The signings Wilder wants...

[sheffielder]

I see some are not reading my posts to the full.

It will take huge sums to turn this club around in one season.
The reason being we were when we went down, and still are a long way behind the rest in terms of youth quality, style of football and fitness with Pace. Barnsley had just come down from the champ, and to boot have always played in recent times a more passing and attacking style of play. Plus they have little pressure as they are considered a L1/champ yo yo club at best. We seem to think we belong in the premier league FFS!

And the reason we haven't been raiding lower leagues for young talent is twofold.

1. The board insist that our own youth be used, and can see no benefit of hiring youth from elsewhere when we have a very expensive academy churning out 10 kids a year to consider for pro deals. That is fact.

2. The risk in taking an untested kid from lower leagues is high, and we want promotion. So managers are reluctant to risk it and opt for what they think is a safer bet. Granted it's been spectacularly bad on that front, especially Adkins so going all out to get your own way on one or two (like Clough did) can back fire and get board members backs up. Crazy as it seems, the board seem to think it's better paying more for that star a higher league just to appease the fans and keep the excitement up.

Sadly, it keeps backfiring in them, you would think they would learn.

Forget transfer committees....tell the manager here's your budget. We want good football. A young squad and the game played with pace and excitement. We don't care where you get the players from, just get it done. If we don't see improvement year on year you will be sacked.
No demands, no minimum league positions just improvement year on year. We can't afford to buy our way up so it has to be that way.

I only speak for myself but I can never get past your first paragraph. It usually ends up spouting the same stuff.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think very few, maybe one or two, are “loving it”. The vast majority are sceptical, concerned, frustrated etc. that the squad is not taking shape as quickly as we would like, that a lot of decent players are getting snapped up and are worried, given our track record that we’ll miss the boat and once again fail to put together a squad capable of mounting a serious promotion challenge. Many of us also expected this and remained sceptical as the managerial change unfolded as we believe our issues run much deeper and acknowledge the need for other changes to be made. I don’t think that’s unreasonable at all. Doesn’t mean we definitely won’t get the players in that we need. As you say, it could all come together at once, but history suggests that’s unlikely.

Agree with most of that Dane. Maybe your "one or two" is probably "three or four" on here in my book.

No doubt the two signings to date have been positive but we all expected more by now I agree. Mind you, my 9 year old grandson wanted a trampoline a few months ago and he didn't get it until yesterday but he showed more patience than some on here; turned out he thinks his new trampoline is superb and well worth the wait; it's rained for three moths anyway as it happens!!

I'm not sure what more the club or the manager can do to manage expectations. Of course they hope for promotion but we are trimming the obscene wage bills of the past two seasons as anyone would expect. We have a major re-build in progress and the whole template for the running of the squad has changed; we don't want any more overpaid ageing mercenaries making little contribution and sticking with us for three years. At least 17 out and maybe 8 or 9 in, to settle on a reduced squad of 24. We are shopping in the lower leagues and are not going to pay over the odds even there. There is a keen intention to utilise players from the Academy to supplement the squad as and when they are ready.

In amongst all that, whether the manager can "put together a squad capable of mounting a serious promotion challenge" this season has to be open to doubt. I sense the club is hoping to pay fair basic salaries with incentives for success which is promotion presumably. Maybe our target players can't quite picture immediate success in the above scenario. Wilder said that players will visit S2 and see the set-up and think " I'll have a bit of that"; maybe they won't. Has Wilder got the charisma and the reputation to inspire potential recruits?; time will tell. Whatever happens, the squad at the beginning of the season will hardly know each other and promotion would be a major achievement for the new manager.

The season after we will be buzzing from Day One and let's hope we're in the Championship too.

 

[BushBlade]

I see some are not reading my posts to the full.

It will take huge sums to turn this club around in one season.
The reason being we were when we went down, and still are a long way behind the rest in terms of youth quality, style of football and fitness with Pace. Barnsley had just come down from the champ, and to boot have always played in recent times a more passing and attacking style of play. Plus they have little pressure as they are considered a L1/champ yo yo club at best. We seem to think we belong in the premier league FFS!

And the reason we haven't been raiding lower leagues for young talent is twofold.

1. The board insist that our own youth be used, and can see no benefit of hiring youth from elsewhere when we have a very expensive academy churning out 10 kids a year to consider for pro deals. That is fact.

2. The risk in taking an untested kid from lower leagues is high, and we want promotion. So managers are reluctant to risk it and opt for what they think is a safer bet. Granted it's been spectacularly bad on that front, especially Adkins so going all out to get your own way on one or two (like Clough did) can back fire and get board members backs up. Crazy as it seems, the board seem to think it's better paying more for that star a higher league just to appease the fans and keep the excitement up.

Sadly, it keeps backfiring in them, you would think they would learn.

Forget transfer committees....tell the manager here's your budget. We want good football. A young squad and the game played with pace and excitement. We don't care where you get the players from, just get it done. If we don't see improvement year on year you will be sacked.
No demands, no minimum league positions just improvement year on year. We can't afford to buy our way up so it has to be that way.

I remember an interview with KM when Warnock was here and we were doing quite well. He was full of himself and saying how we were smarter than other clubs because we didn't pay transfer fees, we signed frees and could use the savings in transfer fees to pay them higher wages meaning we got 'better players'.

Of course, that sounds fine on paper and can work where you have a manager that prioritises character and work rate over skill and had a way of playing that suited those particular attributes. It's not the conventional way of running a club or building a team and takes a special kind of manager, of which you only get four or five per generation.

I suspect KM was under the impression that our success was primarily due to him and his policy rather than the fact we had one of the best managers outside the PL whose methods were suited to the policy.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

1. Whatever happens, the squad at the beginning of the season will hardly know each other and promotion would be a major achievement for the new manager.

2. The season after we will be buzzing from Day One and let's hope we're in the Championship too.

Just the two points there that I feel the need to address

1. Agreed. But getting a couple of decent centre halves in nice and early and letting them have pre-season together would make a big difference on that front.

2. That could happen. IF we accept that we might well not go up this coming season, stick with the manager and commit to letting him develop the squad to have a right go at it in 2017/18. History suggests McCabe (and our fans) won't allow that though.

 

[Barney]

Doesn't bother me one bit.

Oh, I think it does...

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Oh, I think it does...

Yawn

 

[TonyAgana]

We perhaps do have a healthy budget but not big enough to cater for the number of players required and the quality expected.

It's for this reason precisely why I thought a new manager wouldn't completely decimate the squad close-season, despite the wishes of many to "ship out the dross". Even new dross is more expensive than old dross!

 

[Revolution]

Just the two points there that I feel the need to address

1. Agreed. But getting a couple of decent centre halves in nice and early and letting them have pre-season together would make a big difference on that front.

2. That could happen. IF we accept that we might well not go up this coming season, stick with the manager and commit to letting him develop the squad to have a right go at it in 2017/18. History suggests McCabe (and our fans) won't allow that though.

Wilder is gone if we don't go up this year.

And the whole sorry cycle will begin again.

I will believe we sign 2 decent centre backs when I see it.

 

[BushBlade]

Just the two points there that I feel the need to address

1. Agreed. But getting a couple of decent centre halves in nice and early and letting them have pre-season together would make a big difference on that front.

2. That could happen. IF we accept that we might well not go up this coming season, stick with the manager and commit to letting him develop the squad to have a right go at it in 2017/18. History suggests McCabe (and our fans) won't allow that though.

Point 1 is a bit chicken and egg.

If we're going for low salaries but high bonuses then any player coming in wants to be reasonably sure that we're going to challenge for promotion. His bonuses are partially affected by the performance of others.

At the moment, a lot of players will look at us and think 'they're not going up, they haven't even got centre halves.'

When a manager tries to sell a club to a potential signing, he talks about who else they're trying to get, shows their signings and existing players matches the club's ambitions. That's why they often try to get the marquee signing done first as it helps attract other good players.

 

[alcoblade]

In truth and on reflection, you've got a valid argument worthy of discussion there. However, even without Murphy, we had a team there that with 5 highly expensive players added to it, should have been enough to go up 3 places.

Not that this proves anything at all, and I realise I've just highlighted how the vast majority were wrong about Hammond, but even after selling Murphy, the general consensus seemed to be that roughly 4/5 players in key positions and we'd be challenging for automatic. Did you support that argument? I can't be bothered to look but I'll guess that you did.

Who were the 5 highly paid players that were added (and I'm not looking for an argument here, let's discuss....);

Sammon - terrible, but not his signing
Sharp - earned his money
Woolford - Awful, but not highly paid

Then much later came;

Hammond - Awful and highly paid
Baptiste - earned his money

I've got a shit memory so might have missed some here, but we really didn't build on Clough's team with any great financial clout at all. Especially when you lay the blame of Sammon at Cloughs feet, where it belongs.

Adkins failure was about not getting the best from what he's got. I think it's unfair and inaccurate to say he was given significant money to build.

UTB

 

[Barney]

Who were the 5 highly paid players that were added (and I'm not looking for an argument here, let's discuss....);

Sammon - terrible, but not his signing
Sharp - earned his money
Woolford - Awful, but not highly paid

Then much later came;

Hammond - Awful and highly paid
Baptiste - earned his money

I've got a shit memory so might have missed some here, but we really didn't build on Clough's team with any great financial clout at all. Especially when you lay the blame of Sammon at Cloughs feet, where it belongs.

Adkins failure was about not getting the best from what he's got. I think it's unfair and inaccurate to say he was given significant money to build.

UTB

You missed Edgar, who was a big panic buy after the defeat to Gillingham. I still don't think Adkins wanted to sign a centre half even then, but he was pretty much forced in to it by the supporters, which shouldn't have had to be the case.

So 5 signings for the majority of the season, all of whom will have been on huge wages, and one of whom cost 500k.

 

[pommpey]

hence Clough signing millions of pounds worth of utter guff

Alco - do you actually know how much Clough spent?

My problem is none of us do, hence 'undiclosed'. For all we know, he could have spent just £250k on all the 'guff', in which case the performances kinda justify themselves. See also Adkins.

pommpey

 

[alcoblade]

Alco - do you actually know how much Clough spent?

My problem is none of us do, hence 'undiclosed'. For all we know, he could have spent just £250k on all the 'guff', in which case the performances kinda justify themselves. See also Adkins.

pommpey

No, agreed, none of us do. It's mainly supposition - but we can be sure of a few things - the wage bill is way too high compared to revenue, hence continued losses - so these players aren't coming cheap. Brayford alone clearly cost a packet in transfer fee and wages. Further to this - look at the queue of people coming to take them off us - it must be at the end of that long line of tumbleweed.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

You missed Edgar, who was a big panic buy after the defeat to Gillingham. I still don't think Adkins wanted to sign a centre half even then, but he was pretty much forced in to it by the supporters, which shouldn't have had to be the case.

So 5 signings for the majority of the season, all of whom will have been on huge wages, and one of whom cost 500k.

Good point - I forgot Edgar. Id say he was an average player. I don't think the would have been on big money either - but too much, yes.

UTB

 

[United Aren't Back.]

When have I ever not?

Plenty of times Barney. Like the occasion you thought you had been banned.

 

[SandyMcBlade]

Adkins couldn't have been all that bad really because watching England in their last game was just like whatching United last season..

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Who were the 5 highly paid players that were added (and I'm not looking for an argument here, let's discuss....);

Sammon - terrible, but not his signing
Sharp - earned his money
Woolford - Awful, but not highly paid

Then much later came;

Hammond - Awful and highly paid
Baptiste - earned his money

I've got a shit memory so might have missed some here, but we really didn't build on Clough's team with any great financial clout at all. Especially when you lay the blame of Sammon at Cloughs feet, where it belongs.

Adkins failure was about not getting the best from what he's got. I think it's unfair and inaccurate to say he was given significant money to build.

UTB

There was Edgar too. But from Clough's reign those should all be offset against:-

Ian Turner
Michael Doyle
Ben Davies
Steven Davies
Jason Holt
Jamie Murphy

plus a few youths like Scarisbrick, Berry etc.

Then there's those that left during the season like Alcock, McNulty, Higdon, Dimaio, Khan, Collins, Baxter(suspended) etc.

Not exactly chucking money at it is it?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

You missed Edgar, who was a big panic buy after the defeat to Gillingham. I still don't think Adkins wanted to sign a centre half even then, but he was pretty much forced in to it by the supporters, which shouldn't have had to be the case.

So 5 signings for the majority of the season, all of whom will have been on huge wages, and one of whom cost 500k.

Why do you think he didn't want a centre half given that he'd been saying for a while that he wanted a centre half and before the Gillingham game said he was close to signing a centre half and then when Edgar signed said that he had wanted him in before Gillingham but the club couldn't "get it over the line" in time?

 

[BushBlade]

Why do you think he didn't want a centre half given that he'd been saying for a while that he wanted a centre half and before the Gillingham game said he was close to signing a centre half and then when Edgar signed said that he had wanted him in before Gillingham but the club couldn't "get it over the line" in time?

I always thought that the board was dragging its heels trying to get Edgar on the dirt cheap and then, after Gillingham, shit themselves and agreed to pay what was needed.

 

[Barney]

Why do you think he didn't want a centre half given that he'd been saying for a while that he wanted a centre half and before the Gillingham game said he was close to signing a centre half and then when Edgar signed said that he had wanted him in before Gillingham but the club couldn't "get it over the line" in time?

Because if he'd wanted a centre half that bad he'd have signed one or more before he signed 2 strikers and a winger. Did you also miss the interview where he said he was happy with a defensive partnership of Collins and McEveley?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I always thought that the board was dragging its heels trying to get Edgar on the dirt cheap and then, after Gillingham, shit themselves and agreed to pay what was needed.

Seems a reasonable suspicion to have given the way things panned out.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Because if he'd wanted a centre half that bad he'd have signed one or more before he signed 2 strikers and a winger. Did you also miss the interview where he said he was happy with a defensive partnership of Collins and McEveley?

OK so it’s gone from “didn’t want to sign” one to “didn’t want to sign one that bad” in 2 posts.


Do you suppose that he identified Edgar as a target after the Saturday match and the deal was concluded and announced with him registered, having completed a medical and ready to play by the Tuesday game v Morecambe then?


You keep harping on and on about he signed forwards, he didn’t sign centre halves. Let’s get something straight. He didn’t sign anybody. He put names to the board and the accountants, and Mal Brannigan crunched numbers, held talks and got who they got.


Billy was always going to be easier to do because of his allegiance, the PR benefit to the club (diluting the protest over Murphy’s impending exit), his relationship with Adkins etc.


Woolford was on the scrap heap, unwanted and had the relationship with Adkins making it another easy one to “get over the line”.


Sammon it seems the wheels were in motion before NAs arrival.


For all we know, a centre half could have been right at the top of NAs priority list when he arrived but those above him might have simply not got the deals done in that order.


To suggest he didn’t want one at all is utterly ridiculous. Espectially when you look at how he pursued Dan Burn and that he later brought in Baptiste too.

 

[Barney]

OK so it’s gone from “didn’t want to sign” one to “didn’t want to sign one that bad” in 2 posts.


Do you suppose that he identified Edgar as a target after the Saturday match and the deal was concluded and announced with him registered, having completed a medical and ready to play by the Tuesday game v Morecambe then?


You keep harping on and on about he signed forwards, he didn’t sign centre halves. Let’s get something straight. He didn’t sign anybody. He put names to the board and the accountants, and Mal Brannigan crunched numbers, held talks and got who they got.


Billy was always going to be easier to do because of his allegiance, the PR benefit to the club (diluting the protest over Murphy’s impending exit), his relationship with Adkins etc.


Woolford was on the scrap heap, unwanted and had the relationship with Adkins making it another easy one to “get over the line”.


Sammon it seems the wheels were in motion before NAs arrival.


For all we know, a centre half could have been right at the top of NAs priority list when he arrived but those above him might have simply not got the deals done in that order.


To suggest he didn’t want one at all is utterly ridiculous. Espectially when you look at how he pursued Dan Burn and that he later brought in Baptiste too.

We went in to the season with 2 strikers and 1 winger signed. If he was as bothered about getting in a centre half as he should have been, and they were right at the top of his priority list, as they should have been, centre halves would have been signed, possibly in addition to but definitely instead of one, possibly two of the ones he brought in. In an ideal world, the centre halves coming in first, but they certainly would have been there instead of the ones he signed.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

We went in to the season with 2 strikers and 1 winger signed. If he was as bothered about getting in a centre half as he should have been, and they were right at the top of his priority list, as they should have been, centre halves would have been signed, possibly in addition to but definitely instead of one, possibly two of the ones he brought in. In an ideal world, the centre halves coming in first, but they certainly would have been there instead of the ones he signed.

Lots of things are certain with you when they suit your agenda aren't they?

I'd say you have no clue how much effort he put into getting the centre halves. For all we know the board could have sacked Clough partly because Collins was a big earner and they wanted him back in the fold. Including him might have been part of Adkins' remit.

Has it been long enough without bringing in a centre half for Wilder to be a bad manager yet? If he'd been serious about signing them he would have got them instead of Duffy or Hussey surely?

 

[Barney]

Lots of things are certain with you when they suit your agenda aren't they?

I'd say you have no clue how much effort he put into getting the centre halves. For all we know the board could have sacked Clough partly because Collins was a big earner and they wanted him back in the fold. Including him might have been part of Adkins' remit.

Has it been long enough without bringing in a centre half for Wilder to be a bad manager yet? If he'd been serious about signing them he would have got them instead of Duffy or Hussey surely?

In an ideal world, he'd have signed them before those two yes.

We ought to have had some centre halves through the door by now.

That said, all he needs to do is sign at least one before the season starts and he'll have done better than Adkins.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

That said, all he needs to do is sign at least one before the season starts and he'll have done better than Adkins.

Not really as he will have had significantly more time (appointed a fair bit earlier) and doesn't have any centre halves on the books. If he has only signed 1 centre half by the first game, he (or us as a club in general) will have done worse as we had McGahey, Collins, Kennedy and McEveley this time last season.

 

[Barney]

Not really as he will have had significantly more time (appointed a fair bit earlier) and doesn't have any centre halves on the books. If he has only signed 1 centre half by the first game, he (or us as a club in general) will have done worse as we had McGahey, Collins, Kennedy and McEveley this time last season.

How many of the names you mention there did Adkins sign?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

How many of the names you mention there did Adkins sign?

None but if you have 4 centre halves on the books, not signing one before the first game is less disastrous than if you have 0 centre halves on the books. Jesus all this spoon feeding can be hard work at times.

 

[Barney]

None but if you have 4 centre halves on the books, not signing one before the first game is less disastrous than if you have 0 centre halves on the books. Jesus all this spoon feeding can be hard work at times.

None, correct. We needed new centre halves just as much then as we do now.

You think the spoon feeding's hard work, think about the one that has to administer you it.

 

[alcoblade]

There was Edgar too. But from Clough's reign those should all be offset against:-

Ian Turner
Michael Doyle
Ben Davies
Steven Davies
Jason Holt
Jamie Murphy

plus a few youths like Scarisbrick, Berry etc.

Then there's those that left during the season like Alcock, McNulty, Higdon, Dimaio, Khan, Collins, Baxter(suspended) etc.

Not exactly chucking money at it is it?

Not unless you're desperate to believe so, no.

UTB