Why aren’t we rich?

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Not to mention that the Prince used the the prem money to buy back the ground etc so they are now owned by the club again and not leased. This makes us a more attractive proposition when potential buyers come in for us. The price didnt have the money himself to do it, so spent the prem money on fully completed the ownership of sufc i think.
 
Relegation can come quickly to any club that gets back to the 'promised land' that is the Premier League (let's see how Forest get on this season...). So the fact that we manged 2 seasons in there and ensured that we got a 3rd years parachute payment could be see as a bonus. However, three things that really got my goat in the time that we were up there.

1) not sorting out the infrastructure / academy once and for all. As soon as we were safe from the 1st season back, we should have ensures that we had something tangible to show for us getting back. That should have been first class facilities at our training ground to cater for the players, help reduce rehabilitation time for injured players, and to help attract new players coming onto the scene. We should have realised fairly early if the Norton site wasn't going to happen and if not, identified somewhere out of town (example the site that was available at the time between Woodhouse Mill and Swallownest) and got on with things. We did nothing and are now trying to sort it out piecemeal.

2) we signed players who were expensive for what they were (not going into examples but we can all have a pretty good idea). What we should have been doing is possibly not spending the as much but maybe buying more of the up and coming younger promising players from the leagues below PL. The likes of Ballard at Arsenal etc and tried to ensure that if things went tits up we had a very good set of younger top end championship level players ready to go again.

3) we paid a fortune in wages to some right wage thiefs who were brought in as a vanity project by CW. Rodwell, Morrison, etc. How much money did we spunk away on these players and how much would it be handy now to have the money spent on these players available now...?

We spent what we had on expensive players and buying back BL and the property assets (which also makes it easier to sell us as a package) and on wages to the squad (some on some right shit). That's where its all gone and why we are overstretched and scrabbling around for the bargains we can now find in the vain hope that no one else nips in for them.

As soon as we got back to the PL, collectively the football manager and the board royally cocked it up. Not having a top top training ground as a legacy of our visit being the biggest fuck up.
 
Weasel said:
Relegation can come quickly to any club that gets back to the 'promised land' that is the Premier League (let's see how Forest get on this season...). So the fact that we manged 2 seasons in there and ensured that we got a 3rd years parachute payment could be see as a bonus. However, three things that really got my goat in the time that we were up there.

1) not sorting out the infrastructure / academy once and for all. As soon as we were safe from the 1st season back, we should have ensures that we had something tangible to show for us getting back. That should have been first class facilities at our training ground to cater for the players, help reduce rehabilitation time for injured players, and to help attract new players coming onto the scene. We should have realised fairly early if the Norton site wasn't going to happen and if not, identified somewhere out of town (example the site that was available at the time between Woodhouse Mill and Swallownest) and got on with things. We did nothing and are now trying to sort it out piecemeal.

2) we signed players who were expensive for what they were (not going into examples but we can all have a pretty good idea). What we should have been doing is possibly not spending the as much but maybe buying more of the up and coming younger promising players from the leagues below PL. The likes of Ballard at Arsenal etc and tried to ensure that if things went tits up we had a very good set of younger top end championship level players ready to go again.

3) we paid a fortune in wages to some right wage thiefs who were brought in as a vanity project by CW. Rodwell, Morrison, etc. How much money did we spunk away on these players and how much would it be handy now to have the money spent on these players available now...?

We spent what we had on expensive players and buying back BL and the property assets (which also makes it easier to sell us as a package) and on wages to the squad (some on some right shit). That's where its all gone and why we are overstretched and scrabbling around for the bargains we can now find in the vain hope that no one else nips in for them.

As soon as we got back to the PL, collectively the football manager and the board royally cocked it up. Not having a top top training ground as a legacy of our visit being the biggest fuck up.
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You’ve explained where the money went. The ground etc was contractual due to the court case. Money on players was badly spent but had we spent fortunes on the training ground AND come down after the first season back we’d be in a far worse position now. As it was there was the Covid hit.

Hindsight can fit many scenarios but the fact is we didn’t have the money to see all three through in just two seasons.
 
I'm on record saying this owner has shown worrying levels of naievity in his ongoing refusal to appoint an experienced football executive and the UW stuff (City and Chelsea use theirs to generate funds, not players for the 1st team). But he's not stealing money and I do admire the way he went in 100% under Wilder.
 
dellasthunderbolt said:
Let me first preface this by clarifying that I am genuinely asking the questions in this post. It is not a dig at the board or at Wilder for his signings or whatever. I am also a simpleton when it comes to finances So all queries are genuine.

It is just something that I have always nodded along with and pretended to understand but must now admit to not understanding at all: I why are we not rich after two seasons in the Prem? In my mind we are told about the top league being a money pit (ie the play off final being the £100 million pound game) but we seem absolutely fucked financially post-prem. so I thought is this the same for all teams and it doesn’t seem to be - West Brom seem quite capable of spending money whereas we appear broke. Even last time we got relegated was followed by a couple of years of (largely badly spent) wealth- Hendrie, Sharp, Henderson, Cotterill, Speed etc brought in) but this is clealry not the case this time. I’m fact, our finances seem to be somehow worse after the Premier league than before. We spent around £2 million on Norwood and £4 million on Egan before and seemed to be able to be competitive. I just don’t understand - and there is a good chance I’m just being a fuckwit but my confusion is genuine. Is it the signings in the prem that fucked us over financially (again, not a sly dig at Wilder)? That’s all I can fathom. Please help the financially incapable cos I don’t comprehend!
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Wilder
 
metalblade said:
Quite simple really we invested very little in the club apart from tarting up the south stand. All the money was invested in players to keep us in the Prem, those investments in players largely haven't worked. Wilder did what he said he wouldn't do and put the club at risk. Blame the Prince if you want for letting CW have a free reign but what we really need on the clubs board is a football man who understands finance too, something I don't think we have had since Derek Dooley passed. Two seasons of Prem money plus parachute payments and we have very little to show for it the core of the squad is what got us into the Prem but now sadly four years older and ageing fast.
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Agree with all of that,can't really see us being favourites for promotion as some believe mainly because of the last thing you mention:four years older and ageing fast.
 
JJBlade said:
Wealthier clubs get their first choice of players, players that have true potential and belong in the division the buying club is playing in, they then pay them the salary required.

They then sell them for a profit.

We get those players that are left behind when all other clubs have done their business.

This puts us in the driving seat regarding minimal wages to pick up players that more often than not belong in the division below

The hope then is that the motivatational type manager can work miracles and get the ramshackle bunch playing above their potential.

It works, very occasionally for a limited period of time.

But more often than not it doesn't and we are left with players we can't give away let alone sell.

Any player that does show some potential can't get away quickly enough, meaning we have to practically give them away.

The whole thing is bland, boring and unimaginative and not really interesting to major sponsorship potential.

And that is why we never have any money, no matter what the scenario, we are always behind most of the other teams in whichever division we are playing in.
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Nail head
 
JJBlade said:
Wealthier clubs get their first choice of players, players that have true potential and belong in the division the buying club is playing in, they then pay them the salary required.

They then sell them for a profit.

We get those players that are left behind when all other clubs have done their business.

This puts us in the driving seat regarding minimal wages to pick up players that more often than not belong in the division below

The hope then is that the motivatational type manager can work miracles and get the ramshackle bunch playing above their potential.

It works, very occasionally for a limited period of time.

But more often than not it doesn't and we are left with players we can't give away let alone sell.

Any player that does show some potential can't get away quickly enough, meaning we have to practically give them away.

The whole thing is bland, boring and unimaginative and not really interesting to major sponsorship potential.

And that is why we never have any money, no matter what the scenario, we are always behind most of the other teams in whichever division we are playing in.
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If that was the case we would have spent a lot more time in L1. As it stands our average finishing position is somewhere in the top 10 of the Championship.

So not "more often than not" really
 
dellasthunderbolt said:
Let me first preface this by clarifying that I am genuinely asking the questions in this post. It is not a dig at the board or at Wilder for his signings or whatever. I am also a simpleton when it comes to finances So all queries are genuine.

It is just something that I have always nodded along with and pretended to understand but must now admit to not understanding at all: I why are we not rich after two seasons in the Prem? In my mind we are told about the top league being a money pit (ie the play off final being the £100 million pound game) but we seem absolutely fucked financially post-prem. so I thought is this the same for all teams and it doesn’t seem to be - West Brom seem quite capable of spending money whereas we appear broke. Even last time we got relegated was followed by a couple of years of (largely badly spent) wealth- Hendrie, Sharp, Henderson, Cotterill, Speed etc brought in) but this is clealry not the case this time. I’m fact, our finances seem to be somehow worse after the Premier league than before. We spent around £2 million on Norwood and £4 million on Egan before and seemed to be able to be competitive. I just don’t understand - and there is a good chance I’m just being a fuckwit but my confusion is genuine. Is it the signings in the prem that fucked us over financially (again, not a sly dig at Wilder)? That’s all I can fathom. Please help the financially incapable cos I don’t comprehend!
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United are allowed to lose 13 million a year in this league. We are reluctant or unable to do that. We are being told we are moving to a "sustainable development" model. In the Championship that is shorthand for relegation in the near future. Not immediately, but eventually as our model has to outperform the whole league when the parachutes run out and the current squad is replaced with "sustainable developmentesque" fees and wages.

You pose the question whether the Prem money was spent on fees. I would say largely, yes. But this was allied to a tiny wage bill by Premier League standards. For context, Bournemouth's wage bill wasn't far off double United's. Burnley's will be around 40-50 million higher.

By the way our three biggest signings under Wilder pre Prem were Egan 3.5 million, Norwood 1.2 million and Lundstram 700k. These signings were all funded by big player sales. It seems to me they are bankng on Hecky doing a Wilder. A bit naive?
 
Carlton Blade said:
I'm on record saying this owner has shown worrying levels of naievity in his ongoing refusal to appoint an experienced football executive and the UW stuff (City and Chelsea use theirs to generate funds, not players for the 1st team). But he's not stealing money and I do admire the way he went in 100% under Wilder.
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Agreed. My general mumping is due to realising our natural ceiling (and inability to get through it) as a club, a fact I’ve been steadfastly refusing to accept for 30+ years.
 
Rodley said:
Agreed. My general mumping is due to realising our natural ceiling (and inability to get through it) as a club, a fact I’ve been steadfastly refusing to accept for 30+ years.
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To be fair, every clubs ceiling outside of Chelsea, the Manchester clubs, Liverpool and maybe now Newcastle is the same now. Apart from those lot and maybe Arsenal and Spurs the whole Premier League could be swapped for the top half of the Championship and it wouldn't really matter
 
I don’t know where the myth comes from that we have spent beyond our means ? Under his ownership / part ownership we’ve only spent the money that we’ve generated .
The money spent during his first season was the cash generated from the FA Cup run the previous season . In Wilders L1 promotion season he had to sell Ramsdale & Adams to to finance the sighnings . As said in the OP our only significant layout in tbe Championship was £6M on Egan & Norwood which would have easily been covered by the increase in revenue & in the PL again we’ve just spent again the increased revenue from the PL in fact we got relegated with a £9M profit .
We’ve bought no one in 3 transfer windows despite selling Ramsdale for £24M last season & are still receiving parachute payments ??
We’re not exactly Leeds under Ridsdale are we ?
I thought when the prince was brought in as co owner the arrangement was McCabe was gonna write off a significant amount of his loans to the club & in return the Prince would invest .
In the 7 years or so he’s been here I can’t see any outlay that the team / club didn’t generate themselves ?
The lack of of ambition in palpable and yet again with the season a month away no investment or signings & all the bulkshit of quality not quantity we’re been spinned . Forgive if I’m wrong arent these top quality players that have run down their contacts going to sign for the clubs paying the wages .. that’s not us . I wouldn’t be surprised if Berge ends up at Leeds with Philips moving , and I’ll bet you a pound to pinch of shit the money from it will go straight into an Arab bank account. Hasn’t done too bad for his £1 has he ? Fell very lucky with manager that got us promoted on a shoestring, the sooner he and his cronies fuck the better for me as we are going in one direction without investment and an ageing squad . ⚔️
 
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FFS I just had a quick look at your transfer activity for a few years. Brewster for £23m, Burke for £5.5m, Mousset for £10m, Moonboot McBurnie for £17m!! 😆

Then Robinson for £7m, Freeman for 5m. Ridiculous. No wonder you're skint. Do you actually negotiate with a club or just pay the first price you're quoted?
 
Notts Red said:
FFS I just had a quick look at your transfer activity for a few years. Brewster for £23m, Burke for £5.5m, Mousset for £10m, Moonboot McBurnie for £17m!! 😆

Then Robinson for £7m, Freeman for 5m. Ridiculous. No wonder you're skint. Do you actually negotiate with a club or just pay the first price you're quoted?
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Your deffo a Wendy. No way you'd be spending your time on here when you've just been promoted.
 

Notts Red said:
FFS I just had a quick look at your transfer activity for a few years. Brewster for £23m, Burke for £5.5m, Mousset for £10m, Moonboot McBurnie for £17m!! 😆

Then Robinson for £7m, Freeman for 5m. Ridiculous. No wonder you're skint. Do you actually negotiate with a club or just pay the first price you're quoted?
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After 20 years of un-paralleled success you’d be a great judge of that 😉.. wonder if you were quoting the same when we finished 9th in the PL. ?
I’m quite liking forward to you getting arseholed this season .. no how’s about you fuck off back to to your own fans site .. ta ra ⚔️
 
Notts Red said:
FFS I just had a quick look at your transfer activity for a few years. Brewster for £23m, Burke for £5.5m, Mousset for £10m, Moonboot McBurnie for £17m!! 😆

Then Robinson for £7m, Freeman for 5m. Ridiculous. No wonder you're skint. Do you actually negotiate with a club or just pay the first price you're quoted?
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You should check your sources.
 
Notts Red said:
FFS I just had a quick look at your transfer activity for a few years. Brewster for £23m, Burke for £5.5m, Mousset for £10m, Moonboot McBurnie for £17m!! 😆

Then Robinson for £7m, Freeman for 5m. Ridiculous. No wonder you're skint. Do you actually negotiate with a club or just pay the first price you're quoted?
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Refer you to max Lowe thread and your scabby club getting sent packing
 
Weasel said:
2) we signed players who were expensive for what they were (not going into examples but we can all have a pretty good idea). What we should have been doing is possibly not spending the as much but maybe buying more of the up and coming younger promising players from the leagues below PL. The likes of Ballard at Arsenal etc and tried to ensure that if things went tits up we had a very good set of younger top end championship level players ready to go again.
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This is where we really messed up, imo. Paying vastly over the odds for players due to a myopic manager.

The amount we paid for Brewster, is laughable. It's was like we were a top 4 club spending our billionaire owner's pocket change for 'one for the future' who we then played straight away. Must be one of the most over-valued purchases of all time.

I do wonder why some fans equate having £100 million of tv money as then £100 million to spend on players.

I think it was very telling how many established Premier League clubs we outspent over that time. Ones who already had top class facilities and years of big money. Ones with wealthy owners.
 
Notts Red said:
FFS I just had a quick look at your transfer activity for a few years. Brewster for £23m, Burke for £5.5m, Mousset for £10m, Moonboot McBurnie for £17m!! 😆

Then Robinson for £7m, Freeman for 5m. Ridiculous. No wonder you're skint. Do you actually negotiate with a club or just pay the first price you're quoted?
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Wait and see mate, you're batting in a whole new ballpark, what you don't pay on fees, you'll pay on wages and they've just doubled....
 
robbiez666 said:
Simply put, we overspent in the EPL. 20 million for a player, say, is not a flat 20 million outlay. You have wages (5-10 million over a 4 or 5 year contract), signing on fee for the player and agent fee (2-5 million).

The ground needed investment as did the training pitches, so that's a lot more than you'd think. Upscaling the club at home and abroad costs a fair whack as well.

We overspent on players due to the demands of the manager, a manager who would have kept going if he had his way and bankrupted us (what a Blade). At the same time we failed to invest in the infrastructure.

The recruitment was so bad that we don't have the saleable asserts other teams have. We also had a number of players on high wages not actively contributing but still on the wage bill.

The owner has little of his own free money so we took out loans against the TV money. Those loans have interest. Due to COVID we took an unexpected hit on both TV money and gates. Other clubs have rich owners or investors who can meet shortfalls. We don't.

We'll be paying off the EPL wages until all those players have left. I doubt we'll have much in the way of a transfer kitty until then and that will be back to pre promotion days, but less. Worth remembering that the only reason we spent so much, for us, in the Championship was because we had two chairmen who were vying for power.

The combination of signing Brewster for so much over his value and getting relegated fucked us.we are overspent and trying to claw it back. We must has dropped well north of 20 million with the loans last season and the Slav pay-offs as well in a desperate attempt to go straight back up.
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So, we overspent due to the demands of Wilder, but also, he would have bankrupted us if he got his own way.

We're the board forced to meet his demands? If so, why did we not go bankrupt, given that would've been his way?

We made far more money selling assets after relegation than West Brom or Fulham did, and both of them also made major signings. We might also sell Berge for £20 million ish.

What a blade you are.
 

We are in the bottom 5 for owner wealth in the Championship, yet we were spending £40m every transfer window in the PL.

We played a high risk strategy akin to going all in on every hand in a poker game.

Wilder was backed and he bottled the second season, we also had a poor transfer strategy in retrospect
 
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