Grappling in the Box - suggestions please

[Yewsman]

How does the ref make those decisions in open play?

In open play ref is watching ball and basically 2 or 3 players around ball. At corner there are probably 18-20 players in pen area and potentially and in practice all of them are pushing, pulling, grabbing, obstructing all at the same time. If player A grabs and pulls shirt of player B and player B tries to get free by pushing Player A away. Foul is committed by player A first but if ref only sees the push by Player B then he gives foul against player B.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

In open play ref is watching ball and basically 2 or 3 players around ball. At corner there are probably 18-20 players in pen area and potentially and in practice all of them are pushing, pulling, grabbing, obstructing all at the same time. If player A grabs and pulls shirt of player B and player B tries to get free by pushing Player A away. Foul is committed by player A first but if ref only sees the push by Player B then he gives foul against player B.

In the first week there will be some wrong decisions.
After that defenders will be scared of an almost deffo penalty and attackers scared of straight free kick to defending team.

If any change, put the lino behind the net. But that involves lino actually making a decision.

 

[N20 Blade]

Over the last 40 years or so the majority of rule changes have worked well. Some superbly i.e. three points for a win and the back pass change. Next season failure to get off the pitch within 30 seconds will result in the substitute not being allowed on for a further minute and the next break in play. Sensible.

The problem with the corner / set piece infringements is that it's too much for the ref and assistant to monitor accurately. Often six of one, half a dozen of the other. Whilst VAR detracts from many elements of a game, it lends itself to officiating this area. A panel of officials closely watching each set play and making the decision real-time.

Similar to monitoring no balls in cricket. Take it away from the onfield officials.

 

[Yewsman]

Over the last 40 years or so the majority of rule changes have worked well. Some superbly i.e. three points for a win and the back pass change. Next season failure to get off the pitch within 30 seconds will result in the substitute not being allowed on for a further minute and the next break in play. Sensible.

The problem with the corner / set piece infringements is that it's too much for the ref and assistant to monitor accurately. Often six of one, half a dozen of the other. Whilst VAR detracts from many elements of a game, it lends itself to officiating this area. A panel of officials closely watching each set play and making the decision real-time.

Similar to monitoring no balls in cricket. Take it away from the onfield officials.

Sounds all well and good. However there are incessant problems with VAR. Sometimes it takes the men in the studio several minutes to decide even on something straight forward. Added to this the numbers of times they still get decisions completely wrong is a massive problem. Put these two together and are they really going to get the correct decision for this and in a reasonable time frame?

 

[N20 Blade]

Sounds all well and good. However there are incessant problems with VAR. Sometimes it takes the men in the studio several minutes to decide even on something straight forward. Added to this the numbers of times they still get decisions completely wrong is a massive problem. Put these two together and are they really going to get the correct decision for this and in a reasonable time frame?

That would be the challenge. They would need to step up for sure and it's probably idealistic and far fetched given the current set up. Maybe the committe approach is the problem. Perhaps one man like the 3rd umpire in complete control would work better. But hopefully its very existence would prove a worthy deterrent after some actual free kicks and penalties are awarded. Currently there seems an absence of jeopardy which defenders and attackers exploit.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Sounds all well and good. However there are incessant problems with VAR. Sometimes it takes the men in the studio several minutes to decide even on something straight forward. Added to this the numbers of times they still get decisions completely wrong is a massive problem. Put these two together and are they really going to get the correct decision for this and in a reasonable time frame?

Regards VAR getting decisions wrong

Anyone notice how the fans and even the manager on the wrong side of a VAR decision..….are adamant there’s been an injustice as VAR is wrong
However the fans, players and even the manager gaining from a VAR decision always say the VAR decision was correct.

Regards VAR also notice how a panel of studio experts can watch a video in slow motion several times
And even they can’t decide what the correct decision is……sometimes you do find 50/50 subjective scenarios.
You see this often with penalties, the video shows clear contact so some say it must be a penalty where as others say the contact was soft so shouldn’t be a penalty.

So it’s attitudes that are wrong not actually VAR.

I’ll give a great example.
A few year back Spurs were at home to Sporting Lisbon in the Champions league and needed a win to qualify from the group.
Think they were losing……it was all Spurs on the attack creating chance after chance….great game to watch with Spurs playing really well.
Spurs scored a later deserved equaliser….the atmosphere was fantastic….Spurs now needed 1 more goal.

Incredibly deep into injury time Harry Kane scored the winner….the new Spurs stadium erupts…..the goal seems to count….the Spurs fans were celebrating.
Then it came up “VAR are checking possible offside”. They took ages and decided Kane’s big toe was offside in the build up.

The freeze frame video clearly showed Kane was just offside by a few inch….so goal correctly disallowed….unlucky Spurs.

Incredibly Conte was furious with VAR in the post match interview…..he actually said VAR was destroying a great and historic moment for the fans.
And he also said there’s no way VAR would have intervened if it was Real Madrid or Barcelona scoring an injury time winner.

Shockingly even the English media (the morning papers) were slagging off VAR and said the goal should have counted because it killed a great moment for the new stadium.

I’m thinking “isn’t VAR supposed to apply the rules?” Kane was clearly offside (yeh it was minimal) but found it odd that no one was interested in the correct decision.
On balance of play Spurs deserved to win. The celebrations in the stadium when the winner went in were incredible….so that’s their logic why it should stand.

 

[LBA_Blade]

In the first week there will be some wrong decisions.
After that defenders will be scared of an almost deffo penalty and attackers scared of straight free kick to defending team.

If any change, put the lino behind the net. But that involves lino actually making a decision.

Also got a problem that the assistant will have to get back into position when the first touch is made to be able to judge offside so he will be backtracking for 30-40 yards whilst keeping level with the 2nd to last defender. If the ball is won and headed clear by the defender and hooked back in by the attacker you will have an assistant running backwards but also trying to keep an eye on that too. If any changes for personnel for me, it would to bring in a 2nd on-field referee. When the ball is in play the one referee takes each half similar to how assistant referees do, when it's a corner, one referee takes a position on the goal line with the other advancing as close as they can on the edge of the penalty area, if it is cleared he will be able to catch play up, handing over as needed.

 

[Yewsman]

Regards VAR getting decisions wrong

Anyone notice how the fans and even the manager on the wrong side of a VAR decision..….are adamant there’s been an injustice as VAR is wrong
However the fans, players and even the manager gaining from a VAR decision always say the VAR decision was correct.

Regards VAR also notice how a panel of studio experts can watch a video in slow motion several times
And even they can’t decide what the correct decision is……sometimes you do find 50/50 subjective scenarios.
You see this often with penalties, the video shows clear contact so some say it must be a penalty where as others say the contact was soft so shouldn’t be a penalty.

So it’s attitudes that are wrong not actually VAR.

I’ll give a great example.
A few year back Spurs were at home to Sporting Lisbon in the Champions league and needed a win to qualify from the group.
Think they were losing……it was all Spurs on the attack creating chance after chance….great game to watch with Spurs playing really well.
Spurs scored a later deserved equaliser….the atmosphere was fantastic….Spurs now needed 1 more goal.

Incredibly deep into injury time Harry Kane scored the winner….the new Spurs stadium erupts…..the goal seems to count….the Spurs fans were celebrating.
Then it came up “VAR are checking possible offside”. They took ages and decided Kane’s big toe was offside in the build up.

The freeze frame video clearly showed Kane was just offside by a few inch….so goal correctly disallowed….unlucky Spurs.

Incredibly Conte was furious with VAR in the post match interview…..he actually said VAR was destroying a great and historic moment for the fans.
And he also said there’s no way VAR would have intervened if it was Real Madrid or Barcelona scoring an injury time winner.

Shockingly even the English media (the morning papers) were slagging off VAR and said the goal should have counted because it killed a great moment for the new stadium.

I’m thinking “isn’t VAR supposed to apply the rules?” Kane was clearly offside (yeh it was minimal) but found it odd that no one was interested in the correct decision.
On balance of play Spurs deserved to win. The celebrations in the stadium when the winner went in were incredible….so that’s their logic why it should stand.

Same thing happened to us at Spurs in EPL when Lunstram was given off side by his big toe. The fact is that VAR was not actually accurate enough to give that degree of a measurement. My understanding is that there is now a built in margin for error. Also when we scored a second "goal" v Sunderland last season in POF. We were all celebrating and ref was signalling a goal and walking back for ko when suddenly we hear VAR has intervened. We had all forgotten it was even there as it had not been at any other Champ game all season. I never want to watch another match where VAR is there.

 

[Silent Blade]

Use the hockey rule. Defenders behind the goal line until the corner is taken, attackers out side the 18 yard box.

Like that idea