Ownership developments

[Sean Thornton]

The way I read it, KM wanted both sides to put money in, as interest free loans. The Prince said no, let's put the money in as a gift. The Judge said something along the lines of the Prince thinking he would win the main court case, and KM would be out of pocket.

I would have to read it all again to get the exact wording.

That's my understanding. I just don't get the gift bit.

 

[Sean Thornton]

We were talking about what's going on now, i.e. the Prince trying to take over the club for next to nowt.

Aaah!

 

[MightyBlades]

You're possibly correct, I wouldn't,couldn't argue against that.
Is the Prince sidestepping the purchase of the ground? Is that a separate issue?

At the end of the day, a Judge's interpretation will sort matters. There's no winner here unless they sell the club on almost immediately.

My worry is not about who wins but that we may not be at BL.

The same worrying thought has also been bothering me.

If the Prince wins the court case and then intends to rent the ground and training facilities on the cheap from McCabe, rather than buying them outright, thinking that McCabe has no other option but to rent to him (What else can you do with an empty football stadium after all?) then things could really turn nasty and vindictive.

McCabe is a very tough/stubborn and principled man, who will take on anyone right to the end of the line, if he believes he's been wronged, as evidenced with the Tevez and Ched cases.

If McCabe has just been duped out of a small fortune and a business that he has just spent the best part of 25 years building, to see it pretty much stolen from him overnight, then he might possibly want to have the last say? Why would McCabe want the Prince to rent what would basically be the rump of his remaining business, on the cheap, and so effectively helping the thief to flourish, due to your continued generosity?

It would be like your best friend stealing the wife you love, then you saying that you'll go and live in a cheap bedsit, whilst allowing the best friend to move in to the family home, in return for a nominal monthly rental payment. It just won't happen and if McCabe is anything like me, which he probably is, he will want to burn the family house down, rather than see another man sleep in it and enjoy its former pleasures.

McCabe's main business is property development and he's very good at it. Bramall Lane is prime real estate in the very heart of a city that is currently enjoying a property boom. A vindictive McCabe that has just had his club stolen from underneath him, might just bulldoze the lot and build a new science or technology park on it. I know a vindictive me would probably want to do the same. And remember, Bramall Lane has never been listed as a community asset, so is not protected in any way, shape, or form.

It's all just ramblings from me, but the above scenario could come into play if things do get nasty in the near future?

 

[snootyfenooty]

So, which one is confident of winning?

The one who doesn't need any guarantee about getting his money back.

 

[Carlton Blade]

That's my understanding. I just don't get the gift bit.

Any chance the difference between a loan and a gift affects the individuals tax responsibilities?

 

[Sean Thornton]

The same worrying thought has also been bothering me.

If the Prince wins the court case and then intends to rent the ground and training facilities on the cheap from McCabe, rather than buying them outright, thinking that McCabe has no other option but to rent to him (What else can you do with an empty football stadium after all?) then things could really turn nasty and vindictive.

McCabe is a very tough/stubborn and principled man, who will take on anyone right to the end of the line, if he believes he's been wronged, as evidenced with the Tevez and Ched cases.

If McCabe has just been duped out of a small fortune and a business that he has just spent the best part of 25 years building, to see it pretty much stolen from him overnight, then he might possibly want to have the last say? Why would McCabe want the Prince to rent what would basically be the rump of his remaining business, on the cheap, and so effectively helping the thief to flourish, due to your continued generosity?

It would be like your best friend stealing the wife you love, then you saying that you'll go and live in a cheap bedsit, whilst allowing the best friend to move in to the family home, in return for a nominal monthly rental payment. It just won't happen and if McCabe is anything like me, which he probably is, he will want to burn the family house down, rather than see another man sleep in it and enjoy its former pleasures.

McCabe's main business is property development and he's very good at it. Bramall Lane is prime real estate in the very heart of a city that is currently enjoying a property boom. A vindictive McCabe that has just had his club stolen from underneath him, might just bulldoze the lot and build a new science or technology park on it. I know a vindictive me would probably want to do the same. And remember, Bramall Lane has never been listed as a community asset, so is not protected in any way, shape, or form.

It's all just ramblings from me, but the above scenario could come into play if things do get nasty in the near future?

The current rent doesn't even cover the outgoings of SULtd

 

[Pinchy]

You don't subscribe to Bailii, it is a database of public legal information? That was one of the reasons for it creation, to provide further access to judgments etc

Quite right. For some odd reason I had a different database, Westlaw, in mind. I use both and the names are so similar...

 

[Sean Thornton]

Any chance the difference between a loan and a gift affects the individuals tax responsibilities?

I doubt that comes into it. The result of a gift if HRH takes over is that he effectively gives himself money and McCabe gives him money as well. Seems a bit of a brazen idea, possibly simply a delaying tactic.

The Prince suggesting we don't need further cash flow input doesn't bode well for Wilders budget though, when McCabe says we do. This was supposed to have been sorted and Wilder placated. In their zeal to pin the blame -as usual - on McCabe, that point doesnt seem to have occurred to some.

 

[snootyfenooty]

A side issue to all of this is that the ground redevelopment is well and truly fucked for the foreseeable future and the seats are going to take on an even lighter shade of pink, especially after all this sun. It also explains why the Cherry Street redevelopment was mysteriously and suddenly canned.

 

[Sean Thornton]

A side issue to all of this is that the ground redevelopment is well and truly fucked for the foreseeable future and the seats are going to take on an even lighter shade of pink, especially after all this sun. It also explains why the Cherry Street redevelopment was mysteriously and suddenly canned.

That was years off and depended on becoming an established PL club. McCabe can't develop the ground and fund the club. My understanding was that the plans were to add value for any new owner rather than a short term plan to build.

 

[Grappler]

That's my understanding. I just don't get the gift bit.

In what way mate?, you mean it doesn't make sense or you can't understand why the Prince thinks it is a good idea?

 

[snootyfenooty]

That was years off and depended on becoming an established PL club. McCabe can't develop the ground and fund the club. My understanding was that the plans were to add value for any new owner rather than a short term plan to build.

The Cherry Street apartment/superstore bit was being readied for an immediate start.

 

[Sean Thornton]

In what way mate?, you mean it doesn't make sense or you can't understand why the Prince thinks it is a good idea?

I see why the Prince thinks it a good idea. Kev gets shafted. Even a further share issue would suit him, seeing as the price seems to be fixed at £5m. As I've said, it's a deal breaker, wastes time on any settlement and may break FFP rules.

Do it as loans and KMc has some protection.

 

[Railway Blade]

The gift is in effect like a bet. The person who wins keeps the dosh. The Prince is I assume more confident of winning the initial proceedings. A loan would have a right to be repaid back to both parties at some future date.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The Cherry Street apartment/superstore bit was being readied for an immediate start.

I thought you meant the overall development. Not surprising CS is on hold. Nothing in it for KMc, not when legal fees are rolling up. Same for the Prince, why pay for something he doesn't own part of. Plus some of his money will be in Belgium now.

Speculation, but it would appear some sort of agreed deal was in place before someone tried to pull a fast one. A fall out manufactured by one of them when a PL return looked plausible to save a lot of money? Did Jim shoot JFK?

 

[snootyfenooty]

I thought you meant the overall development. Not surprising CS is on hold. Nothing in it for KMc, not when legal fees are rolling up. Same for the Prince, why pay for something he doesn't own part of. Plus some of his money will be in Belgium now.

Speculation, but it would appear some sort of agreed deal was in place before someone tried to pull a fast one. A fall out manufactured by one of them when a PL return looked plausible to save a lot of money? Did Jim shoot JFK?

Could be why they're keeping the grassy knoll in the corner of the car park!

 

[TJB.]

Read the whole thing. Doesn't make for pleasant reading but having never read owt like that (legal claptrap) before it was certainly eye-opening.

This bit here...

'He confirmed that [KMc] seeks to defeat UTB's claim to its shares, and seeks to acquire UTB's shares, with the result that [KMc] either remains a 50% shareholder or takes full control of Blades. As a fall-back position, if UTB's claim for specific performance succeeds and the section 994 petition fails, [KMc] seeks to enforce the FC Options. As a final fall-back position it claims damages."

Just to clarify, does this mean that there could be an outcome in which both parties still end up owing 50% and the impasse still remains? Or have I misread that?

 

[Pinchy]

The professional business managers of the football club (who are accepted to be independent of both sides in the litigation) have produced a cash flow that, on certain assumptions about what may happen this summer, indicates that up to £10 million is needed by the club between 1 July 2018 and January 2019 to keep it afloat. That £10 million however includes a substantial amount, over £7 million, to fund activity in the current transfer window (i.e. the purchase of new players and the additional wage costs resulting from it). It allows only £600,000 as income from player sales. Both sides accept that there is one player sale that is likely to happen that could itself fund the cash requirement for the forthcoming season if a significant part of the fee is paid up front rather than deferred.


Edit; for those who can’t be arsed to read it

Running costs - £3m for half a season
Transfer fees and wage bill increase - £7m

Didn’t include Brooks money.

Sobering reading for the Wheerstmunnehgone Brigade of financial advisers isn’t it?

 

[Addison]

Read the whole thing. Doesn't make for pleasant reading but having never read owt like that (legal claptrap) before it was certainly eye-opening.

This bit here...

'He confirmed that [KMc] seeks to defeat UTB's claim to its shares, and seeks to acquire UTB's shares, with the result that [KMc] either remains a 50% shareholder or takes full control of Blades. As a fall-back position, if UTB's claim for specific performance succeeds and the section 994 petition fails, [KMc] seeks to enforce the FC Options. As a final fall-back position it claims damages."

Just to clarify, does this mean that there could be an outcome in which both parties still end up owing 50% and the impasse still remains? Or have I misread that?

Unfortunately no you haven't that is the nightmare scenario.

 

[Davalon]

For me personally this has at least clarified a few things and confirmed which previous comments on here were nearer the truth.

Another SUFC shitshow for sure. Doesn't matter who the protagonists are, what people's intentions are, anything good at this club soon gets royally fucked by the boardroom. A true basket case of a football club.

Most successes are usually inspite of the boardroom, not because of it. Most success (relative) in my lifetime has come from managers pulling rabbits out of hats for peanuts, with the exception of Warnock's promotion where he was supported notably financially.

The few times we've spent big by our standards it's been naively wasted on idiots.

I've got no desire to pin the blame on individuals and in KM's case I truly believe he's always done what he thought was right based on his abilities and financial limitations.

That said the continual mistakes from our hierarchies over decades and decades is nothing short of shambolic. Undoubtedly the most under-achieving football club in English football over the last 50 years.

 

[Pinchy]

It's to be hoped that both have convinced him of an amazing future in store for Sheffield United once one of them wins soul control

 

[west_yorks_blade]

So which one is being the shitehouse here? Or is it both or even neither of them?

I still don’t get it.

 

[BushBlade]

Sobering reading for the Wheerstmunnehgone Brigade of financial advisers isn’t it?

It’s sobering reading for all of us.

 

[TJB.]

Unfortunately no you haven't that is the nightmare scenario.

Jesus fucking Christ.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I doubt that comes into it. The result of a gift if HRH takes over is that he effectively gives himself money and McCabe gives him money as well. Seems a bit of a brazen idea, possibly simply a delaying tactic.

The Prince suggesting we don't need further cash flow input doesn't bode well for Wilders budget though, when McCabe says we do. This was supposed to have been sorted and Wilder placated. In their zeal to pin the blame -as usual - on McCabe, that point doesnt seem to have occurred to some.

Seems like 2 blokes with insufficient funds arguing about who has to take the blame for it. And both hoping to get something for free at the end

 

[TJB.]

So which one is being the shitehouse here? Or is it both or even neither of them?

I still don’t get it.

Prince is being a shitehouse, Kev has been a bit of a knob but isn't quite a shitehouse.

Hope this helps

 

[JayGreen17]

For me personally this has at least clarified a few things and confirmed which previous comments on here were nearer the truth.

Another SUFC shitshow for sure. Doesn't matter who the protagonists are, what people's intentions are, anything good at this club soon gets royally fucked by the boardroom. A true basket case of a football club.

Most successes are usually inspite of the boardroom, not because of it. Most success (relative) in my lifetime has come from managers pulling rabbits out of hats for peanuts, with the exception of Warnock's promotion where he was supported notably financially.

The few times we've spent big by our standards it's been naively wasted on idiots.

I've got no desire to pin the blame on individuals and in KM's case I truly believe he's always done what he thought was right based on his abilities and financial limitations.

That said the continual mistakes from our hierarchies over decades and decades is nothing short of shambolic. Undoubtedly the most under-achieving football club in English football over the last 50 years.

You’re spot on with your assessment here, how this club keeps hold off so many fans over the years with the tripe we have had to put up with atboard level is quite astounding.

 

[BushBlade]

So which one is being the shitehouse here? Or is it both or even neither of them?

I still don’t get it.

Both of them. In my opinion. The Prince obviously thinks £25m is too much and is trying to get out of paying it. The way he has done it may be legal or may not be (that’s what the main court case will decide) but it’s got the look of shithousery about it.

The current court case is about both of them loaning the club £1.25m each but the Prince won’t accept this, he wants the money put in as a straight injection (not repayable). KM wants the money to be a loan so if he loses the big court case, he gets the £1.25m back. So he tried to force the Prince to put the money in as a loan, which he would then match, as a loan.
Rather than risk losing the £1.25m he’s prepared to go to court over it and air our dirty laundry in public. And the Prince was happy to go along with it rather than risk having to pay KM the loan back if he wins.

It’s very much a matter of interpretation and opinion but my opinion is that they’re both acting like cunts with little regard for SUFC.

 

[Woodwaaard]

IN MY OPINION , the Prince wants control of the club on the cheap

He's swerved the spirit of the original agreement McCabe is rightly pissed off

If this goes in the Prince's favour it COULD potentially benefit the club IF, the Prince then makes money available for team strengthening and the club gets promoted. At this point he would then be able to buy the assets with Premiership money

On the other hand he could just be an opportunistic ****

We shall see

 

[Pinchy]

Legal fees will be paid by the owners. Common sense tells you that.

The lack of understanding on such a basic point really informs why we get such drivel from the Agenda Brigade and the Wheerstmunnehgone Faction.

At the end of the litigation there will be an agreement or order (in the absence of agreement) as to costs. Nothing comes for free in civil litigation and loser pays.