What does David Weir think ?

[billyblademan]

I'm afraid you're mad. Ultimately (and pretty obviously to football observers outside deepest, darkest S2 ) the best results are achieved by the teams with the best players, playing the best football [and it ain't Blackwellian Hoof!].

Best players I'd agree with. Best football, no. Look at when Wednesday went up. Yes, Ched hit us for six, but even if we disregard that, we'd have finished about level with Wednesday - despite there being a massive contrast in football styles played.

 

[grafikhaus]

Yeah, Danny Wilson was a disaster, as was Blackwell. Are you for real. Both got us to a play off final and you regard them as disasters? Blackwell while constantly having the rug pulled from under him, Wilson lost his top scorer to prison and had his top scorer the following season sold when we were top of the league. To compare either with Weir is not far off the ramblings of a lunatic.

Nice. Funny how the memory plays tricks. Both Blackwell and Wilson are/were 'nearly men'. In 2009, and with an excellent squad, we surrendered pitifully in the play-off final against Burnley. Blackwell is one of those people where it's always someone else's fault. If he hadn't relied on following Warnock around, his playing/managerial,career would be non-existent. As a manager, he was sacked by Leeds, Luton and Bury and left United 'by mutual consent'. Apart from 2009, his only other foray into the play-off final was with Leeds in 2006. They lost that one, as well.

Oh, but he could 'spot a player.' Discarding Leon Britten, Nathan Dyer and Cotterill, look how their careers have plumetted since.

Wilson has an almost unbroken record of failure - sacked by Barnsley, Wednesday, Bristol City, MK Dons, Hartlepool, Swindon and us. Yes, almost 20 years ago he 'guided Barnsley to the Prem.' (they're not slow to claim credit, these managers. When they fail it's because of board-level incompetence) and that lasted just one season. Obviously he also 'guided' us to the 2012 play-off final and, yes, we lost Ched at a pivotal time. But anybody who was present knew that it was an utterly turgid performance. We were nowhere near ready for the step up. Wilson's 'black cloud effect' extended to the fans. We took less than at the semi the other week and I can't remember a single chant throughout.

And that matters. You can point to win ratios etc. but there was an antithesis of the 'feelgood factor' under these two clowns. NC has reversed that. I couldn't put it better than alcoblade...

I completely agree that Wilson and Blackwell were far from disasters, for the reasons Bladesway points out in a post further up. I'm not at all convinced that the decision to sack Wislon cost us promotion - for me, the wheels were well off by then. But the sale of our top scorer whilst sat top of the league was the fuck up of unitedesque proportions.

Sadly, my abiding memories of both those managers was, despite playing exciting football initially, it ending with the most draining, mind numbingly boring football I've ever known. Luckily for them, David Weir came along to romp away with that accolade very soon after.

UTB

Anyway, I must get back to the asylum to continue my ramblings.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Discarding Leon Britten, Nathan Dyer and Cotterill, look how their careers have plumetted since.

I don't feel particularly comfortable defending Blackwell, but he can hardly be accused of discarding Britton. Blackwell signed him and was sacked within about a month of Britton starting playing for us. That said, the style of football Blackwell deployed was totally unsuited to Britton - Blackwell seemed obvilious to what his attributes actually were.

His treatment of Cotterill & Dyer was terrible. Dyer he signed, then decided not to play despite our lack of wingers, then decided to play him far too late into his loan - his panicky attempt to extend the loan when Dyer could be offered regular football elsewhere was quite embarrassing.

 

[JohnDenver]

Ethos is the wrong word. But I do think different methods yield different results in the medium term. Blackwell's method was expedient in the short term only.

 

[alcoblade]

I'm afraid you're mad. Ultimately (and pretty obviously to football observers outside deepest, darkest S2 ) the best results are achieved by the teams with the best players, playing the best football [and it ain't Blackwellian Hoof!].

^^^^^^^Straw man alert^^^^^

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Ever heard the saying 'A broken clock is right twice a day?'

Corrected for you!

 

[Darren]

I'm afraid you're mad. Ultimately (and pretty obviously to football observers outside deepest, darkest S2 ) the best results are achieved by the teams with the best players, playing the best football [and it ain't Blackwellian Hoof!].

Go on, I'll bite.

Warnock and Blackwell (as I understand your definitions) played "hoof", Robson and Weir didn't. Given that the former were more successful than the latter in their United managerial tenures, how does that square with your theory?

 

[Bladesway]

Nice. Funny how the memory plays tricks. Both Blackwell and Wilson are/were 'nearly men'. In 2009, and with an excellent squad, we surrendered pitifully in the play-off final against Burnley. Blackwell is one of those people where it's always someone else's fault. If he hadn't relied on following Warnock around, his playing/managerial,career would be non-existent. As a manager, he was sacked by Leeds, Luton and Bury and left United 'by mutual consent'. Apart from 2009, his only other foray into the play-off final was with Leeds in 2006. They lost that one, as well.

Oh, but he could 'spot a player.' Discarding Leon Britten, Nathan Dyer and Cotterill, look how their careers have plumetted since.

Wilson has an almost unbroken record of failure - sacked by Barnsley, Wednesday, Bristol City, MK Dons, Hartlepool, Swindon and us. Yes, almost 20 years ago he 'guided Barnsley to the Prem.' (they're not slow to claim credit, these managers. When they fail it's because of board-level incompetence) and that lasted just one season. Obviously he also 'guided' us to the 2012 play-off final and, yes, we lost Ched at a pivotal time. But anybody who was present knew that it was an utterly turgid performance. We were nowhere near ready for the step up. Wilson's 'black cloud effect' extended to the fans. We took less than at the semi the other week and I can't remember a single chant throughout.

And that matters. You can point to win ratios etc. but there was an antithesis of the 'feelgood factor' under these two clowns. NC has reversed that. I couldn't put it better than alcoblade...

Sorry but you are totally rewriting history for your own ends. Look at the facts, both started with good teams. Blackwell played some really exciting attacking stuff when he started. Anyone witnessing the away 5-2 (I think it was) at Charlton or numerous home games when we had Cotterill bombing down the wings, Beattie scoring for fun and generally Blackwell did for us in the Championship what Clough did for us this season. Its the law of diminishing returns however, Blackwell sold his best players and had to replace them with players of a lesser quality. Hey, guess what the quality of the football suffered.

If you look at what he did at Leeds by the way, he slashed their wage budget to enable them to survive and still got them to the play off final. Perhaps he wasn't good enough on the big day, but isn't that the same for so many Managers (Warnock included when he was our manager)?

Wilson, almost the same story but even more unlucky. Playing probably the best football I had seen in recent years once we started going we were unplayable on our day. Everything was going to plan until Ched was sent down. I remember being in Rochdale after we thumped them thinking we were unstoppable. We were until our leading scorer ended up in clink. The knock on effect that had on the squad is indescribable. We fell to pieces. You could feel it and see it. What happened to Ched clearly effected the players and the Manager. We scrambled to a play off final and can you really blame the manager for us not scoring a couple of penalties that were needed in that moment? We ended up losing by a goalkeeper taking a penalty. That is not the Managers fault.

Then the next season we were selling players of any quality but were still top of the pile at Christmas. Football was poor to watch but we were still getting results because we had Blackman scoring goals. We sold him, we stopped scoring goals and so stopped winning games 1-0. Is that the Managers fault?

Ultimately they both failed, on that we should all agree but to say they were a disaster is overlooking at least 50% of the facts. Its easy to blame someone else but actually point the finger at McCabe more than anyone because Mr Blade, Bladey blade lost his bottle twice when his managers needed him most.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

On the Ched front, it was always distinct possibility that he would get sent down. Wilson essentially laid all his eggs in one basket that season.

What would have happened if instead of being sent down, he get injured instead. Would people still have been labelling wilson unlucky then?

 

[Darren]

On the Ched front, it was always distinct possibility that he would get sent down. Wilson essentially laid all his eggs in one basket that season.

What would have happened if instead of being sent down, he get injured instead. Would people still have been labelling wilson unlucky then?

He signed Hoskins for precisely this reason and then he got injured....

I think you also can't ignore the psychlogical effect on the team of having a bloke they knew and (presumably) liked sent down before the game at MK. There's not really much Wilson could do about that.

 

[Darren]

You could also add that the re-signing of Beattie was cover for Ched, but he turned out to be crap and kept getting sent off. O'Halloran could also play up front.

So, Wilson had the following forwards potentially available if Ched wasn't.

Cresswell
Porter
Hoskins
Beattie
O'Halloran.

I really don't think you can criticise him for not planning for the possibility of Ched going down.

 

[Rodders]

You could also add that the re-signing of Beattie was cover for Ched, but he turned out to be crap and kept getting sent off. O'Halloran could also play up front.

So, Wilson had the following forwards potentially available if Ched wasn't.

Cresswell
Porter
Hoskins
Beattie
O'Halloran.

I really don't think you can criticise him for not planning for the possibility of Ched going down.

Wilson's preferred front 2 at the start of the season was Cressy and Porter as well!

 

[Highbury_Blade]

You could also add that the re-signing of Beattie was cover for Ched, but he turned out to be crap and kept getting sent off. O'Halloran could also play up front.

So, Wilson had the following forwards potentially available if Ched wasn't.

Cresswell
Porter
Hoskins
Beattie
O'Halloran.

I really don't think you can criticise him for not planning for the possibility of Ched going down.

Three of those were signed after January. That isn't planning.

 

[Darren]

Three of those were signed after January. That isn't planning.

Captain Hindsight is then an utter arse, given that without Ched's goals we were unlikely to have been so near the top two.

Beattie was signed in December. Hoskins had two months to bed in before the trial date. What's wrong with that?

You are being vastly over critical.

 

[Bladesway]

On the Ched front, it was always distinct possibility that he would get sent down. Wilson essentially laid all his eggs in one basket that season.

What would have happened if instead of being sent down, he get injured instead. Would people still have been labelling wilson unlucky then?

I get you don't like the bloke, for whatever reason. But at least be reasonable when assassinating him. He had players to replace Ched but there is more to it than he just got sent down. It shot the squad to pieces, even David Blunkett could have seen that. Look through the irrational hatred for a minute and there is reason.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I get you don't like the bloke, for whatever reason. But at least be reasonable when assassinating him. He had players to replace Ched but there is more to it than he just got sent down. It shot the squad to pieces, even David Blunkett could have seen that. Look through the irrational hatred for a minute and there is reason.

I liked wilson, i just don't really buy into the 'unlucky' thing. Like rodders said his preferred front paring was creswell and porter at the start of the season. I think he was pretty lucky that he had a striker on the books already that suddenly and unexpectedly discovered his shooting boots.

 

[Darren]

I liked wilson, i just don't really buy into the 'unlucky' thing. Like rodders said his preferred front paring was creswell and porter at the start of the season. I think he was pretty lucky that he had a striker on the books already that suddenly and unexpectedly discovered his shooting boots.

Evans was injured at the start of the season. I am sure Wilson would have preferred him from the start, had he not been.

 

[Revolution]

I liked wilson, i just don't really buy into the 'unlucky' thing. Like rodders said his preferred front paring was creswell and porter at the start of the season. I think he was pretty lucky that he had a striker on the books already that suddenly and unexpectedly discovered his shooting boots.

I agree with Darren and Bladesway. Wilson knew that we would need cover if Evans went down, and he wnet out and got it. It turned out that O"Halloran was hopeless, Beattie's form had collapsed (and he was suspended for the final) and Hoskins, who had done well, got injured. This was bad luck for Wilson. 3 options and none of them working out is unlucky.

Wilson did all he could do. The board backed him. There are many things in recent years we can feel entitled to bitch about, but to me that isn't one of them.

And Cresswell and Porter started up front that season because Evans was injured for a while. You can check.

 

[Lane Ender]

Best players I'd agree with. Best football, no. Look at when Wednesday went up. Yes, Ched hit us for six, but even if we disregard that, we'd have finished about level with Wednesday - despite there being a massive contrast in football styles played.

Wednesday did go up playing physical bullying hoof tactics look where it got them in the championship- nowhere.

Clough is formulating a squad which will win this league and at a minimum will be a top ten side in the championship playing football how it should be played.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I, for one, think it is entirely fair. As someone else said, Weir was happy to play Championship Manager with United and insisted we play a certain way, even when that way was self evidently disastrous. I can't for the life of me see why Weir doing what he thought was right is a good thing and wanting us to play in a certain way are points in his favour.

As was shown after Weir was sacked, this side was clearly good enough for a play off place. Weir's pig headedness ensured that (in the space of only TEN games) we didn't get in the play offs and condmended us to yet another season in the fucking third division. For that, he deserves all the flak he gets.

I agree that Weir got it all wrong and insisted on doing things the hard way. But keep in mind that Weir took over a sliding team. We were painfully poor going forward and close to the bottom of the form table as the 2012/13 season ended.

 

[Revolution]

His treatment of Cotterill & Dyer was terrible. Dyer he signed, then decided not to play despite our lack of wingers, then decided to play him far too late into his loan - his panicky attempt to extend the loan when Dyer could be offered regular football elsewhere was quite embarrassing.

Keith Gillespie says in his book that Cotterill's confidence (and Billy Sharp's confidence) was destroyed by Blackwell.

Of course, the irony is that one of the key reasons for our great run in the last third of 2008-9 was Blackwell finally putting Cotterill back in the team.

 

[Ted Danson]

Can we all just please agree that the 1 man who royally fucked our club was Robson and not Blackwell or Wilson. They both had to sell their best players because of what that drunken clown did

 

[Darren]

Can we all just please agree that the 1 man who royally fucked our club was Robson and not Blackwell or Wilson. They both had to sell their best players because of what that drunken clown did

That's an interesting debate:

Biggest arse: Robson or Weir?

I think I would narrowly go for Robson. No United manager has ever had the resources he had and we should have been pissing the second division in 07-08. The fact that a relatively mediocre manager like Blackwell started to do precisely that when Robson was sacked shows how shit he was.

Had we been promoted in 07-08, how diffeent things would have been....

 

[Bladesway]

Can we all just please agree that the 1 man who royally fucked our club was Robson and not Blackwell or Wilson. They both had to sell their best players because of what that drunken clown did

I'll trump that and say McCabe.

 

[Ted Danson]

That's an interesting debate:

Biggest arse: Robson or Weir?

I think I would narrowly go for Robson. No United manager has ever had the resources he had and we should have been pissing the second division in 07-08. The fact that a relatively mediocre manager like Blackwell started to do precisely that when Robson was sacked shows how shit he was.

Had we been promoted in 07-08, how diffeent things would have been....

Weir had the excuse of having no experience and little funds whereas Robson had plenty of experience and the most funds I think any united manager has had.

I dont agree with Bladesway as I think McCabe is doing what he thinks is best for united but appointing Robosn was the biggest bollock dropped in our history (in my lifetime).

 

[Bladesway]

Weir had the excuse of having no experience and little funds whereas Robson had plenty of experience and the most funds I think any united manager has had.

I dont agree with Bladesway as I think McCabe is doing what he thinks is best for united but appointing Robosn was the biggest bollock dropped in our history (in my lifetime).

I'm sorry but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. McCabe has made catastrophic error after error in recent history. Thankfully we have finally got a good Manager in Clough but I wouldn't want McCabe near any future recruitments.

McCabe brought these people in, McCabe didn't just loosen the purse strings he cut them and then when things weren't looking too rosy he snapped them shut just as we looked to be going in the right direction.

 

[Ted Danson]

I'm sorry but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. McCabe has made catastrophic error after error in recent history. Thankfully we have finally got a good Manager in Clough but I wouldn't want McCabe near any future recruitments.

McCabe brought these people in, McCabe didn't just loosen the purse strings he cut them and then when things weren't looking too rosy he snapped them shut just as we looked to be going in the right direction.

Yeah but before he made mistake after mistake he took us up to the Prem but everyone seems to forget that and concentrates on the badness after. McCabes done a damned site more for this club than any owner I can think of before him. you say he slammed the purse shut but if he hadnt we may not have a club anymore. All these bad decisions also coincided with the global slump where he lost a fair whack of his fortune.

 

[Bladesway]

Yeah but before he made mistake after mistake he took us up to the Prem but everyone seems to forget that and concentrates on the badness after. McCabes done a damned site more for this club than any owner I can think of before him. you say he slammed the purse shut but if he hadnt we may not have a club anymore. All these bad decisions also coincided with the global slump where he lost a fair whack of his fortune.

Don't agree with you. Everyone knows the good things McCabe did but some seem to want to use that as a reason for bottomless good will. He set us up brilliantly and as I may have mentioned before royally fucked it up in a few months of utter madness. He took the plaudits for his good work so equally should take criticism for getting it so very wrong.

Bearing in mind how close we came to auto promotion in Blackwells second season don't you think having Beattie Mk1 and Tonge would have made the difference? If not for automatic then we would have been a better bet in the play off final.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Keith Gillespie says in his book that Cotterill's confidence (and Billy Sharp's confidence) was destroyed by Blackwell.

Of course, the irony is that one of the key reasons for our great run in the last third of 2008-9 was Blackwell finally putting Cotterill back in the team.

From James Shield's column in today's Star:

"Cast your minds back to when the likes of Leon Britton and David Cotterill were on United’s books before departing, far too soon, having failed to cement places in the starting eleven. Britton is now plying his trade in the Premier League while Cotterill, despite Doncaster Rovers’ recent relegation from the Championship, has spent the past nine months in the second tier. Even more of a waste was the bizarre case of Nathan Dyer who, having been secured on loan from Southampton in 2008, tasted only 284 minutes of action during a 14 week stint. (The maximum available was 630)."

Hi James!

 

[steve26272]

placing weir in charge was a gamble on an untried manager, if it works and we had the next Martinez or rogers on our hands then it would have been a macabe mastersroke. If it fails, as it did. Then we all sit in judgement, we all have a degree in hindsight, i wad impressed when we got a bloke who had plied his trade in the top half of the prem, a proven international (all be it with the sweaty socks) and had just come close to landing the Everton job.
as for Robson, well i think macabe got the football version of c*nt struck, and fell for the image of an ex England captain. That said he should have pulled the plug on him spunking loads of coin up the transfer wall of shame.