92 points and AI

[Blade56]

These two things are dominating nearly every thread discussion. Can we dump/debunk them and the misunderstanding of them on here and get back to normal debate?

92 points
First off we did not finish with 92 points, yes we won 28 games and drew 8. But we broke the same rules are charged with and were deducted -2 points so. If anyone argues we finished on 92 it’s agreeing with that they shouldn’t get a points deduction.

Secondly 90 points won us nothing. Which would we rather have:
1. (92) 90 points and lose at Wembley?
2. Lose 3 out of 5 run in games, finish on 76 points and get promoted to the PL?

I won’t bother doing a pole or running it by AI because I know the answer.

Painful as it is this is how the table finished and we won sweat fa and Sunderland were promoted.

This was down to tactical nouse by Bris. He knew they were in the playoffs for a couple of months and their performances dipped, did he rest the team as results didn’t matter? He saved it for the semis and final of the play offs. He had the tactical ability I don’t think Wilder has. It was classic turtle and hare race with Wilder overusing the whip at the end (even though it no longer mattered) but Wilders stated pride and pashun to get to 90 points ran out and tactical nouse won. Let’s face it Bris did it on Lampard in the semis as well.

So, please can we stop arguing about 92(90) points? Either are totally irrelevant. That wasn’t the deciding factor in the end it was the managers tactical ability.

Yes, Wilder can probably get a good points tally again next season with turgid hit, run and hide football, but can he get us promotion?



AI
I honestly think reading some of the contributions that some think the new board come in on Monday morning and say to Alexa give me a list of strikers for £1m that will score 30 goals next season, get a list and give it to the manager to pick from, really?

Brentford, and Brighton have used data analytics for years and slowly built an infrastructure for recruitment that it’s hard to challenge as the gold standard. Brentford, little old Brentford, average crowds around 2,000 when we were storming the PL with Wilder, now they average 17,000 and are a stable PL club. Again, where would we rather be now? No pole required.

The competitive edge of AI/data analytics are so important Tottenham have just raided Brentford in a desperate attempt to get into the ‘modern game’ on the pitch in their shiny new stadium yet we seem to be arguing the opposite against AI (we’ve always used data even it was on pen and paper, a spread sheet etc). AI is just used to assimilate much more data (BIG data) in a nano second. Its success is only as good as the data it has access to ‘learn’ from, that’s where it gives a competitive advantage.

So, while everyone is turning to AI to analyse data should we stand like Luddite's with pick axe handles and pitch forks in hand denouncing it in favour of gut feel, grit and pashun to improve and get us over the line when a bit of tactical nouse is needed not just blood and guts? Nah, again don’t think I need to add a pole in.

So, get the 92 points and AI myths out on here in favour or debunk that’s your choice.

 

[SwissBlade]

Wembley doesn’t bother me, didn’t go had no interest in it. But whether you go with 90 or 92 we had an incredible season and in most other years would’ve gone up automatically. The manager and players should be given a huge amount of credit for this as well as Bettis. Hopefully Wilder is given another season to build on this and take us that one step further with automatics

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Agree

It's as irrelevant as the Ched season and can get in the bin and nearly as embarrassing as the "triple assault" season celebrations when we won the square route of fuck all

 

[JohnDenver]

Wembley doesn’t bother me, didn’t fix had no interest in it. But whether you go with 90 or 92 we had an incredible season and in most other years would’ve gone up automatically. The manager and players should be given a huge amount of credit for this as well as Bettis. Hopefully Wilder is given another season to build on this and take us that one step further with automatics

Aye, I can’t get too worked up about any of this. If Wilder stays we’ll have a proven gaffer and continuity. If Wilder goes then the new owners have a chance to plot their new course.

I’ll be watching the stickball this summer in state of sporting zen.

 

[DronnieBlade]

I think it is incredibly naive to even contemplate that player data analytics have NOT been used to some extent with previous player recruitment.

New owners appear to want to ramp this up. No problem. Let’s see how it goes.

But let’s not think for 1 minute that AI driven models are the be all and end all. They are not.

A useful tool ? Yes.

The only resource tool at our disposal ? Fuck no !!!

UTB

 

[GeorgeDonis1889]

You should start another thread laying out in detail why you want Wilder to go. I dont think you've done enough threads or posts about it. There may be people on here who haven't read the same endless, tedious thoughts 20 times in the last couple of days.

 

[Champagneblade]

I wouldn’t give LeBris much credit either.

They went into the Play Offs in abject form, were not the best side against Coventry but sneaked through mainly due to glaring mistakes.

In the final, he got his first half tactics totally wrong such that in any other game he’d have been 2-0 down and 3-0 or 4-0 at half time would not have been unfair, they were hopeless and we were not ruthless enough.

Second half was similar to Leeds and other games where we simply don’t have players fit enough to do what they need to for a full match. The fact Hamer and other came off injured was a massive boost to Sunderland whose winning goal was a result of us having a man light though, whether it was a risk worth taking at that stage is a question that benefits from hindsight. Can you hold out for 2 minutes with a man light to the benefit of getting it right in extra time? Most teams would. We failed at the vital moment.

Sunderland were pretty much one of the luckiest teams alive to get through the play offs but nobody cares because it’s a results business. Same as when we played Portsmouth at home. It was a useful 3 points but they were miles better. Unfortunately this went against us on the big stage. As per usual with United, unfortunately.

 

[Blade56]

Wembley doesn’t bother me, didn’t go had no interest in it. But whether you go with 90 or 92 we had an incredible season and in most other years would’ve gone up automatically. The manager and players should be given a huge amount of credit for this as well as Bettis. Hopefully Wilder is given another season to build on this and take us that one step further with automatics

You’ve still not shifted those 50/50 Wider/ AI scarfs have you?

 

[Blade56]

You should start another thread laying out in detail why you want Wilder to go. I dont think you've done enough threads or posts about it. There may be people on here who haven't read the same endless, tedious thoughts 20 times in the last couple of days.

Got to say I’ve enjoyed all your 13 previous contributions to the forum

 

[Booker4]

Few points here.

It was 92 points the team earned. It wasn't Wilders fault or the team that there was the points deduction. 8/10 of the last seasons that would result in promotion.

This turgid football point. Burnley's performances were very similar to ours in many matches, winning one nil countless times. Scott Parker inherited a very good team, better than Wilder had last summer and they still played an attritional defensive game, Sunderland were similar from what I saw too but De Bris inherited Tom Watson and Mayenda which were two of the better attacking players in the league. He also inherited most of that current team that got promoted. Wilder inherited a mess, albeit still with some good players but his recruitment last summer moulded is into a side that most seasons would go up.The injuries to Arblaster and Souttar (what a signing Souttar was by Wilder) cost us big time.

My last point is on AI/ developing over time/Brighton and Brentford.

A few posters have said I'm ok not going up if the model we adopt gets us there in with creative, athletic players, probably from abroad via data etc. I don't know if these fans have noted that the PL has gone on a level and some since Brentford and Brighton got promoted? We're likely to see most teams that go up to come straight back down whatever model they have. Bournemouth spent similar amounts to Forest to stay up. They needed instant PL players to do this, some came from the championship like Taverneir and Semenyo and Scott in Bournemouths case.

The rules on Brexit also make it harder to sign players from abroad like Brentford did. I appreciate there's the exception rule but they signed many players who would struggle for visa now from the second division in France etc. Norwich did similar too but in Germany.

Basically Brentford, Brighton in particular got promoted at a time when staying up, whilst difficult, was much more attainable than now. We finished 9th of course in our first season under Wilder. Can you see even Leeds finishing anything other than bottom five and they'll need to spend over £150m just to have a sniff at 4th bottom.

I definitely think there's a serious argument for a foreign manager more than ever who knows the French and Spanish leagues etc so we can utilise those markets and others more because that's where the value and quality is. When we've done it we've signed players not even good enough for the championship and made a mess of it!

In conclusion, I think sticking with Wilder with his knowledge of players in the UK would have been more than fine for next season. In the longer term I do think we're going to need to adopt a different approach but football has changed and it's becoming a closed ship regardless.

 

[Selly]

Let’s face it Bris did it on Lampard in the semis as well.

Hardly, they got lucky with two last gasp goals.

 

[wak1889]

These two things are dominating nearly every thread discussion. Can we dump/debunk them and the misunderstanding of them on here and get back to normal debate?

92 points
First off we did not finish with 92 points, yes we won 28 games and drew 8. But we broke the same rules are charged with and were deducted -2 points so. If anyone argues we finished on 92 it’s agreeing with that they shouldn’t get a points deduction.

Secondly 90 points won us nothing. Which would we rather have:
1. (92) 90 points and lose at Wembley?
2. Lose 3 out of 5 run in games, finish on 76 points and get promoted to the PL?

I won’t bother doing a pole or running it by AI because I know the answer.

Painful as it is this is how the table finished and we won sweat fa and Sunderland were promoted.

This was down to tactical nouse by Bris. He knew they were in the playoffs for a couple of months and their performances dipped, did he rest the team as results didn’t matter? He saved it for the semis and final of the play offs. He had the tactical ability I don’t think Wilder has. It was classic turtle and hare race with Wilder overusing the whip at the end (even though it no longer mattered) but Wilders stated pride and pashun to get to 90 points ran out and tactical nouse won. Let’s face it Bris did it on Lampard in the semis as well.

So, please can we stop arguing about 92(90) points? Either are totally irrelevant. That wasn’t the deciding factor in the end it was the managers tactical ability.

Yes, Wilder can probably get a good points tally again next season with turgid hit, run and hide football, but can he get us promotion?

View attachment 213433

AI
I honestly think reading some of the contributions that some think the new board come in on Monday morning and say to Alexa give me a list of strikers for £1m that will score 30 goals next season, get a list and give it to the manager to pick from, really?

Brentford, and Brighton have used data analytics for years and slowly built an infrastructure for recruitment that it’s hard to challenge as the gold standard. Brentford, little old Brentford, average crowds around 2,000 when we were storming the PL with Wilder, now they average 17,000 and are a stable PL club. Again, where would we rather be now? No pole required.

The competitive edge of AI/data analytics are so important Tottenham have just raided Brentford in a desperate attempt to get into the ‘modern game’ on the pitch in their shiny new stadium yet we seem to be arguing the opposite against AI (we’ve always used data even it was on pen and paper, a spread sheet etc). AI is just used to assimilate much more data (BIG data) in a nano second. Its success is only as good as the data it has access to ‘learn’ from, that’s where it gives a competitive advantage.

So, while everyone is turning to AI to analyse data should we stand like Luddite's with pick axe handles and pitch forks in hand denouncing it in favour of gut feel, grit and pashun to improve and get us over the line when a bit of tactical nouse is needed not just blood and guts? Nah, again don’t think I need to add a pole in.

So, get the 92 points and AI myths out on here in favour or debunk that’s your choice.

Exactly what I said even down to the Alexa bit - great minds and all that

 

[GeorgeDonis1889]

Got to say I’ve enjoyed all your 13 previous contributions to the forum

Cheers. It's not a competition about who posts most. Your not winning because you've made 26k posts. You're just repeating the same couple of points over and over again.

 

[metalblade]

I'm sick to death of reading this "92pts give him another chance shite". Leeds and Burnley were nothing that special even if they did achieve 100pts from one of the poorest Championship ever there was only ever four teams in the promotion race. A very young Sunderland were the first to fall to the pressure but were so far ahead of the rest they knew they were in the play offs. Leeds had a big wobble which left us top with not many games left and we imploded.
We were looking good until Souter got injured Wilder made his first mistake by not replacing him, he had three weeks to do it instead he loans a player who isn't fit and buys a striker we didn't really need.
Then we had the embarrassing dancing on the tables (beating a piss poor pig side was not that big a thing). Poor performances most of the season scraping 1-0 wins only scoring more than twice a few times. Still it still looked good being top with 5 or 6 games to go three of them against relegation threatened teams yet Wilder still plays defensive playing his favourites even if they are not in their best positions. Three losses on the bounce threw away auto promotion and Wilder lost the plot blaming anyone but himself (sounds familiar) poor discipline on and of the field and a quarter of a million in fines.
What says it all for me is against the top four contenders we won one and lost the rest, we were good at getting results against the poor side but came up short when it mattered no plan B if plan A wasn't working. Wilder bigging up the other teams put it into the players heads that they were better than us, we lost those games in the dressing room. No doubt Wilder is still blaming VAR for throwing away the play off final when in reality it was his go defensive tactics and inability to change things in the second half.
He really does have to go he is a busted flush, certainly not the manager who stumbled onto a winning formula in 2019.

 

[HeySethUTB]

Great podcast by the athletic tactics.

 

[dexter101]

I don't agree with about the Sunderland manager.

If they had completely dominated us and Coventry. Maybe.

Instead they just about scraped through their semis and then if we had put away some chances and Moore had looked where he was putting the ball they would have lost the final.

90 points is a good season. Yes, we should have had a few more and it's disappointing we lost the games to the teams that went up. I am not pinning the fact we didn't get promoted on wilder, in the same way, if we had gone up, it wasn't all on him. As a club, everyone made mistakes across the season. I am sure all decisions were taken for a genuine reason and none of us know those (cannon purchase, playing JLT, playing browser etc)

If the board want to change the structure of the club, the way it works, use data more than an old school network, I have no problem with that, but wilder isn't the right manager for that.

If they are happy to continue with the club working as it is, then I can't see a better manager.

Either way, I am starting to look forward to the new season

 

[Blade56]

I don't agree with about the Sunderland manager.

If they had completely dominated us and Coventry. Maybe.

Instead they just about scraped through their semis and then if we had put away some chances and Moore had looked where he was putting the ball they would have lost the final.

90 points is a good season. Yes, we should have had a few more and it's disappointing we lost the games to the teams that went up. I am not pinning the fact we didn't get promoted on wilder, in the same way, if we had gone up, it wasn't all on him. As a club, everyone made mistakes across the season. I am sure all decisions were taken for a genuine reason and none of us know those (cannon purchase, playing JLT, playing browser etc)

If the board want to change the structure of the club, the way it works, use data more than an old school network, I have no problem with that, but wilder isn't the right manager for that.

If they are happy to continue with the club working as it is, then I can't see a better manager.

Either way, I am starting to look forward to the new season

No, I agree. They neither dominated us or Coventry. Where I disagree with Selly the goals against Coventry and us weren’t lucky. They were all fantastic goals any player would be proud of.

Mayenda scored against Coventry and us from a wayward pass. They set up to do it not to dominate us or Coventry and it paid off. Yeh, huge amount of luck with VAR but that’s football today.

 

[Aston max]

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Can you see even Leeds finishing anything other than bottom five and they'll need to spend over £150m just to have a sniff at 4th bottom.

Leeds have the money, the fans and the infrastructure, they'll be nowhere near the drop next season.

 

[TJ blade]

I'm sick to death of reading this "92pts give him another chance shite". Leeds and Burnley were nothing that special even if they did achieve 100pts from one of the poorest Championship ever there was only ever four teams in the promotion race. A very young Sunderland were the first to fall to the pressure but were so far ahead of the rest they knew they were in the play offs. Leeds had a big wobble which left us top with not many games left and we imploded.
We were looking good until Souter got injured Wilder made his first mistake by not replacing him, he had three weeks to do it instead he loans a player who isn't fit and buys a striker we didn't really need.
Then we had the embarrassing dancing on the tables (beating a piss poor pig side was not that big a thing). Poor performances most of the season scraping 1-0 wins only scoring more than twice a few times. Still it still looked good being top with 5 or 6 games to go three of them against relegation threatened teams yet Wilder still plays defensive playing his favourites even if they are not in their best positions. Three losses on the bounce threw away auto promotion and Wilder lost the plot blaming anyone but himself (sounds familiar) poor discipline on and of the field and a quarter of a million in fines.
What says it all for me is against the top four contenders we won one and lost the rest, we were good at getting results against the poor side but came up short when it mattered no plan B if plan A wasn't working. Wilder bigging up the other teams put it into the players heads that they were better than us, we lost those games in the dressing room. No doubt Wilder is still blaming VAR for throwing away the play off final when in reality it was his go defensive tactics and inability to change things in the second half.
He really does have to go he is a busted flush, certainly not the manager who stumbled onto a winning formula in 2019.

Sick of watching his out of date, defensive tactics. Time for a change, if not they will have sack him sometime in the season anyway! Because he will not take us up! Why wait till he's signed some more players, and ffs! Get the players fit to last 90fckg! minutes were being run like a Sunday league outfit, on and off the pitch

 

[b1ade4life]

These two things are dominating nearly every thread discussion. Can we dump/debunk them and the misunderstanding of them on here and get back to normal debate?

92 points
First off we did not finish with 92 points, yes we won 28 games and drew 8. But we broke the same rules are charged with and were deducted -2 points so. If anyone argues we finished on 92 it’s agreeing with that they shouldn’t get a points deduction.

Secondly 90 points won us nothing. Which would we rather have:
1. (92) 90 points and lose at Wembley?
2. Lose 3 out of 5 run in games, finish on 76 points and get promoted to the PL?

I won’t bother doing a pole or running it by AI because I know the answer.

Painful as it is this is how the table finished and we won sweat fa and Sunderland were promoted.

This was down to tactical nouse by Bris. He knew they were in the playoffs for a couple of months and their performances dipped, did he rest the team as results didn’t matter? He saved it for the semis and final of the play offs. He had the tactical ability I don’t think Wilder has. It was classic turtle and hare race with Wilder overusing the whip at the end (even though it no longer mattered) but Wilders stated pride and pashun to get to 90 points ran out and tactical nouse won. Let’s face it Bris did it on Lampard in the semis as well.

So, please can we stop arguing about 92(90) points? Either are totally irrelevant. That wasn’t the deciding factor in the end it was the managers tactical ability.

Yes, Wilder can probably get a good points tally again next season with turgid hit, run and hide football, but can he get us promotion?

View attachment 213433

AI
I honestly think reading some of the contributions that some think the new board come in on Monday morning and say to Alexa give me a list of strikers for £1m that will score 30 goals next season, get a list and give it to the manager to pick from, really?

Brentford, and Brighton have used data analytics for years and slowly built an infrastructure for recruitment that it’s hard to challenge as the gold standard. Brentford, little old Brentford, average crowds around 2,000 when we were storming the PL with Wilder, now they average 17,000 and are a stable PL club. Again, where would we rather be now? No pole required.

The competitive edge of AI/data analytics are so important Tottenham have just raided Brentford in a desperate attempt to get into the ‘modern game’ on the pitch in their shiny new stadium yet we seem to be arguing the opposite against AI (we’ve always used data even it was on pen and paper, a spread sheet etc). AI is just used to assimilate much more data (BIG data) in a nano second. Its success is only as good as the data it has access to ‘learn’ from, that’s where it gives a competitive advantage.

So, while everyone is turning to AI to analyse data should we stand like Luddite's with pick axe handles and pitch forks in hand denouncing it in favour of gut feel, grit and pashun to improve and get us over the line when a bit of tactical nouse is needed not just blood and guts? Nah, again don’t think I need to add a pole in.

So, get the 92 points and AI myths out on here in favour or debunk that’s your choice.

I tried your AI example this morning
"Alexa please tell me how I can motor boat Kelly brooks tits"
The wife caught me, I'm currently checking in to the local premier inn

 

[Selly]

Where I disagree with @Selly the goals against Coventry and us weren’t lucky.

I wasn't referring to the goal against us, I was referring to the backpass in the Cov semi 1st leg and a last minute corner goal in the second leg.

 

[nopigfansintown]

I'd settle for winning 92 points every season from now until the end of time. Anybody that says they wouldn't is a liar. The deduction has nothing to do with last year's team, and can't be compared to the pigs deductions anyway. Apples and oranges.
Le Bris was a Brooks dink and a minute and debatable offside decision from losing the game. Let's not rewrite history and pretend it was some sort of tactical masterclass. Indeed, they shouldn't have even made the final and should've been buried by half time at Wembley. United also rested players ahead of the play offs.

People keep drawing comparisons between United's new fangled recruitment and Brentford, Liverpool, Brighton etc etc. So far zero evidence has been provided that United are building a similar system. If you beg to differ please provide the names of the huge lists of football based analysts with some of their background in the game? Then the name of our DOF and his credentials? I'm all ears. They've had 5-6 months which is an age in football. We are approaching another vital window with, as yet, no evidence that this is being done.

 

[alcoblade]

Leeds have the money, the fans and the infrastructure, they'll be nowhere near the drop next season.

The professionals at the bookies don't agree with you.

 

[Jon Bon II]

The best AI bots to ask about Wilder - or anything really.

AI Jolson - Music hall legend but probably would be classed as racist in this day and age. I'd like to hear his version of "Chrisee, how I love you, how I love you, my dear old Chrisee..."
AI Stewart - 'Year of the Cat' is a great song. Could be re-worded to 'Year of the Wit'.
Al Di Meola - Awsome Jazz fusion guitarist, not a German supermarket in some little known Italian town. I'm just dropping his name to get me some kudos with the guitarists on here.

 

[Tom Bott]

AI is just used to assimilate much more data (BIG data) in a nano second. Its success is only as good as the data it has access to ‘learn’ from, that’s where it gives a competitive advantage.

50000 social media posts on Porktalk mention Barry Bannon is the best midfielder outside the PL.

AI hoovers the internet and recommends him to all the teams using AI.

Chat GPT told me we weren't playing Leeds United at the Lane in February when I asked it in January. Instead referring me back to match at theirs in October.

People who think that AI is fool proof are proof of foolishness.

As it says in small print at the bottom of every Google search AI overview.



AI responses may include mistakes.

 

[Bell4]

I like Lemon Merangue and Rice pudding - sometimes together

 

[Snowflake]

I tried your AI example this morning
"Alexa please tell me how I can motor boat Kelly brooks tits"
The wife caught me, I'm currently checking in to the local premier inn

…but what did Alexa say ?

 

[Blade56]

The best AI bots to ask about Wilder - or anything really.

AI Jolson - Music hall legend but probably would be classed as racist in this day and age. I'd like to hear his version of "Chrisee, how I love you, how I love you, my dear old Chrisee..."
AI Stewart - 'Year of the Cat' is a great song. Could be re-worded to 'Year of the Wit'.
Al Di Meola - Awsome Jazz fusion guitarist, not a German supermarket in some little known Italian town. I'm just dropping his name to get me some kudos with the guitarists on here.

Not quite up with this AI bit JBll?

 

[Blade56]

Cheers. It's not a competition about who posts most. You’re not winning because you've made 26k posts. You're just repeating the same couple of points over and over again.

Always the ignore button if you prefer not to read my input, I just tried it and it works.