The signings Wilder wants...

[David Lee's first touch]

There's absolutely no excuse for the owners of Sheffield United put together a budget that isn't at least the 2nd highest in the division. It's perfectly possible to have that while at the same time avoiding the ludicrous money wasting of previous seasons. I really don't think the owners understand that. Having a promotion budget, believe it or not, is how you get promoted. They can provide it if they want, but for some bizarre, unbelievable, nonsensical reason, you just know they're not going to.

Good post does this mean you might be thinking of cutting Wilder a bit of slack and giving him time or, will you do your usual stomp calling for his head in a few weeks.

 

[Barney]

Good post does this mean you might be thinking of cutting Wilder a bit of slack and giving him time or, will you do your usual stomp calling for his head in a few weeks.

Where's this claim come from anyway? Adkins was allowed to add 5 highly expensive signings to the squad he inherited, including a fee in the region of 500k. Adkins spent an amount of money that should have been enough to take a 5th placed side into 2nd, and he failed miserably. I wanted him out relatively soon in to the season because his recruitment had already occurred, and I could see as clear as day, from the performances on the pitch, that because of that, we were not going to get promoted. There was also the point that after such a horrible signing record to that point, it would have been absolute madness to keep him and allow him to sign a whole load more this summer. No hindsight here by the way, it was all called back in September and October.

Now with the squad in the position it's in, the manager is going to need much more of a budget. If as the summer, and then the season goes on, it transpires that he's being given the money, but he's wasting it, the manager will deserve criticism. If it transpires to be the case that actually he's been given very little to work with, it'll be down to the ownership. Pretty simple really. Of course, it's much easier to win promotion via the former route, which makes Clough and Adkins' failures all the more spectacular.

All the early signs this season, are suggesting that it's going to be the latter, and that it will be the clear and simple fact that the owners are not providing the budget that is required to rebuild the team on the scale that is needed, to league one promotion level.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Where's this claim come from anyway? Adkins was allowed to add 5 highly expensive signings to the squad he inherited, including a fee in the region of 500k. Adkins spent an amount of money that should have been enough to take a 5th placed side into 2nd, and he failed miserably. I wanted him out relatively soon in to the season because his recruitment had already occurred, and I could see as clear as day, from the performances on the pitch, that because of that, we were not going to get promoted. There was also the point that after such a horrible signing record to that point, it would have been absolute madness to keep him and allow him to sign a whole load more this summer. No hindsight here by the way, it was all called back in September and October.

Now with the squad in the position it's in, the manager is going to need much more of a budget. If as the summer, and then the season goes on, it transpires that he's being given the money, but he's wasting it, the manager will deserve criticism. If it transpires to be the case that actually he's been given very little to work with, it'll be down to the ownership. Pretty simple really. Of course, it's much easier to win promotion via the former route, which makes Clough and Adkins' failures all the more spectacular.

All the early signs this season, are suggesting that it's going to be the latter, and that it will be the clear and simple fact that the owners are not providing the budget that is required to rebuild the team on the scale that is needed, to league one promotion level.

Good answer.By the looks of it then your going to cut him some slack.He's going to need time because at the minute it doesn't seem like he's getting backed.

 

[Neil smith]

Unless I'm mistaken we've released 10 1st team players surely that frees up money or has Mcabe got his hands on it again ?

 

[Grizzly blade]

We may well have released first team players....and paid one and soon to be two or three more off.

But come on.....how does that transpire into McCabe getting his hands on the money?

I'm one of the boards biggest critics, but it's not because he's taking money out. It's the total ineptness of their decision making and the steaming piles of shit they spout that gets to me.

Just because we have freed space in the squad, doesn't mean we have money laid about. In case you hadn't realised we have been operating on massive losses for years. At least for now...a few weeks or whatever we aren't losing quite as much. That's about the only positive to take from the lack of players rocking up to play for us.

 

[metalblade]

I would explain it like this.
Yes, they indeed struggled. However they had a clear style of play and generally have for quite some time. They brought in a lot of young players and credit needs to be given to their board for sticking to their guns and not panicking...,and to the fans too but most of all the manager to I still the confidence in the players to do what they did.
It took time to click, but when it did they were away. And don't forget how crap this league really is....with play offs you can almost give sides a head start and then have a good run from January into the play offs.

So no....I doubt they spent a lot at all. But what they did spend was on the type of players we want now. They also seem to do well with loans....something for some reason we again struggle with. They find attacking flair and pace, while we loan old and slow recovering from injury! Frustrates the hell out of me.....but when you realise that this is because our board/owner refuse to allow those types of loan because we have a whole academy full of young players you can see why it happens.

Our managers are handicapped.....they are riding a blind horse in the national with three legs that's never jumped, and carrying 20st of weight in the saddle.

So now you are saying clubs don't need to spend £20m to get out of league one?

 

[BushBlade]

I would sooner we paid off all the crap and then did it our transfer business purely with loans and free transfers. We could at least then pay slightly higher wages (and I'm talking £4k not £2k so not throwing money around) to get some of the better players without a club.

That is exactly the approach that has got us into this mess in the first place.

 

[BushBlade]

So now you are saying clubs don't need to spend £20m to get out of league one?

He's talking about guaranteeing promotion in one season, from where we are now. It might not be quite that much but it's not far off.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Adkins spent an amount of money that should have been enough to take a 5th placed side into 2nd, and he failed miserably. .

minus £1million in transfer fees.

Who knows on the wage bill. But judging by the number of players in v the players out, again, probably a negative sum.

Raising a million quid in transfer fees and cutting the wage bill should easily be enough to take a 5th place team to 2nd.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

You will come to realise that I'm right on the majority of things. Getting yourself in to a discussion you didn't know much about yesterday was just a taster for you my good man.

Wow, that post has a real semblance of Nigel Farage’s final contribution in Brussels.


Ner ner ner ner ner.. I was right and you were wrong. You’re not laughing now…..


Although, you were indeed correct (broadly speaking) yesterday about what can and cannot be done when it comes to players whose contracts are expiring.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

All early optimism, as with Adkins last summer, is beginning to fade before a ball has been kicked. I don't blame Wilder for one minute, I actually sympathise with him, I feel like I've already read this season's script.

Same here. I had similar sympathy for Adkins too. Our problems go much deeper than the manager.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think the issues seem to be around the wages Hammond, Coutts, Woolford, Freeman, Brayford etc seem to be on. If we're looking to pay around league average for players (£1.5/2k pw) then getting shut of that lot would give us a very large squad!

I don’t think we will. That number takes into account players that came through the academies of teams like Crewe, Fleetwood etc. and those picked up from non-league. I think any new recruit at a club of our size with ambitions of promotion will be on more like £3-5k per week. I just think the new method is designed to stop us paying players £7-10k per week as it’s been suggested we’ve done that in the past.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

It's not so simple to say chuck some money in to go up.

He's done that over the years, and it's been wasted. And we are talking back to Robson and Blackwell here more than anything.

The reality is that to get this club up in one season will take around 20 million....and the newsflash is that it's been that way since Wilsons first season failure. That's 20 million including transfer fees and wages, because like it or not the going rate for the number of players we need to get this right will be close to that figure.

Now for the last 10 years we have been losing millions a season, and each season has got worse. I reckon our little 6 year stay in L1 will have cost £30m minimum. Now that's money covered by the owners, so there is no way they will chuck £20m straight in to get us up...because for them it is too much of a gamble.

The way this should have been done is to bring in young talent, scouted to fit the criterion set out and build gradually. If we had done that after that first failure we would have gone up last season by my guess.
Problem is, the board expect this while also expecting promotion too. Add to that the fan expectations and it's a recipe for disaster.

I would just like the club to admit this, be honest and make it clear where the club is. The manager too needs to come out now and tell everyone that he has a really huge job at hand that will take at least 2 seasons, and to sit back and write the coming season off. I know I have.
But they just keep doing everything half arsed...and it's crippling the club.

Agree to an extent but the “build gradually” part cannot happen when you sell your best player (sometimes 2 or 3 of your best players) every single season. Manager’s can’t build on what they have when the carpet is pulled from under them. They need to build on a team of the best remaining players strengthening other areas year on year. We fill one gap and create an even bigger one somewhere else. We did it last year. Got our 20 goal striker in Sharp but sold Murpy leaving a dearth of creativity, pace and width. As much as I like Sharp, the upgrade of him over Done or McNulty is not as big as the downgrade from Murphy to Woolford.

 

[Barney]

Wow, that post has a real semblance of Nigel Farage’s final contribution in Brussels.


Ner ner ner ner ner.. I was right and you were wrong. You’re not laughing now…..


Although, you were indeed correct (broadly speaking) yesterday about what can and cannot be done when it comes to players whose contracts are expiring.

That post was largely tongue in cheek, although the content was truthful...

 

[1danewhitehouse]

That's 20million extra on top of the current budget!

And it's my opinion, because crazy as it is, players as average as they are in this league want a minimum of 2k a week. So when you are looking at players who are considered the better ones in the league you can bet your mortgage it will be a much higher wage than that.

£5k per week x 22 players = £110,000.00


Multply that by 52 weeks £5.72million per year wage bill.


We can add in a few kids to supplement that and maybe take it up to £6.5million wage bill.


If we had 3.5 million to pay with for transfer fees/ signing on fees etc. then it should be entirely do-able within a budget of £10million.


I suppose if you add on management, coaching, scouting, academy staff etc. then it goes higher but for just players, a budget of £10million ought really to be enough.


The problem is that we sell the decent players, sack the manager and get a new manager who doesn’t want the players who are contracted meaning we have to pay them off and a chunk of the budget is gone.

 

[alcoblade]

Do you think changing the whole ethos of a club that is deeply engrained with up and at em football will happen overnight? Or indeed in one season.


Swansea, Bournemouth to name two.

Sigh. Forget overnight - rewind 10 (TEN) years, it was the same lines. The same examples of a few clubs who buck a trend.

I don't want us to get hung up on any ethos or style. Wining football - however that can be achieved.

I do agree about lack of patience - it's that that is killing us right now. :Lack of patience to wait for the right signings, hence Clough signing millions of pounds worth of utter guff. Then lack of patience to allow that overpaid utter guff to be cleared out and to get the budget on track. Then lack of patience to allow whichever manager to follow whichever style through.

And almost incredibly, but maybe not, you can see the same lack of patience being thrust onto Wilder.

UTB

 

[1danewhitehouse]

That's just laughable no way did the likes of Rotherham, Yoevil, Doncaster etc throw anything like that amount at getting out of this division

I think he meant to assemble a squad that is pretty certain to go up a la Bristol/ Charlton/ Wolves etc. rather than have a competitive squad that massively overachieves for 1 season to get promoted against the odds.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

No they didn't.....but they didn't need as many players as we do, and began their promotions and rise in L2...nice and steady as they did it too.
They had a decent style of play and built and improved gradually, something our board and fans will not stand.
So call it laughable if you like....but I don't find anything remotely funny about our 6th season in this league.

For way to long we've been a club of grafters, lacking talent and technical ability. Fans lacking the patience for possession football and demanding players run a lot, kick it forwards and get stuck in. And it's for this reason we need to replace so many players. It's the reason Clough tried to bring in so many....to replace the dross he inherited and the players he brought in who didn't work out (no manager has a 100% record in transfers)

So it's a simple choice...take our time and find our own Kemar Roofe...Tafazolli etc etc and sign em for peanuts (like Adams) or spend yer money and buy the finished article Roofe and Tafazolli (players just used as examples)

Obviously that's where the big bucks comes in.

Those players are not the finished article. They’re young lads who have done well enough for a year or two in league 2 to catch the eye as exciting prospects with great potential.


Buying the finished article would be going out and signing Beevers, McFadzean, Agard, Ajose, Hammil, Byrne, Killgallon etc.


But possibly, due to financial constraints, we need to go even less proven than the Roofe’s and Tafazolli’s of this world and look at conference players or those just breaking into league 2 teams and identifying potential there. Problem is you need a seriously good scouting set up to do that effectively.


Barnsley have done a good job of it with players like Mawson, Roberts, Hourihane etc. blended with some loans of young players from above like Brownhill, Fletcher, Isgrove etc. but there’s no way we would stick with a manager or strategy if we were bottom of this league in November as they were. But I think the likes of Mawson and Hourihane were quite highly rated league 2 players when Barnsley snapped them up. If we can’t match that sort of pulling power to sign the Tafazollis, Nelsons, Pierres of this wolrd, then we’re unlikely to succeed.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The 'doom and gloomers' are in their element for a while and look at them, they love every minute.

We have now released 12? players and saved 12? salaries. Common sense says Wilder will get a proportion of those savings to spend on immediate replacements, not 12 but maybe 6.

Then we have 6? transfer listed players still with us. Seems reasonable to me that Wilder will have to wait until say 4 of those go until he gets Stage 2 of his budget which will probably be a proportion of the commensurate savings, maybe all of the savings.

In his interview Wilder identifies with the approach.

Who's to say the club won't announce 4 new signings and a new Head Scout one day soon? Where will the 'doom and gloomers' disappear to for a few days then?

I think very few, maybe one or two, are “loving it”. The vast majority are sceptical, concerned, frustrated etc. that the squad is not taking shape as quickly as we would like, that a lot of decent players are getting snapped up and are worried, given our track record that we’ll miss the boat and once again fail to put together a squad capable of mounting a serious promotion challenge. Many of us also expected this and remained sceptical as the managerial change unfolded as we believe our issues run much deeper and acknowledge the need for other changes to be made. I don’t think that’s unreasonable at all. Doesn’t mean we definitely won’t get the players in that we need. As you say, it could all come together at once, but history suggests that’s unlikely.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Wow, that post has a real semblance of Nigel Farage’s final contribution in Brussels.


Ner ner ner ner ner.. I was right and you were wrong. You’re not laughing now…..


Although, you were indeed correct (broadly speaking) yesterday about what can and cannot be done when it comes to players whose contracts are expiring.

Even when he's got something correct which is very rare, he's still managed to make himself look like a twat.

 

[Barney]

minus £1million in transfer fees.

Who knows on the wage bill. But judging by the number of players in v the players out, again, probably a negative sum.

Raising a million quid in transfer fees and cutting the wage bill should easily be enough to take a 5th place team to 2nd.

In truth and on reflection, you've got a valid argument worthy of discussion there. However, even without Murphy, we had a team there that with 5 highly expensive players added to it, should have been enough to go up 3 places.

Not that this proves anything at all, and I realise I've just highlighted how the vast majority were wrong about Hammond, but even after selling Murphy, the general consensus seemed to be that roughly 4/5 players in key positions and we'd be challenging for automatic. Did you support that argument? I can't be bothered to look but I'll guess that you did.

 

[Barney]

Even when he's got something correct which is very rare, he's still managed to make himself look like a twat.

Eh? You were the one that it got it wrong...

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Even when he's got something correct which is very rare, he's still managed to make himself look like a twat.

You'll get no argument from me on that.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Eh? You were the one that it got it wrong...

I know re read my post. I was only going on what I'd been told now I've actually looked into it and what I was told and posted was horseshit. Lesson for you there good man it actually doesn't kill you to admit when your wrong.

 

[Barney]

and what I was told and posted was horseshit.

Indeed it was. And the lesson for you, is guess what? Don't believe everything you're told. And especially don't spout off about it, because generally you get pulled up, corrected and you end up looking a bit of a mug, as you did yesterday.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

1. However, even without Murphy, we had a team there that with 5 highly expensive players added to it, should have been enough to go up 3 places.

2. but even after selling Murphy, the general consensus seemed to be that roughly 4/5 players in key positions and we'd be challenging for automatic. Did you support that argument? I can't be bothered to look but I'll guess that you did.

1. Without Murphy, Doyle, Turner, Davies, Davies, Holt, etc. plus all of those he moved on during the season. He was also without Brayford for much of the season. Baxter too. Not just Murphy


2. Yes but only on the basis that they were all good signings in areas we needed. Unfortunately, no manager gets a 100% record. Also, after Murphy had gone, we only brought in Hammond and then swapped Collins for Baptiste near the end of the season. If you'd asked at the end of the previous season "if we sell Murphy, send back all the loans, release Doyle and Davies and bring in 4/5 players over the course of the season (mostly on loan), do you think we'll go up?" my answer would have been a very firm "no".

 

[Barney]

2. Yes but only on the basis that they were all good signings in areas we needed.

That's it then. Nothing else is relevant.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Indeed it was. And the lesson for you, is guess what? Don't believe everything you're told. And especially don't spout off about it, because generally you get pulled up, corrected and you end up looking a bit of a mug, as you did yesterday.

Doesn't bother me one bit. I would be bothered however if everytime I touched a keyboard my own thoughts made me look like the biggest twat/mug ever to grace this forum

 

[1danewhitehouse]

That's it then. Nothing else is relevant.

The fact that 4/5 good players would have been enough but we only signed Dean Hammond in October and Alex Baptiste in March is not relevant? Bizarre logic.

 

[Grizzly blade]

I see some are not reading my posts to the full.

It will take huge sums to turn this club around in one season.
The reason being we were when we went down, and still are a long way behind the rest in terms of youth quality, style of football and fitness with Pace. Barnsley had just come down from the champ, and to boot have always played in recent times a more passing and attacking style of play. Plus they have little pressure as they are considered a L1/champ yo yo club at best. We seem to think we belong in the premier league FFS!

And the reason we haven't been raiding lower leagues for young talent is twofold.

1. The board insist that our own youth be used, and can see no benefit of hiring youth from elsewhere when we have a very expensive academy churning out 10 kids a year to consider for pro deals. That is fact.

2. The risk in taking an untested kid from lower leagues is high, and we want promotion. So managers are reluctant to risk it and opt for what they think is a safer bet. Granted it's been spectacularly bad on that front, especially Adkins so going all out to get your own way on one or two (like Clough did) can back fire and get board members backs up. Crazy as it seems, the board seem to think it's better paying more for that star a higher league just to appease the fans and keep the excitement up.

Sadly, it keeps backfiring in them, you would think they would learn.

Forget transfer committees....tell the manager here's your budget. We want good football. A young squad and the game played with pace and excitement. We don't care where you get the players from, just get it done. If we don't see improvement year on year you will be sacked.
No demands, no minimum league positions just improvement year on year. We can't afford to buy our way up so it has to be that way.