Against ‘Park the Bus’

[Eric Cartman]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasing to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay and overlapping on the side of the box. I know this is designed to pull the defence about a bit but against that tactic it won’t work as there’s too many men back.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

 

[Carlton Blade]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasting to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay on the side of the box.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

The atmosphere last night gave them the energy to give a shit for 90 minutes. Most teams won't or can't do that. We had our gilt edged opportunity and missed it.

But moving the ball more quickly would make a massive difference. 1 and 2 touch in the opposition final 3rd rather than stopping and looking up as much as we did last night could help

 

[Pollingtonblade]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasing to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay and overlapping on the side of the box. I know this is designed to pull the defence about a bit but against that tactic it won’t work as there’s too many men back.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

Have you thought about becoming a football coach?

 

[Danny_Blade]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasing to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay and overlapping on the side of the box. I know this is designed to pull the defence about a bit but against that tactic it won’t work as there’s too many men back.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

Completely agree, the biggest frustration last night for me.

Too many needless passes and unnecessary tiny passes in and around their box. The longer we keep hold of the ball doing things like that then the more time it gives the opposition to re-organise themselves to face whatever we're going to try and do.

 

[Eric Cartman]

Have you thought about becoming a football coach?

Good input

 

[vorpal blade]

It's quite common for this to happen to us - the play just gets bunged up, its like if you filled a bottle up with rice and tried to pour it out - it wouldn't work would it?

we have to entice the opposition's players out of their half (or penalty area) in order to get round them, it's more of a gambling game but hey, that's football isn't it? When I watch us, it seems that if we don't score early on; when the play is always more open, we get stuck in the bottle-neck.

I reckon, if you don't have a seriously gifted forward or two + a creative midfield, you'll never get that much using our system, our last pass into the box is usually just guesswork and 50/50 compared to the carefully directed passes earlier on, further back in the move. (we had a seriously gifted forward last season but he's gone before we saw the best of him IMO). But I doubt we'll have a player of Brook's calibre for the next 50 years so we have to play a riskier game somehow to open up the opposition defence. (Look how good Brooks made Leon Clarke look)

Coutts might have made a difference in the second half last night because when he combines with Duffy and Fleck the trio can be unpredictable which is the essence of beating a player and hence, a team. I'm right in thinking that Norwood and Coutts on the field simultaneously has barely been tried yet?

 

[Carlton Blade]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasing to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay and overlapping on the side of the box. I know this is designed to pull the defence about a bit but against that tactic it won’t work as there’s too many men back.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

And I think there are times when Norwood being stood next to Egan is unnecessary. We need Norwood to play in the opposition half a little more. He's our best passer of the ball and I'd like to see him on the ball on more attacking areas sometimes

 

[SteveBlade]

Score a goal.

That game was basically the Bury home game in League One. They'd lost their last 50 games and looked set to get a point against us, with 9 bloody men as well.

We were more dominant yesterday than we were against 9 man Bury in League One.

Let's think about that.

 

[cjx blade]

Shouldn't the title be Pork the Bus?

 

[Eric Cartman]

Shouldn't the title be Pork the Bus?

God damn it

 

[TJB.]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

I don't think that's true. You won't see a bigger case of bus parking this season, unless you fancy a day trip to Olive Grove depot.

If you mean how do we get through sides defending staunchly (a lot of sides do this with the intention of counter attacking...Pigs were clueless at this), we just need to be a bit quicker in thought. One of our big weaknesses last year after Coutts got injured was fannying about in the final third and CW has done well to rectify it, but we seem to revert back to this at times of frustration.

A great example of this was towards the end where Fleck (I think) launched a tame, easily caught shot from outside the area when Freeman was in acres of space and would've been the better option. We're all about high quality, high percentage chances so it's annoying to see our lads making choices like that when we're not quite getting the rub of the green.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

They patched together an improvised formation and stuck to a plan, but I haven't seen a worse side away or at the Lane this season, footballing wise.

 

[BladeFisher]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasing to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay and overlapping on the side of the box. I know this is designed to pull the defence about a bit but against that tactic it won’t work as there’s too many men back.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

Shooting ! We fanny around when a hard shot may well get through so long as its low or knee height. Fleck guilty of not shooting enough also Duffy. Norwood was poor at times last night. Note to Ollie - one defence splitting pass doesn't make you a Tony Currie. Second half his efforts were piss poor.

 

[Mad Mick]

I thought we moved the ball rather well and quickly, especially in the first half. If we had put the penalty away we could have scored a lot more. Some of the long passes were sublime. Just one of those nights methinks.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Very simply I believe that the counter to teams that pack their own box with a many-manned defence is to run at it (with the ball, obviously). Feeding crosses and clever through balls into a melee of players is very difficult, but dribbling through them creates panic and with tackles going in from left and right you have a high chance of a penalty or you might just get through them and be on goal. We pass tremendously well and I wouldn't want to see that diminish, but we don't take players on enough.

 

[Eric Cartman]

Very simply I believe that the counter to teams that pack their own box with a many-manned defence is to run at it (with the ball, obviously). Feeding crosses and clever through balls into a melee of players is very difficult, but dribbling through them creates panic and with tackles going in from left and right you have a high chance of a penalty or you might just get through them and be on goal. We pass tremendously well and I wouldn't want to see that diminish, but we don't take players on enough.

Duffy was guilty of trying to take too many men on yesterday but at least he was trying to make things happen. Fleck is a fantastic dribbler and scares the defence to death when he gets running but rarely does (Derby anyone?). JOC and Basham are both very capable too, ala Maguire. We NEED to do that more.

 

[Harry's Game]

I think we did show a little fear factor ourselves last night, I think if we had been playing that dominant against anyone but Wednesday we would have pulled a defender around the 70 minute mark and gone all out up top.

However I don’t think CW wanted to lose the derby on a sucker punch break away which is perhaps understandable.

 

[SwissBlade]

What things can we do right now to improve instantly against sides like yesterday that put 10, 11 at times behind the ball and have no interest in coming out? It’s still another 2 months till the transfer window opens so we’re certain to face another few of them yet.

For me yesterday we didn’t quicken the play up nearly enough. When we had a few breaks after their ‘attacks’ that was the time we could’ve made them pay but we didn’t capitalise or made the wrong decision. By the time we’d got into a dangerous area it was too late because they’d got everyone back.

Another for Freeman and Stevens - stop, fucking, cutting, inside. Cutting inside, pasing to Fleck, Fleck runs forward passes to JOC, back to Stevens, Duffy gets involved, it goes back to Stevens - by the time they’ve done all this Wednesday have got everyone and their dog back in the box so the perfect cross is nigh on impossible. A first time cross is by far the best option in this scenario, not our usual 10 pass interplay and overlapping on the side of the box. I know this is designed to pull the defence about a bit but against that tactic it won’t work as there’s too many men back.

Anything else that we could improve on right now against sides like that? We can’t keep dropping points against them.

There were huge differences to the bus parking episode in the previous derby. Last night was fine lines. Watching the game now. it was a fantastic performance, we created clear cut chances and we broke them down a lot more than i realised in during the game.

But it was very tough to break them down and they had just one plan. No thought to attack and go at us on the counter. They came for 0-0 and got it with an 8-1-1 formation.

There are things we can do, of course, we play an unbelievably expansive game and i think that your comments which i've highlighted are suggesting that they broke forward in numbers are way off the mark. They had very few attacks, but when they did, they didn't come forward in numbers. So the point about them regrouping and getting everyone back before we got the ball in the box are a little unfair.

The passing which you don't like has served us brilliantly all season and the two before. Duffy was switching wings, as were Stevens and Freeman. We had fleck taking shots from distance, we had Norwood switching play, McG linking up play, Bash and JOC getting forward and into the box.

I'd like to see some smarter and quicker play at times, like you say, but we did move the ball quickly.

Mostly the corners weren't great, we were trying front post and far, we mixed it up but we didn't threaten too much.

It didn't drop last night. Last night is not a concern as i'd say that you play games like that and you win a lot more than you draw. The forest game was where i thought we had more cause for concern as we needed that Plan B. Plan A yesterday worked well. Can't complain too much.

Against Forest i thought it was crying out for a pacey striker, someone to stretch a side that was attacking us, perhaps a pacey player to run at the opposition - A Brooks type.

On the Bench last night we had Washington and Johnson. On Saturday we had Woodburn too. I'd like us to give these lads more time so that they're not coming in for 5-10 min cameo's every now and then.

Between now and January we need to use the squad better:
Freeman/ Baldock
Stevens/ Johnson
Duffy/ Woodburn
Coutts/ Norwood/Fleck
Clarke/ McG
Sharp/ Washington

If the back three is fit, i wouldn't change them

 

[Sikkim]

Shooting ! We fanny around when a hard shot may well get through so long as its low or knee height. Fleck guilty of not shooting enough also Duffy. Norwood was poor at times last night. Note to Ollie - one defence splitting pass doesn't make you a Tony Currie. Second half his efforts were piss poor.

 

[LJBlade]

I don't think that's true. You won't see a bigger case of bus parking this season, unless you fancy a day trip to Olive Grove depot.

If you mean how do we get through sides defending staunchly (a lot of sides do this with the intention of counter attacking...Pigs were clueless at this), we just need to be a bit quicker in thought. One of our big weaknesses last year after Coutts got injured was fannying about in the final third and CW has done well to rectify it, but we seem to revert back to this at times of frustration.

A great example of this was towards the end where Fleck (I think) launched a tame, easily caught shot from outside the area when Freeman was in acres of space and would've been the better option. We're all about high quality, high percentage chances so it's annoying to see our lads making choices like that when we're not quite getting the rub of the green.

This.

The OP is suggesting that other teams will do what Wednesday did yesterday, they won’t. There will be teams who turn up with defensive tactics, and I agree we need to be better at breaking these teams down, but we won’t ever see it to the extent that we saw yesterday. It would’ve been difficult for any team to break them down yesterday.

 

[LJBlade]

Can’t be true, according to the guy I overheard this morning Wednesday had as many chances to score as we did

I assume he must’ve been a Wednesday fan

 

[Roygbiv]

Unless we get a non league side at home in the cup, no side will play like that against us this season. Our issue isn't breaking down teams as such , it's about taking the chances we do create and having a better final ball.

Last night was farcical in how deep Wednesday were and it was only the importance of the occasion that saw them through. In more "normal" games the opposition will eventually cave.

 

[Speedracer]

Norwood was poor at times last night. Note to Ollie - one defence splitting pass doesn't make you a Tony Currie. Second half his efforts were piss poor.

Speaking as TC's biggest fan (really, I am), I think that is harsh on Norwood. If there were one thing to wish about him is him stepping 15/20 yards up the pitch to do what he does. We don't need him stepping on Egans feet to collect the ball from him, if he moves up the pitch so does the rest of the team & that causes more problems for the opposition.

 

[BushBlade]

Very simply I believe that the counter to teams that pack their own box with a many-manned defence is to run at it (with the ball, obviously). Feeding crosses and clever through balls into a melee of players is very difficult, but dribbling through them creates panic and with tackles going in from left and right you have a high chance of a penalty or you might just get through them and be on goal. We pass tremendously well and I wouldn't want to see that diminish, but we don't take players on enough.

Tend to agree, when a player beats a man it drags the rest of defence out of position. You need a player with a brain though, who knows where and when to do it, they’re not easy to find.

 

[BushBlade]

I think we did show a little fear factor ourselves last night, I think if we had been playing that dominant against anyone but Wednesday we would have pulled a defender around the 70 minute mark and gone all out up top.

However I don’t think CW wanted to lose the derby on a sucker punch break away which is perhaps understandable.

I thought we didn’t play many risky balls all game, hence what some have called ‘fannying around’, our first instinct was to retain possession rather than put an early ball in that may have been cut out and allowed the pigs to counter.

Tbh, it’s one game where I didn’t want us to go shit or bust. I can deal with the odd bad result against them but I’d be sick if they did the double. They can’t do that now this season.

 

[dc_blade]

People who go on about crossing earlier, shooting more, etc, should take it up with Wilder and not the players, because this is how they've been coached. They have it drummed into them *not* to hit and hope from 25 yards, *not* to blindly knock in a cross when there's no sign anyone will get on the end of it. We work it down one wing to try and create an opening for an accurate and low cross, and if we can't work an overload there we go back through Norwood to the other side and try again. Even when we have the opportunity to counter, you can see the players (except Norwood now) are reluctant to take a risk.

It can be almost frustrating at times, yes. But my view is that it's allowed Wilder to turn a group of willing but somewhat limited players into a team competing at the top of the division. Shooting earlier, crossing earlier, etc, would make us worse, not better. In my opinion.

As has been said, the only issue last night for us was the final ball. It's been the same since we got into the Championship. If Stevens and Freeman were slightly better crossers of the ball, if Duffy and Fleck were slightly better with a through ball or timed their runs slightly better, etc etc, we'd score more goals and win more matches. But to upgrade on any of these players you're talking millions.

It's hard for me to see how we can get any more out this group.

 

[William Large]

And I think there are times when Norwood being stood next to Egan is unnecessary. We need Norwood to play in the opposition half a little more. He's our best passer of the ball and I'd like to see him on the ball on more attacking areas sometimes

I agree, his range of passing is immense but I would like to see how he does 20 yards further forward. The final ball into the box is rarely supplied by Norwood. In this aspect I think Coutts was more effective. That said, he is an absolute joy to watch at times and maybe we should be more critical of Fleck / Duffy / Stevens / Freeman, as last night they were guilty of overplaying and nearly always looking to go outside. We should have got the ball in the box quicker and maybe looked to to through the middle now and again.
Maybe a bit harsh because we comprehensive outplayed the Pork last night and were unlucky not to have won.

 

[BushBlade]

People who go on about crossing earlier, shooting more, etc, should take it up with Wilder and not the players, because this is how they've been coached. They have it drummed into them *not* to hit and hope from 25 yards, *not* to blindly knock in a cross when there's no sign anyone will get on the end of it. We work it down one wing to try and create an opening for an accurate and low cross, and if we can't work an overload there we go back through Norwood to the other side and try again. Even when we have the opportunity to counter, you can see the players (except Norwood now) are reluctant to take a risk.

It can be almost frustrating at times, yes. But my view is that it's allowed Wilder to turn a group of willing but somewhat limited players into a team competing at the top of the division. Shooting earlier, crossing earlier, etc, would make us worse, not better. In my opinion.

As has been said, the only issue last night for us was the final ball. It's been the same since we got into the Championship. If Stevens and Freeman were slightly better crossers of the ball, if Duffy and Fleck were slightly better with a through ball or timed their runs slightly better, etc etc, we'd score more goals and win more matches. But to upgrade on any of these players you're talking millions.

It's hard for me to see how we can get any more out this group.

Agree, our system (and the players’ commitment to it) is why the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Like it was under Bassett but with passing.

 

[Topplayersleave]

People who go on about crossing earlier, shooting more, etc, should take it up with Wilder and not the players, because this is how they've been coached. They have it drummed into them *not* to hit and hope from 25 yards, *not* to blindly knock in a cross when there's no sign anyone will get on the end of it. We work it down one wing to try and create an opening for an accurate and low cross, and if we can't work an overload there we go back through Norwood to the other side and try again. Even when we have the opportunity to counter, you can see the players (except Norwood now) are reluctant to take a risk.

It can be almost frustrating at times, yes. But my view is that it's allowed Wilder to turn a group of willing but somewhat limited players into a team competing at the top of the division. Shooting earlier, crossing earlier, etc, would make us worse, not better. In my opinion.

As has been said, the only issue last night for us was the final ball. It's been the same since we got into the Championship. If Stevens and Freeman were slightly better crossers of the ball, if Duffy and Fleck were slightly better with a through ball or timed their runs slightly better, etc etc, we'd score more goals and win more matches. But to upgrade on any of these players you're talking millions.

It's hard for me to see how we can get any more out this group.

I remember when Arsenal were the best team in the Country, I chose Arsenal because of all the clubs that have had a period of dominance Arsenal were the best to watch for flair, creativity, pace and sheer footballing ability.
There was always something more mechanical about Chelsea and Man Utd, but Arsenal was just pure entertainment at times

I remember watching them on TV and saying they never play a hopeful ball, they never try something that's not on, they control it, look around and if nothings on they either keep it or play it simple.

The difference between us and them (In relative terms) is the intelligence of the forward players and the attacking midfielders and wing backs movement ensuring that something was ALWAYS on

We're trying to look for those perfect passes and because they're not on we're keeping hold of the ball which is good, we'll keep the ball all day if we have to, but occasionally like last night that perfect pass is never on and it's frustrating.

A quality striker of a different type to Sharp and another attacking midfielder is the difference between us staying where we are and making the next step

 

[dc_blade]

A quality striker of a different type to Sharp and another attacking midfielder is the difference between us staying where we are and making the next step

Sounds about right.

New striker, even just as an option off the bench or to provide real competition. I've been a big defender of Leon but I now struggle to see him making a big contribution.

A no. 10 to compete with Duffy. Someone who scores goals from that position would be nice. If Woodburn isn't trusted to play that role let's get rid, because we have no place in our budget for passengers.

This might be controversial, but I'm starting to worry a bit about RWB. Freeman started the season well but has been poor for four or five matches now. Not convinced Baldock is the answer. Such a crucial position for us, because without someone reliable in this role we also don't make the most of Basham's marauding runs.