+ or 38k every season until they moved?

Emirates doesn't hold 80000.

Other than that....

typo sorry 60k

nothing in highbury average attendances in this period didnt offer hope of filling a 60 k stadium

1994 30.563
1993 24.403
1992 31.905
1991 Champ 36.864
1990 33.713
1989 Champ 35.595
1988 29.910
1987 29.022
1986 23.824
see how attendances fell average of 5000 after not winning the title in 92

 

[Dkc]

If we ever get to the point of needing more than that then a drastic solution would be needed which would be very costly. Reason being it would involve buying land beyond the current boundaries and building extra tiers on John street and south stand.
But that's not likely in my lifetime, and I'm mid forties.

Moving the pitch and rebuilding the ground might be cheaper long-term than rebuilding the kop, buying all the houses on John St and replacing that. The BL footprint is big enough for a stadium with four big ends. In fact you could fit the Emirates in the footprint.

Regarding away fans and netter-off seats, I agree we need a solution fast. I can't understand why we can't just have away fans on the lower BL tier and home fans on the top, as it has been for years. Of course both sets of fans will exit onto the same street as is the case in thousands of other grounds. I can't see what the problem is unless it's capacity.

 

[blade too long]

Arsenal were a successful top 3/4 side in the PL long before they moved grounds and to compare London clubs with us is wrong. They have tonnes more ways to attract the casual fans for the odd game a season than we do plus the allure of watching top players week in week out on their side, not the opposition.

When Bramall Lane is bursting at the seems for 2/3 years and we have a sustainable PL team then add another few thousand, not before as we become another big stadium with no one in it (Hillsborough anyone?!).

Also I'm not sure Highbury ever had a capacity as low as 3,800, are you thinking of Fleetwood?!

well I remember us being top for a couple of months in 72 and we reguarly got 40 k plus
an even mediocre decent season finishing 10th we would piss 45000 in this tv era
we get a few students visit now , imagine how many would tuirn up for chelsea

 

[Sheffsteel]

Our biggest problem is the safety/segregation bollocks that is effectively costing 3k seats. We need a settled solution to that first and foremost. The problem with the Bramall lane stand is the exits and turnstiles being close and fans from opposing sides exiting together.
At Hull this happens too, but there is a fenced area which separates fans as they leave. We obviously can't do this as it's a main road most the time. This is the benefit of a modern built and planned stadium.

Solution....I honestly don't see an easy one. Separate the John street?? Possibly....but wouldn't sit right for me.
Easiest would be to give away fans the new corner. Has its own entrances far enough away from the bottom and upper tier. But then this too creates issues and netting would be everywhere. But then bottom tier and upper would be all Blades....so bonus.
However, still leaves the issue of fans mingling on Bramall lane.

So, this is why we need to look at ways of increasing home areas now....not next season or after. There will be enough games next season where opponents will more or less fill the Bramall lane end. Premier league....even more.
In my opinion we need enough room for 30k home fans alone going forward. Is that about 6k if we take the whole Bramall lane end out of it?
So rebuild the kop....proper filled in corners....sorted.
If we ever get to the point of needing more than that then a drastic solution would be needed which would be very costly. Reason being it would involve buying land beyond the current boundaries and building extra tiers on John street and south stand.
But that's not likely in my lifetime, and I'm mid forties.

The corner tier can't be used for away fans because one of the exits goes straight into the South stand.

Also the problem with any upgrade is the cost versus revenue equation
And then how long it would take to recoup that investment.

Don't think corners can be filled in because they are at totally different angles to the outher stands.
If we make them the same angle and join them on it would probably be the same capacity as the original plan but much more expensive to build and could take 80 years to recoup the investment.

Unfortunately improving a stadium is never a vanity project.
It's always a business decision and a means to improve income.
So cheaper the better is a driver UNLESS we are confident fans are willing to pay £40+ in a new Kop.

When anyone comes up with ideas to improve the stadium. It's a bit like Dragons Den. The reply would always be "Why should we build it? What are the profit projections and how many years will it take to recoup the investment". Then supporting evidence would be required to back up the figures.

 

[BushBlade]

typo sorry 60k

nothing in highbury average attendances in this period didnt offer hope of filling a 60 k stadium

1994 30.563
1993 24.403
1992 31.905
1991 Champ 36.864
1990 33.713
1989 Champ 35.595
1988 29.910
1987 29.022
1986 23.824
see how attendances fell average of 5000 after not winning the title in 92

Wasn't that because they were rebuilding a stand?

No teams had good attendances in the early nineties. What were ours in those days?

 

[Sean Thornton]

typo sorry 60k

nothing in highbury average attendances in this period didnt offer hope of filling a 60 k stadium

1994 30.563
1993 24.403
1992 31.905
1991 Champ 36.864
1990 33.713
1989 Champ 35.595
1988 29.910
1987 29.022
1986 23.824
see how attendances fell average of 5000 after not winning the title in 92

Why not use the figures from 1995 onwards, ie the years immediately before the move - because that was your point - when they were at or very near capacity every season? The small differences could be due to away fans as well.

Your comments about Liverpool in the eighties are also skewed. Nearly all clubs dropped. The economic climate had a major impact and when it started to improve, Liverpools attendances grew again.

Stop cherry picking because the full picture is out there and easy to find.

 

[metalblade]

There will be no improvements until we get to the premiership but by then McCabe will have the ground hemmed in with silly student flats and empty offices

 

[blade too long]

So cheaper the better is a driver UNLESS we are confident fans are willing to pay £40+ in a new Kop.

think that ideas been kicked in the head
value for money yes , but with modern building techniques you get good enough quality for a reasonable price

you only have to look what chesterfield and rotherham have done , both moved to new grounds both had some reasonable success , the fact theyve gone tits up of late is down to
board mis management
but they have decent grounds for shit teams

 

[blade too long]

Why not use the figures from 1995 onwards, ie the years immediately before the move - because that was your point - when they were at or very near capacity every season? The small differences could be due to away fans as well.

Your comments about Liverpool in the eighties are also skewed. Nearly all clubs dropped. The economic climate had a major impact and when it started to improve, Liverpools attendances grew again.

Stop cherry picking because the full picture is out there and easy to find.

yes I agree most clubs dropped , but do you think wed not filled the ground winnng title after title
plus all have greatly increased their capacities , and despite neither winning the title , fill their grounds now
nothing skewed in that statement

there is no argument that we as a regular prem side wouldnt fill a 44 45 k stadum on a regular basis , for the reason you pointed out
theres more money around now

95 onwards they got higher averages cos of tv interest like most , but still didnt fill grounds every week , and not always because of away fans as they never gave many seats anyhow

 

[blade too long]

Wasn't that because they were rebuilding a stand?

No teams had good attendances in the early nineties. What were ours in those days?

no I avoided the north bank rebuild seasons

 

[Grizzly blade]

Moving the pitch and rebuilding the ground might be cheaper long-term than rebuilding the kop, buying all the houses on John St and replacing that. The BL footprint is big enough for a stadium with four big ends. In fact you could fit the Emirates in the footprint.

Regarding away fans and netter-off seats, I agree we need a solution fast. I can't understand why we can't just have away fans on the lower BL tier and home fans on the top, as it has been for years. Of course both sets of fans will exit onto the same street as is the case in thousands of other grounds. I can't see what the problem is unless it's capacity.

We have enough space now to satisfy current and future demand if we really want it. We have yards free betweeen the stands and the pitch.
So move the pitch right up to the south stand and use the extra to build a bigger John street. However....I don't see that making a huge difference. If we want tiered stands, they need a much bigger footprint and I don't think it would be quite big enough. But we are talking capacities around 50k then which is way into the future if successful.

Just start with a new Kop.....cantilever roof....centre concourse and top concourse with facilities to accommodate tHe fans and running around the corners to fill in. Make it higher and deeper than the south stand, and ideally safe standing areas. Something that big would be spectacular and more than enough for now.

 

[BushBlade]

We're not in the Premier League, we're in L1. If we get promoted we still won't be in the championship. We'll be in the graveyard league for clubs that used to be big, a league that clubs routinely get trapped in for ten years plus.
We can worry about developing the stadium if and when we look like getting into the PL. I'm sure McCabe has it all figured out in his head, it's what he's good at.

 

[BushBlade]

no I avoided the north bank rebuild seasons

No you didn't. It opened in August 1993 for the 93/94 season.

 

[Sean Thornton]

yes I agree most clubs dropped , but do you think wed not filled the ground winnng title after title
plus all have greatly increased their capacities , and despite neither winning the title , fill their grounds now
nothing skewed in that statement

there is no argument that we as a regular prem side wouldnt fill a 44 45 k stadum on a regular basis , for the reason you pointed out
theres more money around now

95 onwards they got higher averages cos of tv interest like most , but still didnt fill grounds every week , and not always because of away fans as they never gave many seats anyhow

Arsenal were up at high thirty seven thousand and thirty eight thousand gates . You quoted gates from years before they moved not immediately before so it is skewed.

You now talk about not filling a ground after winning titles a few posts after quoting Liverpools gates dropping even though they were very succesful.

1971/72, our season average was I think 33k. How many "regular" 40k attendances were there?

 

[Sean Thornton]

No you didn't. It opened in August 1993 for the 93/94 season.

American spellchecker?

 

[Brian Equator]

Arsenal might get 60,000 crowds at the Emirates for PL matches but being located in a city with getting on for 9 million people in it probably helps.

 

[Sheffsteel]

A big factor in filling stadiums is PRICING.

Bradford C- charge £150 for season tickets with kids virtually free and now get 18K gates.

Huddersfield- charge £200 for season tickets with kids virtually free and now get 20K gates

West Ham- worried about filling a 56K stadium, so they charge £300 for a season ticket, at that price 1000's of neutrals sign up and they sell 55K season tickets.

Stoke- smaller support that us, plodding along mid table every season with little excitement but they sell all their 24K season tickets every season. Their season tickets have been frozen yet again next season at around £300 with kids virtually free.

A question
If we charged £200 on the Kop and £300 in the other stands with kids free when accompanied by an adult.
How many season tickets would we sell? I reckon easily 25 to 30,000 every season if we're plodding along. If we competed in the top half we'd sell 30 to 35K season tickets BUT only at cheap pricing.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

well I remember us being top for a couple of months in 72 and we reguarly got 40 k plus
an even mediocre decent season finishing 10th we would piss 45000 in this tv era
we get a few students visit now , imagine how many would tuirn up for chelsea

Got to draw them in the cup first.

 

[Dkc]

Not only Arsenal. Man City also got sub-30k crowds at Maine Rd before they were gifted a new stadium and the investment came flooding in. West Ham were pulling crowds in the low 20k's not too long ago. Now both these clubs pull 50k plus. Leeds used to get 40k in the prem, but more recently its been more like 25k. Sunderland are another example, as are Brighton.

There's no reason we couldn't pull 40k if we were in the top half of the PL - not for all games, but for the big ones - if our stadium could accomodate crowds that size