Do attendances matter these days?

[Silent Blade]

Hull is a strange one. You would think the novelty would not have worn off for them, especially given last season's cup run.

The rugby town factor?

In the 1980s got to know quite a lot of people who live in Hull area. Many of them are Rugby fans supporting either Kingston Rovers or Hull but a large percentage of them liked football too but they supported either L**ds, Liverpool or Man U

 

[cahill]

What I think you are actually seeing is a consolidation of power in the big urban centres. As I said earlier it's now virtually impossible from any club outside the big conurbations to win the league (or indeed get into the top 4 in the PL - from memory, apart from Blackburn, the only clubs to have qualified for the CL are Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Leeds and Newcastle).

Clubs from outside those centres can win the odd cup , but I see no distinction between the "traditional" football areas and S in that respect, in the period since 1969 (when Swindon won a cup), Sunderland, Wigan, Wednesday, Stoke, Wolves, Coventry, Birmingham, Villa, Middlesbrough and Forest have all also won cups. The southern clubs you mentioned have won a total of 6 cups whereas the clubs I mention have won a total of around 17. Also, of course, Derby, Villa and Forest won the league in that 50 year period. It's a fact that only 1 club from the south oustide London has won the League since 1950 (Ipswich in 1962) and there is no prospect of any other club doing so any time soon.

There is a marginal shift in power to the south, but all it is clubs like Luton andNorwich getting a few years as top tier strugglers and winners of a cup every 10 years or so (but then clubs like Blackpool, Bolton and Burnley have all also managed that in recent years). To go back to the OP, power in football will always go to those with the biggest crowds - and that means the clubs from the big urban centres (apart from Sheffield of course :-()

To be fair I don't see Sunderland, Wendy, Wolves, Stoke, Coventry, Birmingham, Florist as the northern and midlands equivalents of Wimbledon, Swindon, Oxford, Luton even QPR. Wednesday for example are MASSIVE

 

[cahill]

Well Darren its true to say that Manchester, London, Merseyside are the power houses of football. The West Midlands clubs aren't anything like as successful as the others.

Four large conurbations are under represented at the elite Premiership level, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Tyneside, Bristol area.

For the purposes of my argument I'd class Swansea and Cardiff as based in the Southern part of Britain and they seemed to have come into some lolly. Look what's happened to Scottish football over the last 40 years, it used to be vaguely interesting.

We can quote examples that buck the trend eg. Hull City, but I still think that power in football has moved away from the post industrial North to the South-East of England. Watford and B'mouth have just gone up, Wendy, Derby, Leeds, Forest, Wolves etc are fighting for scraps

 

[Darren]

Well Darren its true to say that Manchester, London, Merseyside are the power houses of football. The West Midlands clubs aren't anything like as successful as the others.

Four large conurbations are under represented at the elite Premiership level, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Tyneside, Bristol area.

For the purposes of my argument I'd class Swansea and Cardiff as based in the Southern part of Britain and they seemed to have come into some lolly. Look what's happened to Scottish football over the last 40 years, it used to be vaguely interesting.

We can quote examples that buck the trend eg. Hull City, but I still think that power in football has moved away from the post industrial North to the South-East of England. Watford and B'mouth have just gone up, Wendy, Derby, Leeds, Forest, Wolves etc are fighting for scraps

Swansea and Cardiff are from one of the traditional industrial parts of Britain - the south Wales coalfield. - culturally they are much more similar to Sheffield and Manchester than they are to Watford and Bournemouth.

If we look at the "non-traditional" teams from the south in the last 50 years who have reached the top division, we have the following list:

Luton
Watford
Norwich
Ipswich
Brighton
Southampton
Oxford
Reading
Swindon
and now Bournemouth.

It's hardly a list of stellar acheivement is it? Ipswich have done well (2 trophies), as have Southampton (only 1 trophy but extended stays in the top divisio) and Norwich, but the rest? Brighton, a 4 year spell over 30 years ago, Swindon 1 diastrsous year 20 years ago, Reading occasional PL strugglers in recent years, Oxford 1 3 year spell 25 years ago and down to the conference since. Watford get the odd year here and there and always go straight back down, Luton not been in the top division for 20 odd years and also went down to the conference.

Meabwhile, the "post industrial north" has won the vast majority of trophies in the last 50 years and all of the biggest clubs are there and in London. Watford and Bournemouth going up this year does not a trend make.

 

[Revolution]

Swansea and Cardiff are from one of the traditional industrial parts of Britain - the south Wales coalfield. - culturally they are much more similar to Sheffield and Manchester than they are to Watford and Bournemouth.

If we look at the "non-traditional" teams from the south in the last 50 years who have reached the top division, we have the following list:

Luton
Watford
Norwich
Ipswich
Brighton
Southampton
Oxford
Reading
Swindon
and now Bournemouth.

It's hardly a list of stellar acheivement is it? Ipswich have done well (2 trophies), as have Southampton (only 1 trophy but extended stays in the top divisio) and Norwich, but the rest? Brighton, a 4 year spell over 30 years ago, Swindon 1 diastrsous year 20 years ago, Reading occasional PL strugglers in recent years, Oxford 1 3 year spell 25 years ago and down to the conference since. Watford get the odd year here and there and always go straight back down, Luton not been in the top division for 20 odd years and also went down to the conference.

Meabwhile, the "post industrial north" has won the vast majority of trophies in the last 50 years and all of the biggest clubs are there and in London. Watford and Bournemouth going up this year does not a trend make.

There's also Bristol City and Northampton, but they prove your point as well (4 and 1 seasons in the last 50 years respectively).

 

[Darren]

There's also Bristol City and Northampton, but they prove your point as well (4 and 1 seasons in the last 50 years respectively).

I count Northampton as being in the midlands and Bristol City had time in the top division pren WWII so I don't count them as a non traditional top club

 

[Revolution]

I count Northampton as being in the midlands and Bristol City had time in the top division pren WWII so I don't count them as a non traditional top club

Bristol City had a 4 year spell in the Edwardian era before 60 years in the lower leagues. That makes them about as traditional a top flight club as Bradford Park Avenue, but whatever...

 

[Darren]

Bristol City had a 4 year spell in the Edwardian era before 60 years in the lower leagues. That makes them about as traditional a top flight club as Bradford Park Avenue, but whatever...

Really? I had a vague idea United played them a few times pre WWII in the top division, but I stand corrected and we can add them to the list!

 

[Darren]

The other interesting point on that is that Bristol's (7th biggest city in England) football achievements 2 clubs, 8 years in the top division and no trophies), makes Sheffield look like Manchester....

 

[Revolution]

The other interesting point on that is that Bristol's (7th biggest city in England) football achievements 2 clubs, 8 years in the top division and no trophies), makes Sheffield look like Manchester....

Yes, only Stoke is a similar size and so rubbish.

I have nothing against either Bristol club, but I do enjoy the fact that City have never been in the PL because Richard Scudamore supports them.

 

[Darren]

Yes, only Stoke is a similar size and so rubbish.

I have nothing against either Bristol club, but I do enjoy the fact that City have never been in the PL because Richard Scudamore supports them.

To be fair, Stoke is quite a bit smaller than Bristol and one of their clubs has generally been in the top division and has won something.

 

[Revolution]

To be fair, Stoke is quite a bit smaller than Bristol and one of their clubs has generally been in the top division and has won something.

It's better than Bristol, but not that much better a record. Stoke are one of the oldest teams in the league and have won only 1 trophy, and before 2008 had been out of the top flight for 20 odd years. Plus Port Vale have never been higher than division 2.

United of course stopped Stoke winning the league in 1947.

 

[Silent Blade]

Bristol City had a 4 year spell in the Edwardian era before 60 years in the lower leagues. That makes them about as traditional a top flight club as Bradford Park Avenue, but whatever...

Grimsby were in the 1st division from 1934 until 1948..

 

[Revolution]

Grimsby were in the 1st division from 1934 until 1948..

They also had a spell before World War 1.

Teams that have not played in top division for 50+ years (and still exist):

Darwen
Glossop
Bradford PA
Grimsby
Brentford
Leyton Orient
Preston North End
Bury

 

[Silent Blade]

They also had a spell before World War 1.

Teams that have not played in top division for 50+ years (and still exist):

Glossop

One of my favourite football quiz "name two clubs in Derbyshire that have played in the top division". Not many came up with Glossop North End!