Heckingbottom is not and never was up to this job

[BobblesBlade]

Obviously two sets of fans on this forum. Those who would love to see the mighty Blades do well in the Prem and then those who are not really bothered about the football it’s just having a few beers with their mates.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

Jesus Horatio Christ…SBH,

You take a week off fishing, driving 200 miles to escape the obnoxious shit being slung about, you then weaken slightly to check the news, only to find more obnoxious ignorant shit in a new thread.

Listen to yourself

 

[kopstander79]

So don’t interact with people on a forum built for interaction?

It’s a bold strategy

Ye about the content, not the poster or If there’s been other threads on it I should have made that clear tbh

 

[Carlton Blade]

Ye about the content, not the poster or If there’s been other threads on it I should have made that clear tbh

Agree 10% that there’s no need for the name calling

 

[DSB-91]

Some people on here just don’t seem to live in the real world.

Hecky definitely has limitations as a manager, I think there’s very few blades who’d argue otherwise. If he gets sacked, I don’t think anyone will be taking to the streets to protest.

But we have a squad that has almost no Premier League experience and even less quality at this level. If you offered other fanbases any of our players, aside from maybe Archer and McAtee on the basis of potential, most would say no thanks to all of them.

Add to that the fact the injury list gets longer every week. We have no money and no depth. We sold two of our key players weeks before the season started. The players we’ve brought in are mostly complete unknowns which, Hamer aside, no other clubs really seem to have been interested in.

You can throw tantrums and call people snowflakes all you want. We’re shit for all the reasons above, not because the fanbase is soft or not ambitious enough or whatever other weird narrative you want to pick.

In my opinion we’re not underperforming, we’re performing exactly how you’d expect a team like this to. No amount of ambition or magical thinking is going to make Bernie Traore or Luke Thomas great Premier League players.

 

[Not so Slim ane]

I’m going to nail my colours to the mast and just say it…heckingbottom is the luckiest bloke alive. He was in the right place at the right time and fell onto the job of managing us because he was there and wouldn’t rock the boat.
He was barely competent in the championship but had 2 or 3 players, when he actually got round to playing them, who could turn a match round. He persisted with Norwood and fleck even when they were playing consistently badly until he had no choice but to play Macatee and Doyle and things suddenly got better and we started playing well and winning more, who could have known!! I would say, I know some people will disagree, it was in spite of Heckingbottom and not because of him.

The wholesale training slaughter of the players cannot be just luck, something is being done wrong and it’s followed him in clubs throughout his career. Even with this presumably high stress training the players are blowing out of their arses after 60 minutes! What on earth is happening in training? History shows us, he won’t change anything until we are down to having only the under 21’s left. He can’t change because he knows nothing else and is also seemingly the most stubborn man this side of the Pennines.

He is also tactically inept, playing the long ball to mcburnie is fair enough when he’s on the pitch but for fucks sake, don’t carry on with it when he’s sat on the fucking bench and a 5 foot 7 player has replaced him!

I don’t even think anything would be different if we hadn’t lost the 2 we lost, one was patchy to say the least and the other irreplaceable but he did get the targets he wanted who are turning out to be not performing well under him.

He is in no way up to managing in the premier league and it’s just gobsmacking that he still has support because he’s done nothing right since the season started, has no positive effect on results and seems unable to make a decision tactically until it’s too late. I mean fetching Osborne on against Man U… Slimane must be fucking paralysed from the knees down to not be getting a game. That was honestly the substitution that broke me and proved we need rid.
This is my opinion, yours may be different.

Don't think it's fair to judge him on this season and he worked miracles last season.

Genuine question,who out of the current premier league managers who would do better with this squad and the current injuries?

Pep etc would all be bottom on 1 point, the club has gone up with the expectation of getting relegated straight away.

 

[Compound_Legend]

To close this one off,it's a bloody good job the internet was'nt about when Bassett was manager and we'd not got a win after 16 matches in 1990.

There'd be people going atomic on here...

Don't try and control the uncontrollable. Just get on with it.

 

[brownblade]

I’m going to nail my colours to the mast and just say it…heckingbottom is the luckiest bloke alive. He was in the right place at the right time and fell onto the job of managing us because he was there and wouldn’t rock the boat.
He was barely competent in the championship but had 2 or 3 players, when he actually got round to playing them, who could turn a match round. He persisted with Norwood and fleck even when they were playing consistently badly until he had no choice but to play Macatee and Doyle and things suddenly got better and we started playing well and winning more, who could have known!! I would say, I know some people will disagree, it was in spite of Heckingbottom and not because of him.

The wholesale training slaughter of the players cannot be just luck, something is being done wrong and it’s followed him in clubs throughout his career. Even with this presumably high stress training the players are blowing out of their arses after 60 minutes! What on earth is happening in training? History shows us, he won’t change anything until we are down to having only the under 21’s left. He can’t change because he knows nothing else and is also seemingly the most stubborn man this side of the Pennines.

He is also tactically inept, playing the long ball to mcburnie is fair enough when he’s on the pitch but for fucks sake, don’t carry on with it when he’s sat on the fucking bench and a 5 foot 7 player has replaced him!

I don’t even think anything would be different if we hadn’t lost the 2 we lost, one was patchy to say the least and the other irreplaceable but he did get the targets he wanted who are turning out to be not performing well under him.

He is in no way up to managing in the premier league and it’s just gobsmacking that he still has support because he’s done nothing right since the season started, has no positive effect on results and seems unable to make a decision tactically until it’s too late. I mean fetching Osborne on against Man U… Slimane must be fucking paralysed from the knees down to not be getting a game. That was honestly the substitution that broke me and proved we need rid.
This is my opinion, yours may be different.

Stopped reading when your first paragraph was inaccurate and essentially just a wild opinion. It's all been discussed before, and starting a new thread doesn't mean you're right.

Just because we watch match of the day and CL highlights, doesn't mean our own club can play football to those standards. It's not that easy. The Premier League is the best of the best - but not for the smaller/poorer/newer sides, which is the rest against the best.

Hecky is a good guy, a knowledgeable, personable and well qualified football man. Our next manager could easily be inferior to him in every way.

 

[biggiesablade]

As soon as a thread goes sideways it's always somehow Lenny Henry's fault

 

[Sheffsteel]

There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Heckingbottom and I think they’ve all been pointed out a thousand times on here and we’re all familiar with the points.

However, with injuries taken into account, can anyone really argue there’s a starting 11 in the league with less quality than ours? That’s not a dig at the players, I genuinely believe they’re playing with full effort but the gap in talent is clear to see.

People will say well they played well under Wilder but multiple key parts of that team aren’t there anymore and the ones who are have aged and I’d argue, declined significantly.

Fair post.

1: Agree the injuries are a genuine excuse and this is exacerbated by the new 5 subs from 7 subs rule.
So now it's not about competing in the 1st 11 but the quality of the 7 subs on the bench can turn results in your favour.
Think we can put out a reasonable 11 but our bench is shockingly poor and that is mainly the Princes fault.

2: Thats the million dollar question. Does Wilder still have that magic touch?
Might sound controversial but I don't think any of the players promoted under Wilder were PL standard.
However that team was far greater than the sum of it's parts and incredibly didn't just stay up...it challenged for a PL spot.

I think people are searching for some kind of hope...we probably need a miracle to stay up with all these injuries
and we're all witnessed with our own eyes that Wilder can perform miracles.....he did the same at Northampton too.
However Wilders achievements were when he started somewhere with little pressure or expectation and was allowed to build from the beginning.
However one could argue that Wilder has unfinished business here and will come back so fired up and motivated to succeed.

I've heard people say....no manager could improve us...but that's just nonsense....otherwise why do so many clubs change manager.
Villa were near relegation with Gerrard, they bring in Emery and almost immediately look a different team.
Remember when Bassett was manager, it was a Warnock-eque high temp direct ball style, then Howard Kendall takes over and
all of a sudden all our players look comfortable/ composed on the ball and now make loads of short passes to feet keeping possession.

Obviously I'm have doubts that Wilder can save us, think we would put in Man Utd 1st half type performances more often though.
I was edging towards Hecky out but that Man Utd 1st half has give me hope, so I'd stick with Hecky for the time being and see
if we can use the Man Utd display as a springboard. For me it's so much about results, it's about performances, attitude and effort.

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

Stopped reading when your first paragraph was inaccurate and essentially just a wild opinion. It's all been discussed before, and starting a new thread doesn't mean you're right.

Just because we watch match of the day and CL highlights, doesn't mean our own club can play football to those standards. It's not that easy. The Premier League is the best of the best - but not for the smaller/poorer/newer sides, which is the rest against the best.

Hecky is a good guy, a knowledgeable, personable and well qualified football man. Our next manager could easily be inferior to him in every way.

You are entitled to your opinion as I said and I’m not denying he maybe a nice bloke but I’m struggling to understand how someone else could do worse, I’m sure people could say that is a wild opinion of yours. I’m very aware it’s not an easy job but we seem to have no fight and no idea what we are supposed to be doing on the pitch. Something is surely also seriously wrong with our training when we have 15? Players out with injuries and the rest don’t seem match fit enough.

 

[Pegster]

Don't know what people are moaning about , he'll soon have have his dream midfield duo back working in tandem .

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

Jesus Horatio Christ…SBH,

You take a week off fishing, driving 200 miles to escape the obnoxious shit being slung about, you then weaken slightly to check the news, only to find more obnoxious ignorant shit in a new thread.

Listen to yourself

Well made argument, you must be proud. Why am I wrong?

 

[Slim Man]

Trusty couldn't get in due to Robinson being our best defender (and still is) and playing in the Trusty position . If he had played Trusty then he would have had to drop our best defender or play Trusty in a position that he doesn't naturally play which means unsettling the rest of the back 5 . Its ...not....hard

Which he had to play in anyway at Fulham in the end and was great in

Centre backs can play centre back. Let's not make up daft excuses.

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

Guy starts a thread all the clique on here jump On board and start getting pissy, there’s no wonder this place has lost some good posters lately just scroll past he’s not wasting paper writing it down ffs

And most of them don’t have a reply to the thread subject they just go on about how many threads there are on Heckingbottom. You would think that would tell them something and that not everyone thinks the same way. Watch out if you don’t agree with the forum big boys.

 

[Slim Man]

He was the right man for the job at the right time, if what we wanted was promotion. He did that, had the cheat code of Ndiaye to do so but got the job done - you can't really knock him.

He now no longer is the right man for the job. He's shown his deficiencies and there's no doubt in my mind we would be mid-table in the Championship next season at best with Hecky at the helm. Without Ndiaye we were and are lost.

What I would've loved is for us either to stick with Slav or A.N. Other who would get us away from the 5-3-2 long term. We needed to change the whole culture of the club and that was always going to be a struggle. The right manager for me at least was someone who we would initially back, totally overhaul the squad and rebuild in a 4-3-3 possession based system. But we appointed what I still perceive to be a great manager and gave him none of the types of players he needs to succeed with his systems - MGW aside.

I'd love us to appoint the likes of McKenna or Potter and build a new culture at the club but we can't afford to or we just aren't attractive enough to do so. With the contracts running out it's the perfect opportunity to think long-term but nothing the club does is long-term anymore. I just don't know.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Stopped reading when your first paragraph was inaccurate and essentially just a wild opinion. It's all been discussed before, and starting a new thread doesn't mean you're right.

Just because we watch match of the day and CL highlights, doesn't mean our own club can play football to those standards. It's not that easy. The Premier League is the best of the best - but not for the smaller/poorer/newer sides, which is the rest against the best.

Hecky is a good guy, a knowledgeable, personable and well qualified football man. Our next manager could easily be inferior to him in every way.

You should never stop reading based on a 1st paragraph as the rest might have elements of interest/ truth.
Nothing is black and white and there are nuances. Someone can have valid points in some areas and talk shit in other areas.

All discussion should be respectful and considerate. The way the OP has written his post is disrespectful to Hecky because he's failed to mention the good stuff but of course there's an element of truth in Hecky being in the right place at the right time. He was the cheap option, promoted from within due his good work in the Academy, based on his CV he wouldn't normally had got anywhere near the job.

Of course we can't play to PL standards but surely we should be able to pass the ball 3 yards on a regular basis.
There were many times last season in the last 20 minutes for some reason our players would always lose composure and just boot it clear.
It's the same this season, so we constantly lose possession meaning the defence are always under pressure.

Very much agree Hecky is a good guy and deserves more respect than how the opening post was written but what has being nice got to do with it?
Think Hecky is average but very good off the field (calming influence). I don't mean average as an insult because when you have a poor manager then average is very much an upgrade and I totally understand the "be careful what you wish for brigade".

I think of Hecky for United in a similar vein to Southgate for England.
Both have done a good job, some say great job but there's this nagging fielding inside that both Sheff Utd and England could have a more positive outlook and could do better. Both often see slow regards subs as though they are all decided pre match, when surely you would expect subs to be made dependant on what happens on the pitch. Both have blank/ calm/ non controversial personalities during interviews, which unfortunately this day and age is a big positive. I've heard it said Southgate will be more appreciated once he leaves the job and the same could easily apply to Hecky.

 

[TJ blade]

I’m going to nail my colours to the mast and just say it…heckingbottom is the luckiest bloke alive. He was in the right place at the right time and fell onto the job of managing us because he was there and wouldn’t rock the boat.
He was barely competent in the championship but had 2 or 3 players, when he actually got round to playing them, who could turn a match round. He persisted with Norwood and fleck even when they were playing consistently badly until he had no choice but to play Macatee and Doyle and things suddenly got better and we started playing well and winning more, who could have known!! I would say, I know some people will disagree, it was in spite of Heckingbottom and not because of him.

The wholesale training slaughter of the players cannot be just luck, something is being done wrong and it’s followed him in clubs throughout his career. Even with this presumably high stress training the players are blowing out of their arses after 60 minutes! What on earth is happening in training? History shows us, he won’t change anything until we are down to having only the under 21’s left. He can’t change because he knows nothing else and is also seemingly the most stubborn man this side of the Pennines.

He is also tactically inept, playing the long ball to mcburnie is fair enough when he’s on the pitch but for fucks sake, don’t carry on with it when he’s sat on the fucking bench and a 5 foot 7 player has replaced him!

I don’t even think anything would be different if we hadn’t lost the 2 we lost, one was patchy to say the least and the other irreplaceable but he did get the targets he wanted who are turning out to be not performing well under him.

He is in no way up to managing in the premier league and it’s just gobsmacking that he still has support because he’s done nothing right since the season started, has no positive effect on results and seems unable to make a decision tactically until it’s too late. I mean fetching Osborne on against Man U… Slimane must be fucking paralysed from the knees down to not be getting a game. That was honestly the substitution that broke me and proved we need rid.
This is my opinion, yours may be different.

I think you've just about summed it up mate. Couldn't agree more

 

[Carlton Blade]

And most of them don’t have a reply to the thread subject they just go on about how many threads there are on Heckingbottom. You would think that would tell them something and that not everyone thinks the same way. Watch out if you don’t agree with the forum big boys.

He hasn't been up to an extremely difficult job this season, no argument there.

Your opinion in the job he did last season is ridiculous.

 

[Isar]

Who comes in then???

Batman.

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

Of course he was the right man for the job.

Why?

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

Don't think it's fair to judge him on this season and he worked miracles last season.

Genuine question,who out of the current premier league managers who would do better with this squad and the current injuries?

Pep etc would all be bottom on 1 point, the club has gone up with the expectation of getting relegated straight away.

I would say at least 10 of them would do a better job. The training is particularly an area that needs Looking at and changing due to the amount of injuries. I also can’t think of one match he’s made a difference in with subs or a change in tactics.

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

He hasn't been up to an extremely difficult job this season, no argument there.

Your opinion in the job he did last season is ridiculous.

I just don’t see him as someone who can move the club forward, there may not be anyone who can that we can get but I think we should try and improve. I can’t see heckingbottom being able to do that. Whatever he’s doing it’s not working.

 

[TJ blade]

To close this one off,it's a bloody good job the internet was'nt about when Bassett was manager and we'd not got a win after 16 matches in 1990.

There'd be people going atomic on here...

Don't try and control the uncontrollable. Just get on with it.

Maybe so, but the difference with Bassett was we all got the feeling with the way we were playing it was going to change, with this lot it's like watching somebody drowning in quicksand sadly.

 

[SuperBobbyHatton]

Maybe so, but the difference with Bassett was we all got the feeling with the way we were playing it was going to change, with this lot it's like watching somebody drowning in quicksand sadly.

Exactly this, I just can’t see him improving our results at all.

 

[bladesadviser]

I was thinking of a dream team of Wilder with Knill as assistant, Billy as head (player) coach all overseen by Warnock as Technical director and Harry Bassett our Director of football. That should do it

Is there a role for Danny Wilson or Nigel Clough?

 

[Carlton Blade]

I just don’t see him as someone who can move the club forward, there may not be anyone who can that we can get but I think we should try and improve. I can’t see heckingbottom being able to do that. Whatever he’s doing it’s not working.

But that has nothing to do saying "promotion was in spite of him". That's my issue. He's been poor this year, no argument. The stuff about last year?

 

[Sheffsteel]

He was the right man for the job at the right time, if what we wanted was promotion. He did that, had the cheat code of Ndiaye to do so but got the job done - you can't really knock him.

He now no longer is the right man for the job. He's shown his deficiencies and there's no doubt in my mind we would be mid-table in the Championship next season at best with Hecky at the helm. Without Ndiaye we were and are lost.

What I would've loved is for us either to stick with Slav or A.N. Other who would get us away from the 5-3-2 long term. We needed to change the whole culture of the club and that was always going to be a struggle. The right manager for me at least was someone who we would initially back, totally overhaul the squad and rebuild in a 4-3-3 possession based system. But we appointed what I still perceive to be a great manager and gave him none of the types of players he needs to succeed with his systems - MGW aside.

I'd love us to appoint the likes of McKenna or Potter and build a new culture at the club but we can't afford to or we just aren't attractive enough to do so. With the contracts running out it's the perfect opportunity to think long-term but nothing the club does is long-term anymore. I just don't know.

You hear it so often that there's this massive gap in standard between the PL and the Championship.
However I think it's more about style of play. Watching PL football is almost like watching a different sport.

PL teams focus massively on keeping possession and every player has decent composure and good control on the ball.
The players all seem massive and muscle bound but there's less physicality, you only need to gently touch a player and they fall down on the floor.
Players are much more deadly in front of goal and able to create chances from nothing.

My view is that Slavs football philosophy is built around Premier league style football.
He had us playing short passing, keep possession football. We looked good but we over passed giving opposition defences time to re-organise.
Also he often has the defence pushed up to the half way line, so most of the play was in the opponents half.
The problem was our defence (mainly Egan and Robinson) were slow, so when we pushed up we were vulnerable to the long ball counter attack.

When Hecky replaced Slav, Hecky took a pragmatic approach and had us playing Championship style football.
He stopped the "keep possession" style as it's not as important in the 2nd tier. We mixed the style of play up and at times
weren't embarrassed to use long ball. Norwood was the main man, he would be encouraged to make the Hollywood pass.
80%- 90% of the time the ball went straight back to the opposition but occasionally it was a fantastic pass and we'd score.
Giving up possession was never a sin in the Championship because it wouldn't be long before you got the ball back.

Also Hecky realised that the quality was much lower in the Championship with hardly anyone able to score from well outside the box.
So again his "win at any cost" approach was, when we were leading then pull most of the team back into defence, then the defence couldn't be caught out for pace. I remember the Bristol City and Swansea away games where we defended for such long spells.
Normally to deliberately chose to defend is a receipt for disaster but like Athletic Madrid we often seemed surprisingly comfortable
Most matches last season our defence was under long spells of pressure but our goalie often had little to do.

Think Hecky has brought this Athletic Madrid defensive approach to the PL.
It's as though training is based on what we do without the ball, instead of what we do with the ball, in fairness results have been respectable but
when we have long spells without the ball in the PL then heads drop as it becomes like damage limitation, an attack versus defence routine.
At least in the 1st half against Man Utd we were on the front foot and took the battle to the opposition, reasons for optimism.

Really think our issue (like away to Spurs) is we need to give the defence a rest from constant defending.
The way you do this is to have a spell of keeping possession to take the heat out of a game.
The Wilder team had been coached for years to play little triangles even when under pressure and I think when you play against teams with better players, the ability to prevent these dangerous players to seeing much of the ball is really important in the PL.

 

[Slim Man]

You hear it so often that there's this massive gap in standard between the PL and the Championship.
However I think it's more about style of play. Watching PL football is almost like watching a different sport.

PL teams focus massively on keeping possession and every player has decent composure and good control on the ball.
The players all seem massive and muscle bound but there's less physicality, you only need to gently touch a player and they fall down on the floor.
Players are much more deadly in front of goal and able to create chances from nothing.

My view is that Slavs football philosophy is built around Premier league style football.
He had us playing short passing, keep possession football. We looked good but we over passed giving opposition defences time to re-organise.
Also he often has the defence pushed up to the half way line, so most of the play was in the opponents half.
The problem was our defence (mainly Egan and Robinson) were slow, so when we pushed up we were vulnerable to the long ball counter attack.

When Hecky replaced Slav, Hecky took a pragmatic approach and had us playing Championship style football.
He stopped the "keep possession" style as it's not as important in the 2nd tier. We mixed the style of play up and at times
weren't embarrassed to use long ball. Norwood was the main man, he would be encouraged to make the Hollywood pass.
80%- 90% of the time the ball went straight back to the opposition but occasionally it was a fantastic pass and we'd score.
Giving up possession was never a sin in the Championship because it wouldn't be long before you got the ball back.

Also Hecky realised that the quality was much lower in the Championship with hardly anyone able to score from well outside the box.
So again his "win at any cost" approach was, when we were leading then pull most of the team back into defence, then the defence couldn't be caught out for pace. I remember the Bristol City and Swansea away games where we defended for such long spells.
Normally to deliberately chose to defend is a receipt for disaster but like Athletic Madrid we often seemed surprisingly comfortable
Most matches last season our defence was under long spells of pressure but our goalie often had little to do.

Think Hecky has brought this Athletic Madrid defensive approach to the PL.
It's as though training is based on what we do without the ball, instead of what we do with the ball, in fairness results have been respectable but
when we have long spells without the ball in the PL then heads drop as it becomes like damage limitation, an attack versus defence routine.
At least in the 1st half against Man Utd we were on the front foot and took the battle to the opposition, reasons for optimism.

Really think our issue (like away to Spurs) is we need to give the defence a rest from constant defending.
The way you do this is to have a spell of keeping possession to take the heat out of a game.
The Wilder team had been coached for years to play little triangles even when under pressure and I think when you play against teams with better players, the ability to prevent these dangerous players to seeing much of the ball is really important in the PL.

Great points, totally agree.

The whole culture of the club needs to change, and that's including from the stands, if we want to thrive in the Prem. Even on a more limited budget.

Burnley are without doubt the best equipped to stay up despite their rocky start. They've signed a lot of players when in reality they'd have been better turning their loans into permanents and going from there, the side is basically unrecognizable from the team last year - however last season they changed cultures VERY quickly and pissed the league. It can be done.

It doesn't mean turning into a Swansea or a QPR, as Burnley proved.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Maybe so, but the difference with Bassett was we all got the feeling with the way we were playing it was going to change, with this lot it's like watching somebody drowning in quicksand sadly.

Agree....sometimes think some of the posters on here can't be doing to matches and maybe just watch highlights.

The Bassett team was competitive every match, opposition teams hated playing us because it was a tough battle.
I went to every match that season and even though we were bottom of the league still felt we could stay up.

However this season it really feels like we shouldn't even be on the same pitch
and the ambition is let's keep it respectable and not lose by too much.
I've supported us 50 years and never known anything like it.
I sit with a few season ticket holders on the Kop and we've all accepted we're down, just relax and pre game accept we've lost.

Seems the manager and players have packed in but also the fans have given up, there's no anger or pride.
Also there's a weird fashion where people become emotional attached to a social media viewpoint.
Hardly anyone is balanced, everything becomes exaggerated and massively polarised.

The Prince must be loving it because normally he'd be under pressure to splash the cash and act but it's a though a "Hecky cult" is starting. I've seen comments where Blades say, we could lose all our remaining matches and we must still keep Hecky, he's the best we can expect. We don't belong in the PL and need to return to our rightful place in the Championship where it's much better football etc.

Here's me thinking...surely Hecky's position is constantly evolving, obviously based on results but the indicator toward future results are performances. To date (apart from Man Utd 1st half) our performances have been worse than anyone expected with little signs for optimism.

Many say we were competive and unlucky against Man City and Spurs but the facts show a different story.
Both these clubs had 70 to 80% possession, 30 shots at our goal, missed penalties, goals disallowed, missed loads of chances.
We were outclassed by both Man City and Spurs and on another day lose 4-0.
Of course even the best teams can be outclassed by MC and TH, my point was against those who say we could have beat them.