Everton & Forest Points Deduction - Can Sheffield United Survive?

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Even if Forest get 10 points knocked off, they're still above us.
 

Presumably Everton won’t get additional punishment as a 2nd offence? Basically, they should have been relegated once in the last 3-4 years and have cheated, twice, to avoid that scenario. Honestly, If I were Leicester et al, I’d been lining up the litigation lawyers.
 
A Storm of Blades said:
Presumably Everton won’t get additional punishment as a 2nd offence? Basically, they should have been relegated once in the last 3-4 years and have cheated, twice, to avoid that scenario. Honestly, If I were Leicester et al, I’d been lining up the litigation lawyers.
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Yeah after Leicester went into administration in 2002, shafting all their suppliers to the tune of £30m+, it is only right and proper that they now get to sit on a very high horse indeed. (insert irony where appropriate....)
 
sheffieldred said:
Yeah I think so. I can't see that it can wash from an accounting perspective but whether they are hoping that the common sense of demonstrating that selling an asset to aid the sustainability is what the rules should be about. That sounds a little bit too much like common sense though doesn't it.

Ultimately if we get punished for a letter of the law type thing then we have to wear it like we all have to on a weekly basis with VAR.
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mcbladeface said:
If the PL accept Forest's argument that they should be allowed to include the Johnson sale and effectively let them 'backdate' it, I can imagine some interesting reactions on the other side of the city.
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The "but we sold Johnson" mitigation needs to be thrown out with the trash. The accounting periods are clear and unambiguous. Plus the argument is effectively "we could have sold him but chose not to because we wanted to stay up" - precisely the point - you overspent with an express intention to gain an advantage on the pitch.


Further thoughts...

If you in any way accept that as a mitigation, then you have to effectively remove the Johnson sale from the year in which in occurred, and move it into the prior year.

Which right now would mean next seasons P&S calculation wouldn`t change, but give it a couple of years and I can guarantee you that forest would be wanting to include the full value of the Johnson sale in the first of the three rolling years for P&S purposes.

If they want to move it - then they move it - if in 3 years you are breaching P&S again, don`t come with an argument that the Johnson sale happened in the 23-24 season.
 
Alan Birchenall's hair said:
Yeah after Leicester went into administration in 2002, shafting all their suppliers to the tune of £30m+, it is only right and proper that they now get to sit on a very high horse indeed. (insert irony where appropriate....)
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22 years ago. I’m not saying it was right but if we had a right to sue West Ham in 2007, they have a right now.
 
Kind of hope not tbh, while the extra money would be nice can't see us spending enough to mangle a team together good enough to stay up without building again with time and more possession we'd get in the championship.
 
Alan Birchenall's hair said:
Everton get 10 points deducted and are 2 points behind us with better players. Forest get 10 points deducted and are a point ahead of us with better players.
These presumed deductions may be an advantage for Luton and Burnley, but unless they get put down to zero points, it won't make any difference to us.
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Typical Blade, always looking on the bright side.
 
s20Blade said:
Kind of hope not tbh, while the extra money would be nice can't see us spending enough to mangle a team together good enough to stay up without building again with time and more possession we'd get in the championship.
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Ffs typical Sheffield attitude….
 
Teams like Forest need to sell 1 player a year to the big boys for £60m+ to be alright.

That model works for a while but it keeps you firmly where you are (losing your best player each year) and when you don't have another one to roll off the production line, you are a bit snookered. We have at least signed a few players who may go for mega money in the future.

So it is a bit ironic that we are the most stacked with assets than we ever have been uet have fallen foul of this, whilst having had decades of being top spenders I the champ with little or no core of saleable assets
 

"City's charges related to a nine-year time frame from 2009. Since 2009, they have won the top flight seven times, but are facing potential relegation and having titles taken away if the case against them is proven."

www.bbc.co.uk

Date 'has been set' for hearing into Man City charges

Premier League chief executive Richard Masters says a date has been set for the hearing into Manchester City's alleged breaches of financial rules but does not reveal when it is.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

😃
 
sheffieldred said:
Teams like Forest need to sell 1 player a year to the big boys for £60m+ to be alright.

That model works for a while but it keeps you firmly where you are (losing your best player each year) and when you don't have another one to roll off the production line, you are a bit snookered. We have at least signed a few players who may go for mega money in the future.

So it is a bit ironic that we are the most stacked with assets than we ever have been uet have fallen foul of this, whilst having had decades of being top spenders I the champ with little or no core of saleable assets
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You haven't "fallen foul" of anything. You have deliberately cheated. Your club thought you'd get away with it. You haven't. Whilst many of your stupid fans bask in the utter recklessness of your spending, the more sensible one's will realise you are another Bolton/Portsmouth waiting to happen. I sincerely hope so.
 
HeySethUTB said:
Just heard the argument that FFP is there to help promoted clubs compete, so bigger clubs can’t spend loads of money like they have been doing for years.

It’s a load of BS, because the very fact most premier league clubs have spent loads of money for years, means promoted sides will likely have to spend more than their means in order to bridge the gap.

The question ought to be, Why are the premier league implementing a system that should have been in place before the gap between the premier league and championship became so big?
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This should have thousands of likes, partly down to the absolute brilliance of it all. It’s an absolute shame that people don’t realise it.👏👏👏👏
 
Need4speed said:
Brighton whose owner Tony Bloom has put more than half a billion into the club. Yep we should follow their plan and get a rich owner
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Ha ha, there is no way he has put that much in to running Brighton, what they have done is established a scouting network that identifies players that when they then sell them on will generate a substantial profit.
The list is endless, Ben White, Caicedo, MacAllister, Cucurella, Trossard, Bissouma.
The next will possibly be Evan Ferguson.
22/23 showed them a £80m plus transfer profit, 23/24 it will be nearer £100m.
With that sort of success Tony Bloom is most probably taking money out rather than putting it in.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
Ha ha, there is no way he has put that much in to running Brighton, what they have done is established a scouting network that identifies players that when they then sell them on will generate a substantial profit.
The list is endless, Ben White, Caicedo, MacAllister, Cucurella, Trossard, Bissouma.
The next will possibly be Evan Ferguson.
22/23 showed them a £80m plus transfer profit, 23/24 it will be nearer £100m.
With that sort of success Tony Bloom is most probably taking money out rather than putting it in.
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Sorry you don't know what you are talking about Just have a quick read and inform yourself This is from a Brighton fans forum https://www.wearebrighton.com/newso...oom,Express Elite Football Performance Centre.
 
HeySethUTB said:
Just heard the argument that FFP is there to help promoted clubs compete, so bigger clubs can’t spend loads of money like they have been doing for years.

It’s a load of BS, because the very fact most premier league clubs have spent loads of money for years, means promoted sides will likely have to spend more than their means in order to bridge the gap.

The question ought to be, Why are the premier league implementing a system that should have been in place before the gap between the premier league and championship became so big?
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Do you mean before or after 2013 when it was introduced. Only just come to light because clubs have only just been caught for the first time and also this year the change to speed up the process.
 
Valley Blade said:
You haven't "fallen foul" of anything. You have deliberately cheated. Your club thought you'd get away with it. You haven't. Whilst many of your stupid fans bask in the utter recklessness of your spending, the more sensible one's will realise you are another Bolton/Portsmouth waiting to happen. I sincerely hope so.
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Edit - You are conflating "cheating" and financial sustainability.

A club with 1p lower than the loss limit hasnt technically "cheated" but still loses £35m per year or whatever it is. No less likely to go pop if the person at the top is a chancer.

Any football club is only sustainable on the basis of somebody putting money in. We at least seem to have someone who is prepared to do that properly. During the end of the Carry on Kuwait years, i may have agreed with you about us being in peril though
 
Need4speed said:
Sorry you don't know what you are talking about Just have a quick read and inform yourself This is from a Brighton fans forum https://www.wearebrighton.com/newsopinion/how-tony-bloom-became-a-billionaire-and-turned-brighton-into-top-six-material/#:~:text=That fan is Tony Bloom,Express Elite Football Performance Centre.
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What it doesn't tell you about is how much of that money was spent on buying the club in the first place. Bloom is a businessman, he will have financed, through loans, the purchase of both the club and the building of their new stadium. Which will over a period of time be repaid. I will be amazed if he has invested that sort of money without a return. Otherwise Brighton would have fallen foul of Ffp.
The fact remains, over the last few years their income from player sales is exceeding their expenditure, and has to be a model that clubs like United have to aim for.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
What it doesn't tell you about is how much of that money was spent on buying the club in the first place. Bloom is a businessman, he will have financed, through loans, the purchase of both the club and the building of their new stadium. Which will over a period of time be repaid. I will be amazed if he has invested that sort of money without a return. Otherwise Brighton would have fallen foul of Ffp.
The fact remains, over the last few years their income from player sales is exceeding their expenditure, and has to be a model that clubs like United have to aim for.
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Some of it is on the stadium but he regularly has to cover losses of 50 m until recently because of huge sales
 
Frank the tank said:
Some of it is on the stadium but he regularly has to cover losses of 50 m until recently because of huge sales
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I mean part of the model in having an owner with a ~£1.3billion business heavily involved in football related data, analytics and modelling might be handy in comparison to being linked with a fella with a vapourware platform selling beans on behalf of fictitious farmers.

Lets stick up a Facebook ad asking for one :)
 
Roygbiv said:
Unless I've missed something, you can only really spend massive amounts if you have high enough revenue to earn it back. Unless a club spends massive amounts, they're never going to break into the big 6 and become popular enough to earn that revenue back. So there seems little to no chance that anyone will be able to match established big clubs in terms of spending no matter how rich they are.



Man City and Chelsea for instance have countless players out on loan that they've stockpiled and can sell while also gaining loads of revenue off the pitch by being two of the most popular clubs outside of England. How can the clubs below hope to match them financially?
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Indeed. Look at how well run Brighton are and have been for some time and as good as they are run, they are still limited by the blocks you mention. If Brighton who are possibly the best run club in the UK have very little chance of breaking into that monopoly, then what chance the clubs not run so well? All it does is create a perpetual cycle where the 'bigger clubs' can buy Brighton's best players hoping to knock them off their perch.

So even with how Brighton are run, and the fact they possibly have one of the best recruitment strategies in football, they will always be hampered by things outside of their control. That cannot be a League built on sporting integrity.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
What it doesn't tell you about is how much of that money was spent on buying the club in the first place. Bloom is a businessman, he will have financed, through loans, the purchase of both the club and the building of their new stadium. Which will over a period of time be repaid. I will be amazed if he has invested that sort of money without a return. Otherwise Brighton would have fallen foul of Ffp.
The fact remains, over the last few years their income from player sales is exceeding their expenditure, and has to be a model that clubs like United have to aim for.
Click to expand...
Brighton should be the example that a lot of clubs should be at least trying to follow. Yes Bloom has invested heavily as they basically created a Premier League club when they were in the Championship. They built an infrastructure ready for Prem League with the scouting and recruitment strategies they now have finely honed. As you say, they are now a money making machine to some degree. They got huge compensation for Potter and his backroom staff, and will likely do the same when De Zerbi leaves.

They hold all the cards because they tie their assets up in great contracts and always have replacements lined up for every role at the club, including the non-playing roles.
 
Delboyscap said:
Brighton should be the example that a lot of clubs should be at least trying to follow. Yes Bloom has invested heavily as they basically created a Premier League club when they were in the Championship. They built an infrastructure ready for Prem League with the scouting and recruitment strategies they now have finely honed. As you say, they are now a money making machine to some degree. They got huge compensation for Potter and his backroom staff, and will likely do the same when De Zerbi leaves.

They hold all the cards because they tie their assets up in great contracts and always have replacements lined up for every role at the club, including the non-playing roles.
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To get where they are they have had to accumulate a half a billion debt
Mostly owed to their chairman who probably won't want it back but how many clubs can follow that model without going out of existence
 

Frank the tank said:
To get where they are they have had to accumulate a half a billion debt
Mostly owed to their chairman who probably won't want it back but how many clubs can follow that model without going out of existence
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Yes, no doubt without Bloom it was unlikely to go the same way for Brighton. But you have to look at where they started; they were lower than say the Blades, their stadium was a mess, and the club was a shambles. Clubs could still use them as an example and would likely have the benefit of not having to start way down the pyramid and without the need for a new stadium to contend with.

Obviously as we have seen with other owners of other clubs, it CAN be a dangerous scenario to become reliant on someone like Bloom.
 
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