RAPFA pre season meeting invitation - Saturday 9th of July

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I'll be there and looking forward to it alteady but I happen to hold the view that the best footballing team I remember was so much improved and more effecrtive when we signed a tough no-nonsense, ball winning midfielder...................... Trevor Hockey. There's nowt wrong with Monty - its the rest of the team we need.

Will you ignore me and talk about education in Croydon?
 

I'll be there and looking forward to it alteady but I happen to hold the view that the best footballing team I remember was so much improved and more effecrtive when we signed a tough no-nonsense, ball winning midfielder...................... Trevor Hockey. There's nowt wrong with Monty - its the rest of the team we need.

Will you ignore me and talk about education in Croydon?

You are partly right mucker. Tough ball winning midfielders are welcome providing they can pass. That rules Monty out. Deschamps, Vierra, Petit, Hockey, Keane and Mascherano are some of my favourite ball winning midfielders. But they can/could all pass to a player on their team!?

I would normally object to the off post debate .... but saying that it is always nice t see Walthy getting tied up in knots!? :D
 
But Hockey won the ball! He did a bit more than temporarily depriving the opposition - typically at the expense of a free-kick, corner, or all too often, a penalty kick.

Some meals only taste right with a vegetable, but it needn't be a turnip!
 
That rules Monty out. Deschamps, Vierra, Petit, Hockey, Keane and Mascherano are some of my favourite ball winning midfielders.

And which of those will we see at Third Division Sheffield United next season?
 
Posted by Darren above

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------



Yes, if "One kid is one kid too many" and we have hundreds bunking off in one area.

And how will a voluntary education system improve that?
 
As only one of them is a remote possibility [Hockey, in particular, has an insurmountable fitness problem] let us pray the answer is none of them!
 
And how will a voluntary education system improve that?

Have I said it would? The argument was that we needed compulsory education to stop even one child not going to school. We have hundreds in one area not going to school. Compulsory education, in your terms, has failed to achieve its objective.
 
Have I said it would? The argument was that we needed compulsory education to stop even one child not going to school. We have hundreds in one area not going to school. Compulsory education, in your terms, has failed to achieve its objective.

Yes, but the argument is whether or not an optional system would see less children not going to school. Are you seriously arguing it would?
 
Yes, but the argument is whether or not an optional system would see less children not going to school. Are you seriously arguing it would?

I doubt there would be much in it given the evidence of the many years of mass education before the government made it compulsory and the evidence you provided of rather widespread non attendance under our compulsory system. I think what certain people might benefit from is moving away from the idea that there is no problem which cant be solved by a bit of legislation.

Either way, its not something I think this or any government ought to spend its time on. There are bigger fish to fry.
 
I'd be interested to know the figures for education before and after they made it compulsory. There must have been a reason to make it compulsory after all......
 
I'd be interested to know the figures for education before and after they made it compulsory. There must have been a reason to make it compulsory after all......

Interesting area. There wasnt much of a reason to do it, it was simply a bunch of do gooders deciding to pass a law which would require people do what they were already doing. Theres a very interesting short book about it available for free here...

http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/government-failure-e-g-west-on-education
 
Interesting area. There wasnt much of a reason to do it, it was simply a bunch of do gooders deciding to pass a law which would require people do what they were already doing. Theres a very interesting short book about it available for free here...

http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/government-failure-e-g-west-on-education

Ah the IEA, I might as well quote something from "Socialist Worker" in favour of my argument.

Your argument gobsmacks me. Do you really think every government in the world has introduced systems of compulsory education because a bunch of do-gooders told them to?

Apparently something from one third to one half of the "labouring classes" attended school in the early years of Victoria's reign.

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/education/rosen.html
 
Ah the IEA, I might as well quote something from "Socialist Worker" in favour of my argument.

Well, I guess that saves you having to read something which might challenge your opinions then.

Im not actually making an argument at all. I have simply pointed out the fact that compulsory schooling has failed to make schooling universal. You are making a pretty valiant effort to get wound up.
 
Well, I guess that saves you having to read something which might challenge your opinions then.

Come, on they are the right wing equivalent of the SWP - just as, as we said earlier, Trotsykism has never been tried anyway becaise of his impractical utopianism, there might also be a reason why every country in the world has a compulsory system of education and no country has ever thought it a good idea to introduce an optional system.
 
Come, on they are the right wing equivalent of the SWP

Have you looked at the publication? It makes the point that, prior to schooling being made compulsory both literacy rates and attendance rates were over 90%. So compulsory schooling was passed to get the 10%. So what percentage are we at now? I have a figure of 69,000 kids bunking off everyday under the compulsory system.
 

Have you looked at the publication? It makes the point that, prior to schooling being made compulsory both literacy rates and attendance rates were over 90%. So compulsory schooling was passed to get the 10%. So what percentage are we at now? I have a figure of 69,000 kids bunking off everyday under the compulsory system.

Which page does it make that point? Briefly read a couple of chapters but didn't spot that.
 
Page 20, fifth line down.

I see that is the IEA quoting another IEA pamphlet (by a chap called West) from 1965. And he he doesn't even accept West's argument. He says "if West was right..."

I rather suspect if those stats had any validity the 2003 pamphlet would be a bit more roubust in adopting them and would also give us stats from some more neutral sources.

Do you have any more unbiased sources?
 
Thanks. That's one persons view however, and i haven't got the time to read the paper it references. I'm sure there are other opinions that differ:)
 
I see that is the IEA quoting another IEA pamphlet (by a chap called West) from 1965. And he he doesn't even accept West's argument. He says "if West was right..."

I rather suspect if those stats had any validity the 2003 pamphlet would be a bit more roubust in adopting them and would also give us stats from some more neutral sources.

Do you have any more unbiased sources?

They are quoting a book called 'Education and the State' by EG West. The figures have not, as far as I am aware, been queried even by the people who viciously attacked West on its release (for which they were forced to apologise).

I shall quote a little more fully from West

"The pre-1870 record of educational outputs such as literacy was even more impressive than the numbers of children in school, and this presents an even more serious problem to typical authors of social histories. Professor Mark Blaug (1975: 595) has observed
that ‘Conventional histories of education neatly dispose of the
problem by simply ignoring the literacy evidence.’

R. K. Webb, a specialist historian of literacy, offers the following
conclusions about conditions in Britain in the late 1830s: ‘in so far as one dare generalize about a national average in an extraordinarily varied situation, the fi gure would seem to run between two-thirds and three-quarters of the working classes as literate, a group which included most of the respectable poor who were the great political potential in English life’.2

There was, moreover, an appreciable rate of growth in literacy.
This is reflected in the fact that young persons were more and more accomplished than their elders. Thus a return of the educational requirements of men in the navy and marines in 1865 showed that 99 per cent of the boys could read compared with seamen (89 per cent), marines (80 per cent) and petty offi cers (94 per cent).3

It is not surprising that with such evidence of literacy growth
among young people, the levels had become even more substantial
by 1870. On my calculations (West, 1978), in 1880, when national
compulsion was enacted, over 95 per cent of fi fteen-year-olds were literate. This should be compared to the fact that over a century later 40 per cent of 21-year-olds in the UK admit to diffi culties with writing and spelling (Central Statistical Office, 1995: 58)."
 
Thanks. That's one persons view however, and i haven't got the time to read the paper it references. I'm sure there are other opinions that differ:)

You can get most of it from chapter 2. It is, indeed, one persons view. If there are opinions that differ I look forward to you pointing me towards them. I am always willing to read something which challenges my assumptions. Id find it dreadfully dull otherwise.
 
They are quoting a book called 'Education and the State' by EG West. The figures have not, as far as I am aware, been queried even by the people who viciously attacked West on its release (for which they were forced to apologise).

I shall quote a little more fully from West

"The pre-1870 record of educational outputs such as literacy was
even more impressive than the numbers of children in school, and
this presents an even more serious problem to typical authors of
social histories. Professor Mark Blaug (1975: 595) has observed
that ‘Conventional histories of education neatly dispose of the
problem by simply ignoring the literacy evidence.’

R. K. Webb, a specialist historian of literacy, offers the following
conclusions about conditions in Britain in the late 1830s: ‘in so far as
one dare generalize about a national average in an extraordinarily
varied situation, the fi gure would seem to run between two-thirds
and three-quarters of the working classes as literate, a group which
included most of the respectable poor who were the great political
potential in English life’.2

There was, moreover, an appreciable rate of growth in literacy.
This is refl ected in the fact that young persons were more and more
accomplished than their elders. Thus a return of the educational
requirements of men in the navy and marines in 1865 showed that 99
per cent of the boys could read compared with seamen (89 per cent),
marines (80 per cent) and petty offi cers (94 per cent).3

It is not surprising that with such evidence of literacy growth
among young people, the levels had become even more substantial
by 1870. On my calculations (West, 1978), in 1880, when national
compulsion was enacted, over 95 per cent of fi fteen-year-olds were
literate. This should be compared to the fact that over a century later
40 per cent of 21-year-olds in the UK admit to diffi culties with writing
and spelling (Central Statistical Offi ce, 1995: 58)."

I have even less respect for him now. This passage is so disingenous as to be laughable

"On my calculations (West, 1978), in 1880, when national
compulsion was enacted, over 95 per cent of fi fteen-year-olds were
literate. This should be compared to the fact that over a century later
40 per cent of 21-year-olds in the UK admit to diffi culties with writing
and spelling (Central Statistical Offi ce, 1995: 58)."

Literacy, of course, is not the same thing as having "difficulties with reading and spelling" and West would have know that.
 
They are quoting a book called 'Education and the State' by EG West. The figures have not, as far as I am aware, been queried even by the people who viciously attacked West on its release (for which they were forced to apologise).


It is not surprising that with such evidence of literacy growth
among young people, the levels had become even more substantial
by 1870. On my calculations (West, 1978), in 1880, when national
compulsion was enacted, over 95 per cent of fi fteen-year-olds were literate. This should be compared to the fact that over a century later 40 per cent of 21-year-olds in the UK admit to diffi culties with writing and spelling (Central Statistical Office, 1995: 58)."[/I]

If the rest of EG West's work contains apple & Orange comparisons like that i'm not sure i'll spend the effort hunting it down.
 
According to this graph, literacy rates were around 80% when education was made compulsory in 1880

http://www.bl.uk/collections/early/victorian/pr_intro.html

Interesting. That tallies with the 1 in 5 'functionally illiterate' Brits uncovered by official research a couple of years ago...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-134165/One-adult-illiterate.html

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

If the rest of EG West's work contains apple & Orange comparisons like that i'm not sure i'll spend the effort hunting it down.

You dont have to, Ive provided a link to a free download. Which comparisons are apples and oranges then?
 
You can get most of it from chapter 2. It is, indeed, one persons view. If there are opinions that differ I look forward to you pointing me towards them. I am always willing to read something which challenges my assumptions. Id find it dreadfully dull otherwise.

Not your man for that, but i could happily lend you my copy of 'C sharp in depth' by Jon Skeet after i'm done with it.
 
But Hockey won the ball! He did a bit more than temporarily depriving the opposition - typically at the expense of a free-kick, corner, or all too often, a penalty kick.

Some meals only taste right with a vegetable, but it needn't be a turnip!

Indeed Pinchy. There is nowt wrong wiyh Monty's shadow chasing. In fact he is one of the best I have seen. The only thing that came close was watching Carrick against Barcelona in the CL final. Still, that ticky tacky pass and move nonesense did not get anyone anywhere did it?! The maestro is a championship shadow chaser who interupts his prize winning act with the odd foul in a dangerous area or penalty. "Ball or man", "up and at em" ...... "Have it!"

And which of those will we see at Third Division Sheffield United next season?

Well I have written to them all so you never know. But you appear to have missed the point. These are purely illustrative examples that everyone will know. My point being that we can have midfilders who win the ball and pass it (contrary to belief amongst SUFC fans after watching sir Nick for so many years).
 
Interesting. That tallies with the 1 in 5 'functionally illiterate' Brits uncovered by official research a couple of years ago...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-134165/One-adult-illiterate.html

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------



You dont have to, Ive provided a link to a free download. Which comparisons are apples and oranges then?

What I have pointed out. The fact that he compares literacy with "difficulties reading and spelling". Seriously if my daughter made such a basic error in reasoning in her undergraduate studies she get an E-
 

Indeed Pinchy. There is nowt wrong wiyh Monty's shadow chasing. In fact he is one of the best I have seen. The only thing that came close was watching Carrick against Barcelona in the CL final. Still, that ticky tacky pass and move nonesense did not get anyone anywhere did it?!

Well, if they'd had Fletcher in there instead i doubt they would have had as much room to manoeuvre
 

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