Everton & Forest Points Deduction - Can Sheffield United Survive?

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What happens if by some miracle, we stay up? 🤷‍♂️
Will we strengthen significantly to give ourselves a chance of staying up next season?
Or will we have to go through another season like this?
It’ll be just like Groundhog Day.
Again.
 

Little chance of avoiding relegation,but we have chance to improve playwise and pointwise towards a new season. Starting off by beating west ham would lift us all.
 
Roygbiv said:
I'd rather they didn't get points off really. Just looks more embarrassing when we still finish bottom. I know that sounds unbelievably negative but even if Forest get 10 points off, we'd still need to better their results to finish above them and we haven't shown any sign that we can do that.

Think what is most annoying is this looks like this would have been a great season to have a crack at staying up. The other 2 promoted sides are poor and other teams are getting points knocked off. Essentially surrendering before the season started looks even worse now.
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So annoying, what a waste with no guarantee that we’re ever gonna get promoted back to the prem any time soon….

what a waste of a season.
 
William Carey said:
How does it make little difference? Makes a big difference. We would be 1 win from going above both of them
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Because in that immediate situation we’d still be relegated (3rd from bottom) Added to the fact, Everton have already had a 10 point deduction and are 8 points in front of us and Forest currently have outperformed us 100%. Im not normally the pessimist, but blind faith doesn’t do it for me these days. Am I missing something?

So yeah the big difference is
 
As many have echoed, it’s the sad reality of this season. We seriously missed the boat, just a little bit more ambition at the beginning and we’re probably 4 or 5 points better off and in with some sort of a chance.

I personally don’t want our club to be the butt of a joke that ends with “and they still couldn’t stay up”. It’s not the players or managers fault, they’ve worked their arses off as do us to go and watch them. But we, collectively haven’t been supported on a number of fronts this season. Whether that’s for the want of trying or not. Money doesn’t grow on trees I suppose.
 
Roygbiv said:
Unless I've missed something, you can only really spend massive amounts if you have high enough revenue to earn it back. Unless a club spends massive amounts, they're never going to break into the big 6 and become popular enough to earn that revenue back. So there seems little to no chance that anyone will be able to match established big clubs in terms of spending no matter how rich they are.



Man City and Chelsea for instance have countless players out on loan that they've stockpiled and can sell while also gaining loads of revenue off the pitch by being two of the most popular clubs outside of England. How can the clubs below hope to match them financially?
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This was discussed during the Newcastle v Man City game. Newcastle despite the wealth of their owners are in a similar position, their turnover is way down when compared to Man City and they are now looking at offloading players to ensure they don't fall foul of FFP.
For clubs like ours it is almost impossible to buy players on the open market without failing to meet FFP rules. On the face of it you would think that Forest are possibly heading for a big fall.
Where it leaves us I don't know, perhaps letting the big six go to a super league would help, but then the next six in the heirarchy would still be some way ahead of the likes of us, Forest, Burnley, Luton, Brentford, Bournemouth, Palace, Fulham and Wolves.
Developing young talent is perhaps the way to go.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
This was discussed during the Newcastle v Man City game. Newcastle despite the wealth of their owners are in a similar position, their turnover is way down when compared to Man City and they are now looking at offloading players to ensure they don't fall foul of FFP.
For clubs like ours it is almost impossible to buy players on the open market without failing to meet FFP rules. On the face of it you would think that Forest are possibly heading for a big fall.
Where it leaves us I don't know, perhaps letting the big six go to a super league would help, but then the next six in the heirarchy would still be some way ahead of the likes of us, Forest, Burnley, Luton, Brentford, Bournemouth, Palace, Fulham and Wolves.
Developing young talent is perhaps the way to go.
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If you let big 6 disappear off into a super league though, you won't get the tv money. Its a catch 22. But without making the league more competitive ultimately it will go the way of France and tv revenues overall will go down. Think even the big 6 realise this.
 
It did make me chuckle though reading this on the Everton forum :-

Everton are basically the guy who buys 20kg of luggage on a Ryan Air flight, then stands arguing the toss at check in because they are getting charged £60 extra because their bag is 25kg. Then does exactly the same on the way home.
 

HeySethUTB said:
Any punishment is ratified on May 24th, 5 days after the end of the season.

What punishment they will receive will be disclosed on the 12th of April, clubs have 7 days to appeal, in the time between 18th of April and May 23rd premier league will consider the appeal made. If a ten point deduction was applied (could be anything tbf) now Forest would be a point above us and Everton 2 points behind, makes little difference to the final result imo.
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That’s a nonsense isn’t it? It could impact the way you approach games at the end of the season. Hanging on for a point when you realise retrospectively you needed a win would be a criminal outcome in all this.
 
Addison said:
Thats exactly the argument Everton tried over selling Richarlison and got lambasted by the Independent panel for failing to sell assets during the relevant period. The relevant period is very clear to all clubs.

Florists argument that they were only in breach for a few months due the delayed sale of Johnson, ergo only a small penalty applies, should be blown out of the water if there is consistent application of the PSR. All 20 clubs voted for PSR yet when breaches occur its suddenly a poor system for those in breach.

As we have seen consistent application of rules and precedent is not high on the agenda of Independent panels who have proved in the past they are a law unto themselves. As for the suggestion there is a sliding scale for penalties well one doesn't exist for the EPL whereas one does for the EFL.

The biggest fly in the ointment of the Everton decision is that the panel did not set out the reasons as to how they arrived at a figure of 10 points. No precedent was quoted. The only precedent referred to were the previous indiscretions of Mr Chansiri and the S6 rabble quoting the principle of points deductions being the correct sanction for breach. Hence opening the door to appeal.

We now have the scenario before the end of the season if the timetable is adhered to of;

1. Everton appeal to original deduction of 10 points - no date currently set
2. 14 days thereafter decision announced
3. Hearing for Florist - no date confirmed
4. Hearing for Everton part 2 - no date confirmed
5. Hearings to be concluded by 5 April 2024
6. Decisions on 3 and 4 to be made no later than 12 April 2024
7. 7 days to Appeal thereafter
8. Appeals hearing(s)/ decisions to be concluded by 24 May 2024


5 potential hearings 3 of those appeals. 5 separate decisions all within a legal framework. In short a buggers muddle with the propensity for inconsistent application and further confusion and delay.

We could be faced with a situation on 19 May 2024, last day of season, where we stay up due to the points deductions applied on 12 April. Yet have to wait another week to know if we are going to be relegated due to a reduction in points on appeal. Which ultimately will lead to SUFC or any other Club in the same situation taking out legal action over the Summer.

As Florist and Everton have until the end of January to respond to these charges and in short will be already constructing their defence I can see no reason why the timetable cannot be compressed 1 month to enable all matters to be concluded well before the seasons end. Availability of counsel may be a constraint but there are ways and means around this.

In the best interests of fairness no club should be left in a situation where they do not know their fate after the season has ended. The current EPL timetable in effect imposes a VAR style delay to the whole process where we are required to remain at BDTBL for 5 days after the Spuds game to check if we can celebrate survival.
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The Beautiful Game.

What a sorry mess the Premier League is creating - both on the field with rules such as 5 subs and the VAR fiasco, and off the field with this hopelessly muddled and amateurish legal charade.

It’s becoming a media soap opera, not a competitive sport. Surely somebody in power will recognise the need for root and branch reform before the whole edifice crashes down?
 
They can reduce their points level to zero. We’re still getting relegated this season in last place.
 
Balti Pie said:
I read those key dates as meaning punishment implemented on April 12th.
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Yes that's how I read it. Points taken off on April 12th, but with the potential to be put back on again a week after the season ends.

So in effect you might get to the final whistle of the final day and not be sure who's getting relegated. Sky won't like that at all.
 
Blade56 said:
You had me until this silly bit of nonsense.

Should do what Scotland did to Rangers and dump em all ont bottom league and make em fight their way back up.
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Just like the Prince is trying to do
 
Just heard the argument that FFP is there to help promoted clubs compete, so bigger clubs can’t spend loads of money like they have been doing for years.

It’s a load of BS, because the very fact most premier league clubs have spent loads of money for years, means promoted sides will likely have to spend more than their means in order to bridge the gap.

The question ought to be, Why are the premier league implementing a system that should have been in place before the gap between the premier league and championship became so big?
 
Champagneblade said:
That’s a nonsense isn’t it? It could impact the way you approach games at the end of the season. Hanging on for a point when you realise retrospectively you needed a win would be a criminal outcome in all this.
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I doubt any appeal would be successful once they have been found guilty. They might argue that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, but that's for the PL to decide, not the club. The PL isn't going to reduce the points deduction after the season ends if it means that the offending club is saved and another is relegated (you'd have thought).
 
dexter101 said:
I agree that we were always going to go down, however I would actually take Vini over Berge every day of the week. I don't think he would have helped this team one little bit this season.
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Apart from those goals and assists obviously, and featuring heavily in preseason.

Like it or not Berge still walks into our team.

Back on topic I’m not sure how Everton can’t have the book thrown at them now considering this is the second guilty offence this season.

They’re taking the piss.
 
All this talk of it will be even more embarrassing for us is nonsense.

This can’t be anything other than good news for us, even if it only improves our chances of staying up from 10% to 25%, it gives us more hope than we had this time yesterday and keeps us competive for further on in the season.

Yes the Luton result knocked the stuffing out of us but can anyone say with certainty at this stage that they will finish above us? They may do they may not do. We do have a habit of thinking the worst case scenario

Don’t get me wrong I’d rather we stay up because we performed better than 3 other teams but if we gain a slight advantage due to other teams cheating then i’ll take that as well
 
Sorry folks, I think a few of you need to wake up and smell the coffee here.

I get the whole concept of it being rather embarrassing for us to still finish bottom after these two muppets get point deductions, but honestly, it would just be one more thing in a season to forget where we've already been pumped by Arsenal, Burnley, and of course the 8-0 defeat at home to Newcastle with 8 different goal scorers. This was not the season to splash the cash and give it a go financially with new players. Promotion has filled one big bloody hole in our finances and in my opinion saved our club for this and next season. If we didn't get promotion, we'd have sold every player we have worth more than 3 million and been getting spanked at home by Bristol City this season with our first team made up of the U21s. Instead, we got promotion, paid off a shit load of debt and yet still managed to bring in some pretty good signings in Vini, Hamer, Trusty and Archer. Sander and Ndiaye needed to be sold due to their own respective issues, it's shit, but it was the right thing to do. At least now we recouped some funds, invested those funds in some signings and let the promotion funds sort the finances out.

If we survive, I have no doubt that we'd splash some cash next season because we'd be in a much better place to invest with a balanced cheque book. If we go down, we're not going to be in the same horrific condition, debts have been paid and we'll have parachute payments to help us give it a good go to get back up. Yes, players will leave due to their own reasons/contracts but I don't see a situation where we are not at least competing for the play-offs, regardless of how we're playing at the minute.

We are a proper football club, what comes with that is a financial inability to make mistakes and we have done. You can't overlook some pretty horrific gross mismanagement in terms of contracts and certain transfer signings. Hecky still deserves all the credit for covering the cracks of these decisions and getting us to the elite league and all the financial rewards that came with it. We'd have been prime Derby or Reading sliding down to league 1 for the next decade if not.

Whatever happens in the remainder of the season, you've got to remember we've got our finances in check with parachute payments to come next season. Leeds lost their entire Premier League starting 11 due to woeful decisions regarding relegation clauses and look how they're getting on. They've got flipping Ampadu in midfield and are 11 points inside the play-offs. We're up for sale, albeit a silly asking price but I'm hopeful for next season even if we go down. If we stay up, next season won't be like this one in my opinion.
 
loveWalrusDaveTheBlade said:
The Beautiful Game.

What a sorry mess the Premier League is creating - both on the field with rules such as 5 subs and the VAR fiasco, and off the field with this hopelessly muddled and amateurish legal charade.

It’s becoming a media soap opera, not a competitive sport. Surely somebody in power will recognise the need for root and branch reform before the whole edifice crashes down?
Click to expand...
So well put!!

In regards to the OP. We were down before a ball was kicked!
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
This was discussed during the Newcastle v Man City game. Newcastle despite the wealth of their owners are in a similar position, their turnover is way down when compared to Man City and they are now looking at offloading players to ensure they don't fall foul of FFP.
For clubs like ours it is almost impossible to buy players on the open market without failing to meet FFP rules. On the face of it you would think that Forest are possibly heading for a big fall.
Where it leaves us I don't know, perhaps letting the big six go to a super league would help, but then the next six in the heirarchy would still be some way ahead of the likes of us, Forest, Burnley, Luton, Brentford, Bournemouth, Palace, Fulham and Wolves.
Developing young talent is perhaps the way to go.
Click to expand...
The big problem we have is that despite our relatively high attendance figures our income from shirt sales, sponsorship etc is relatively low. If any of the figures that we are reported to be paying out in players wages are anywhere near accurate then the TV revenue money is quickly used up.
The hidden costs, security, electricity, insurance, backroom staff wages, ground maintenance etc etc must be horrendous.
Our fans who keep wishing for a rich owner need to think again because it just doesn't work. Having someone spending loads of money on players without generating the equivalent income will only lead to disaster. Forest could be in really deep shit, more so than Everton. Although if Everton are relegated just as they move to a new stadium it could be some years before they get back to the premiership.
We have to look at the Brighton operating model, who have the ability to find young talent to develop and then sell for serious money.
It would help to explain why United went down the recruitment path it took last year. Of course it only works if the players we buy progress and become more valuable assets.
 

Norwood's 6 iron said:
The big problem we have is that despite our relatively high attendance figures our income from shirt sales, sponsorship etc is relatively low. If any of the figures that we are reported to be paying out in players wages are anywhere near accurate then the TV revenue money is quickly used up.
The hidden costs, security, electricity, insurance, backroom staff wages, ground maintenance etc etc must be horrendous.
Our fans who keep wishing for a rich owner need to think again because it just doesn't work. Having someone spending loads of money on players without generating the equivalent income will only lead to disaster. Forest could be in really deep shit, more so than Everton. Although if Everton are relegated just as they move to a new stadium it could be some years before they get back to the premiership.
We have to look at the Brighton operating model, who have the ability to find young talent to develop and then sell for serious money.
It would help to explain why United went down the recruitment path it took last year. Of course it only works if the players we buy progress and become more valuable assets.
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Brighton whose owner Tony Bloom has put more than half a billion into the club. Yep we should follow their plan and get a rich owner
 
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