Do attendances matter these days?

[Darren]

Well obviously its not scientific but just a trend in my opinion. Perhaps going back 40 years doesn't do it justice. Football didn't start in 1975. How long is it since, Preston, Burnley, Huddersfield, Bolton, Blades, Wendy, S'land, Newcastle Leeds were winning things ? Ok they all have their moments but Huddersfield won 3 titles in succession, Burnley during the 1960s were always up there, Wolves in the 1950's.

Over the last 50 or so years, Swindon, Oxford, QPR, Norwich, Luton, W'don have all won cups what about Hudders, Preston, Burnley, nothing. There are examples that buck the trend eg. M'boro winning the league cup.

Eventually as wealth becomes ever more concentrated in the south of England I think the Merseyside clubs will decline as a lot of the top players seem to want to play in London. Chelsea, Arsenal, Wham (new stadium) Spuds, Bournemouth, Watford , Reading (recent years), Southampton.

I think we have to accept, unfortunately that clubs like ours, Huddrs, Wendy, Leeds, S'land, Newcastle are on the wrong side of history and geography,

What I think you are actually seeing is a consolidation of power in the big urban centres. As I said earlier it's now virtually impossible from any club outside the big conurbations to win the league (or indeed get into the top 4 in the PL - from memory, apart from Blackburn, the only clubs to have qualified for the CL are Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Leeds and Newcastle).

Clubs from outside those centres can win the odd cup , but I see no distinction between the "traditional" football areas and S in that respect, in the period since 1969 (when Swindon won a cup), Sunderland, Wigan, Wednesday, Stoke, Wolves, Coventry, Birmingham, Villa, Middlesbrough and Forest have all also won cups. The southern clubs you mentioned have won a total of 6 cups whereas the clubs I mention have won a total of around 17. Also, of course, Derby, Villa and Forest won the league in that 50 year period. It's a fact that only 1 club from the south oustide London has won the League since 1950 (Ipswich in 1962) and there is no prospect of any other club doing so any time soon.

There is a marginal shift in power to the south, but all it is clubs like Luton andNorwich getting a few years as top tier strugglers and winners of a cup every 10 years or so (but then clubs like Blackpool, Bolton and Burnley have all also managed that in recent years). To go back to the OP, power in football will always go to those with the biggest crowds - and that means the clubs from the big urban centres (apart from Sheffield of course :-()

 

[raul]

8 time Bundesliga Champions Borussia Dortmund made it to their third final in four seasons in their domestic cup last night.They'll be hoping to win that to have the opprtunity to extend their record number of DFL Supercup wins from five to six.

 

[Worksop II]

8 time Bundesliga Champions Borussia Dortmund made it to their third final in four seasons in their domestic cup last night.They'll be hoping to win that to have the opprtunity to extend their record number of DFL Supercup wins from five to six.

With a manager that is leaving as well, just goes to show its not about the Managers length of Contract, or 5 Year Plans.

Its about the intent of the Manager, Klopp, we could only dream at a Team with the energy he and his players exude.

Though Princey, if you wanna take a shot .........................

 

[BushBlade]

In this season's premier league, there is only one club from the south of England outside London - Southampton. Forty years ago there was also 1 - Luton. As for London teams, we have 5 in the PL this season and there were 5 in 74-75.

Plus ca change....

I was talking about football as a whole rather than just the PL. I'm not a Sky Sports presenter.

 

[JJBlade]

Attendances are not so important nowadays as Wimbledon, Wigan, Bolton, Middlesbro, Reading, Blackburn, Burnley, Palace, Birmingham, Wolves, Fulham, QPR, Norwich, Hull, Forest, Derby, Leicester, Ipswich, Portsmouth, Stoke have all proven. We would probably attract bigger gates than all of them in the Premier League, only Wolves with the extended stadium and Derby with a slightly larger stadium would rival us.
These clubs have all had a bit of real success and whilst it cannot be maintained indefinitely it is certainly better than we have had despite generally smaller attendances.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

If we became a mainstay in the Premier League I think our average attendance would realistically hover around 22,000/23,000 after the first couple of seasons.

 

[JJBlade]

If we became a mainstay in the Premier League I think our average attendance would realistically hover around 22,000/23,000 after the first couple of seasons.

Absolute bullshit.
Every year we stay in the Premier League would mean improvement on the pitch and more people willing to pay to watch the even better players.
We aren't getting far off your 22,000 - 23,000 after having become a mainstay in Division Three

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Absolute bullshit.
Every year we stay in the Premier League would mean improvement on the pitch and more people willing to pay to watch the even better players.
We aren't getting far off your 22,000 - 23,000 after having become a mainstay in Division Three

That seems a pretty simplistic way of looking at it.

We're getting good crowds now because we're challenging for promotion. When you're getting thumped most weeks in the Premier League the novelty soon wears off.

 

[Darren]

That seems a pretty simplistic way of looking at it.

We're getting good crowds now because we're challenging for promotion. When you're getting thumped most weeks in the Premier League the novelty soon wears off.

But if we were PL mainstays, we would not be getting thumped most week. If we became a mid table PL side we would get 30K average easy. Even when we have been shit in this division we have been getting 18,000 and struggling against relegation in the 2nd tier in 2010-11 we got 22,000ish.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

But if we were PL mainstays, we would not be getting thumped most week. If we became a mid table PL side we would get 30K average easy. Even when we have been shit in this division we have been getting 18,000 and struggling against relegation in the 2nd tier in 2010-11 we got 22,000ish.

Even a mid table Premier League team loses more matches than it wins. You're lucky to get 10 home wins a season. It gets dramatically worse the further down the league you go.

 

[Grecian2000]

But if we were PL mainstays, we would not be getting thumped most week. If we became a mid table PL side we would get 30K average easy. Even when we have been shit in this division we have been getting 18,000 and struggling against relegation in the 2nd tier in 2010-11 we got 22,000ish.

I think we are more ticket price sensitive than a lot of the "big" clubs though. The trick to maintaining a 30k average would be to hold proces down to a sustainable level and not rush to the £50 on the Kop level that certain clubs seem to do.

 

[Darren]

Even a mid table Premier League team loses more matches than it wins. You're lucky to get 10 home wins a season. It gets dramatically worse the further down the league you go.

Everton and West Ham are currently 10th and 11th in the PL. Their records:

Everton P34 W11 D11 L12 F44 A43
WHU P34 W11 D11 L12 F42 A42

They're hardly getting hammered "most weeks". Both also have average crowds of well over 30K.

You are suggesting we would only fill 2/3 of the ground. can you point to any PL team with an attendance that low?

 

[Revolution]

Everton and West Ham are currently 10th and 11th in the PL. Their records:

Everton P34 W11 D11 L12 F44 A43
WHU P34 W11 D11 L12 F42 A42

They're hardly getting hammered "most weeks". Both also have average crowds of well over 30K.

You are suggesting we would only fill 2/3 of the ground. can you point to any PL team with an attendance that low?

Villa is the worst re percentage capacity I think. Not sure what the exact percentage is.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

You are suggesting we would only fill 2/3 of the ground. can you point to any PL team with an attendance that low?

Attendance stats are an arse to find.

My original estimation was probably a bit low but I highly doubt we would continue to average 30,000 after the first couple of seasons.

Wednesday were only averaging about 24,000 when they got relegated from the Premier League.

 

[Revolution]

Attendance stats are an arse to find.

My original estimation was probably a bit low but I highly doubt we would continue to average 30,000 after the first couple of seasons.

Wednesday were only averaging about 24,000 when they got relegated from the Premier League.

There are only 2 clubs this season who are averaging less than 88% of their capacity; Hull(71%) and Villa (77%).

I think today the Pigs would do a lot better than a 24k average.

 

[Darren]

There are only 2 clubs this season who are averaging less than 88% of their capacity; Hull(71%) and Villa (77%).

I think today the Pigs would do a lot better than a 24k average.

Hull is a strange one. You would think the novelty would not have worn off for them, especially given last season's cup run.

The rugby town factor?

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

There are only 2 clubs this season who are averaging less than 88% of their capacity; Hull(71%) and Villa (77%).

That doesn't really tell you anything though because QPR, Swansea, Burnley, Hull and Crystal Palace have small stadiums.

 

[Darren]

Attendance stats are an arse to find.

My original estimation was probably a bit low but I highly doubt we would continue to average 30,000 after the first couple of seasons.

Wednesday were only averaging about 24,000 when they got relegated from the Premier League.

I give you West Brom. 5th consecutive season in the PL, bit of a nothing lower mid table season won 9 and lost 15 of their games, average atteandnce 25,081 in a stadium that holds 27,000 = 93% full.

 

[JJBlade]

That seems a pretty simplistic way of looking at it.

We're getting good crowds now because we're challenging for promotion. When you're getting thumped most weeks in the Premier League the novelty soon wears off.

What part of this season or last come to think of it felt like a promotion challenging season ?
Your posts are the same as what they always are, it's all about downgrading and belittling United and slyly working out a way to have a dig at its fans.

United in the Premier League would not average less than 30,000 in the first three years, if we survive those three years it will be because we have bought quality players, if we have quality players the attendances would either increase or hold up the same if the stadium remained the same size.

The only way to see a clubs potential is to test it, no United boardroom has done.........Ever. It's always been about limitations instead of potential, and in spite of this we are a club that is as well supported as many higher division clubs without making a really decent and serious challenge for promotion since our first year down here. Battling to get in the play offs is not an achievement as far as I'm concerned and it obviously isn't to almost all other United fans either otherwise they would be happy.

 

[Revolution]

That doesn't really tell you anything though because QPR, Swansea, Burnley, Hull and Crystal Palace have small stadiums.

It tells you that everyone else with big stadiums is doing better than you say we or the Pigs would.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

What part of this season or last come to think of it felt like a promotion challenging season ?
Your posts are the same as what they always are, it's all about downgrading and belittling United and slyly working out a way to have a dig at its fans.

So are you saying attendances would have been a lot higher this season if we were challenging for automatic promotion?

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

It tells you that everyone else with big stadiums is doing better than you say we or the Pigs would.

I'm saying we wouldn't sustain an average of 30,000 after the first couple of seasons.

It's hard to prove or disprove until it actually happens.

 

[Darren]

I'm saying we wouldn't sustain an average of 30,000 after the first couple of seasons.

It's hard to prove or disprove until it actually happens.

But the evidence that we have is overwhelmingly against you. WBA's attendances are higher now after 5 seasons of doing nothing much in the PL then they were on their first season after promotion in 2010-11

To sustain your case you need to sho a club's attendances falling after a prolonged stay in the PL.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

But the evidence that we have is overwhelmingly against you. WBA's attendances are higher now after 5 seasons of doing nothing much in the PL then they were on their first season after promotion in 2010-11

To sustain your case you need to sho a club's attendances falling after a prolonged stay in the PL.

Middlesbrough



Wigan

 

[Darren]

Middlesbrough

View attachment 11507

Wigan

View attachment 11508

Those are declines between 8 and 9.5%, which on a 30,000 crowd would mean a decline to between 27,000 and 27,600.

That's on a worse case scenario. I expect there are more WBA's than Wigans and Middlesbroughs.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Blackburn's declined heavily but then went back up again when they achieved a top six finish.

They still ended up with lower crowds than they started with though.

2001-02 - 25,976
2011-12 - 22,551

 

[Darren]

Blackburn's declined heavily but then went back up again when they achieved a top six finish.

They still ended up with lower crowds than they started with though.

2001-02 - 25,976
2011-12 - 22,551

What are Sunderland's crowds like - they have been treading water in the PL since 2007.

 

[WorkingtonBlade]

You get a bit of a drop after the first couple of years because the away followings drop, as you are no longer a no longer a novelty ground to visit.

Taking the Wigan example, I remember In their first couple of years in the Premier League clubs used to take very large numbers (taking advantage of their big ground and small home crowds) and even outnumber the home fans. In more recent years the away followings have dropped off as the novelty wore off.

I suspect most if not all of the drop shown in those figures is away followings.

Stoke are another team who have continued to sell out the home allocation to see season after season of lower mid-table Premier League football. Their crowds were lower than ours when they were in the Championship.

I'm confident that with sensible pricing we'd continue to sell out the current ground most weeks for an extended stay in the top flight. What is more interesting to me is if we got the ground extended to a capacity of - say - 40,0000, what could we average then?

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

But if we were PL mainstays, we would not be getting thumped most week. If we became a mid table PL side we would get 30K average easy. Even when we have been shit in this division we have been getting 18,000 and struggling against relegation in the 2nd tier in 2010-11 we got 22,000ish.

Wouldn't it be nice to be a championship mainstay for a while.

We could be discussing what crowds we get and then comparing them .

UTB

 

[JJBlade]

I'm saying we wouldn't sustain an average of 30,000 after the first couple of seasons.

It's hard to prove or disprove until it actually happens.

Well don't say it then,
And yes I do think that this season in particular the attendances would have been extremely high following on from the feel good factor of last season if we'd have started well and ripped the Division a new arse like Bristol have done.