What does David Weir think ?

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JOEYDEE

JOEYDEE

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Just wondered what Davie Weir thinks about what might have been under his brief tenure at the Lane ,Cloughie has come in with the same squad,and brought in a few of his own,transformed some players,and got all the fans on his side really since day one.
Do you think he may be embarrassed,or will he have watched and learnt,or just accepted he wasn't ready ?
 

JOEYDEE said:
Just wondered what Davie Weir thinks about what might have been under his brief tenure at the Lane ,Cloughie has come in with the same squad,and brought in a few of his own,transformed some players,and got all the fans on his side really since day one.
Do you think he may be embarrassed,or will he have watched and learnt,or just accepted he wasn't ready ?
Click to expand...

If Conor Coady ends up at The Lane, we owe David Weir a vote of thanks, if for nothing else.
 
JOEYDEE said:
Just wondered what Davie Weir thinks about what might have been under his brief tenure at the Lane ,Cloughie has come in with the same squad,and brought in a few of his own,transformed some players,and got all the fans on his side really since day one.
Do you think he may be embarrassed,or will he have watched and learnt,or just accepted he wasn't ready ?
Click to expand...
Who cares? He will have got a handsome payoff for being a useless tool.
 
bladeinbolton said:
Who cares? He will have got a handsome payoff for being a useless tool.
Click to expand...

I think that's very unfair. Personally I thought weir did what he thought was right, it wasn't about the money and he wanted us to play a certain way.

I'm sure in many ways he'll be pleased that the side was able to perform. Many of the side that Clough ended the season with were players that weir tried to work with.

I'm sure he's looked and learnt a lot from his season in league one. Perhaps it's more humbling than he thought. The cash will be little consolation for a man like weir who clearly wants to succeed in management

Good luck to him
 
Managerial success can be down to ability, the right timing, circumstances at the club, or a combination of all three. I'd say for example Steve Bruce was the right guy at the wrong time - both in terms of circumstances at the club and his own point in his career (he was crap for us and Huddersfield). Even someone like Adrian Heath has managed to be successful elsewhere - he'll be leading Orlando City into the MLS next year. Someone like Spackman was the right person at the right time - he wasn't able to replicate his early success at Barnsley. AVB and Moyes at Chelsea and Man United respectively would have been the right people at the wrong time.

I sort of think of both Weir and Moyes in the same light. Both had similar approaches that they tried to drill into a set of players they were unfamiliar with, it didn't work and they weren't flexible enough to change their approach - leading to their inevitable sackings. I actually think had Weir been given the Everton job last summer (he was interviewed for it) he met still be in the job now - managing a set of players he knew, playing a style they were familiar with. It would have been an easier job than the one here to some extent.

Something he had no control over was McDonald's clause in his contract. We'd effectively been set up in such a way that McDonald was the key to everything going forward, as shown in the County game. By the second game he was gone, negativity had started to set in, and then it gained momentum. How he reacted to that, completely within his control, made matters substantially worse. He learnt far to late in the day that he had to change things - I can see him being much more successful in his second job learning from the mistakes of his first. That said, had McDonald not had that clause in his contract Weir might still be with us.

I don't hold any particularly bad feeling towards Weir. In different circumstances it may have been fine. As it turns out, his spell meant that when we got rid we had a much better manager available to us, who wasn't available at the time Weir was appointed. It's all turned out for the best.
 
It's a pity that the 'powers that be' at the Lane gave a chance to somebody who was very much learning his trade, got paid handsomely while learning and, when it failed, gave him a big payoff.

Same with Blackwell & Danny Wilson (didn't take him long to make his mark at Barnsley). Clubs were hardly queuing round the block for their services, but we saw fit to give them 2/3 year contracts. For once with NC, it looks like we've got the right man.

LoughboroBlade said:
I sort of think of both Weir and Moyes in the same light. Both had similar approaches that they tried to drill into a set of players they were unfamiliar with, it didn't work and they weren't flexible enough to change their approach - leading to their inevitable sackings. I actually think had Weir been given the Everton job last summer (he was interviewed for it) he met still be in the job now - managing a set of players he knew, playing a style they were familiar with. It would have been an easier job than the one here to some extent.
Click to expand...

Moyes was a huge mistake. A bloke who was treading water for 13 years at Everton and won nothing, suddenly finds himself at a club where going just one season without silverware is a disaster. Saw it coming.
 
SwissBlade said:
I think that's very unfair. Personally I thought weir did what he thought was right, it wasn't about the money and he wanted us to play a certain way.

I'm sure in many ways he'll be pleased that the side was able to perform. Many of the side that Clough ended the season with were players that weir tried to work with.

I'm sure he's looked and learnt a lot from his season in league one. Perhaps it's more humbling than he thought. The cash will be little consolation for a man like weir who clearly wants to succeed in management

Good luck to him
Click to expand...

I, for one, think it is entirely fair. As someone else said, Weir was happy to play Championship Manager with United and insisted we play a certain way, even when that way was self evidently disastrous. I can't for the life of me see why Weir doing what he thought was right is a good thing and wanting us to play in a certain way are points in his favour.

As was shown after Weir was sacked, this side was clearly good enough for a play off place. Weir's pig headedness ensured that (in the space of only TEN games) we didn't get in the play offs and condmended us to yet another season in the fucking third division. For that, he deserves all the flak he gets.
 
JOEYDEE said:
Just wondered what Davie Weir thinks about what might have been under his brief tenure at the Lane ,Cloughie has come in with the same squad,and brought in a few of his own,transformed some players,and got all the fans on his side really since day one.
Do you think he may be embarrassed,or will he have watched and learnt,or just accepted he wasn't ready ?
Click to expand...

Doubt he's noticed, be struggling to get his shoes on the right feet every morning.
 
bladeinbolton said:
Who cares? He will have got a handsome payoff for being a useless tool.
Click to expand...

To be fair, the pay off probably will not have been that huge. I suspect we were not paying that much as (a) he had no experience (b) he didn't need the money and (c) he would have been eager to get his first managerial job at a relatively sizable club.
 
Pinchy said:
If Conor Coady ends up at The Lane, we owe David Weir a vote of thanks, if for nothing else.
Click to expand...

To be honest, if I had signed 8 players by sticking pins in random names in the Big Book of Football Players, the chances are I would have hit on one decent one.

The "thanks" we owe to Weir for Coady is as nothing compared to the debit side of his account.
 
David Weir was the worst choice made in recent history. The fact that he got lucky with one signing (who incidentally looked as though he was not progressing under weir). The fact that he was not willing to diversify the way he played to get some points on the board shows a lack of man management. If he could not get his message across then build the confidence before slowly diversifying back to it. Some come on 'respecting a bloke for sticking to his principles' - Bollocks, no one did that with Blackwell when he stuck to his! (and before someone starts, I did not like him either).
 
boo radley said:
David Weir was the worst choice made in recent history. The fact that he got lucky with one signing (who incidentally looked as though he was not progressing under weir). The fact that he was not willing to diversify the way he played to get some points on the board shows a lack of man management. If he could not get his message across then build the confidence before slowly diversifying back to it. Some come on 'respecting a bloke for sticking to his principles' - Bollocks, no one did that with Blackwell when he stuck to his! (and before someone starts, I did not like him either).
Click to expand...

I have mentioned this before, but I have never understood why "sticking to your principles" is seen to be a good thing. Surely it depends on what the principles are.

In all world history, the politician who most stuck to hs principles was probably Hitler. It would have been better, perhaps, if he had been a little more unprincipled.
 

Darren said:
I have mentioned this before, but I have never understood why "sticking to your principles" is seen to be a good thing. Surely it depends on what the principles are.

In all world history, the politician who most stuck to hs principles was probably Hitler. It would have been better, perhaps, if he had been a little more unprincipled.
Click to expand...

I think it more likely depends on whether those principles match with your own.

Thatcher and Benn were equally principled people, one gets demonised, the other gets lionised....
 
Darren said:
I, for one, think it is entirely fair. As someone else said, Weir was happy to play Championship Manager with United and insisted we play a certain way, even when that way was self evidently disastrous. I can't for the life of me see why Weir doing what he thought was right is a good thing and wanting us to play in a certain way are points in his favour.

As was shown after Weir was sacked, this side was clearly good enough for a play off place. Weir's pig headedness ensured that (in the space of only TEN games) we didn't get in the play offs and condmended us to yet another season in the fucking third division. For that, he deserves all the flak he gets.
Click to expand...

Doesn't every manager play 'Championship Manager' to an extent? The way Weir set us up wasn't disimilar to the formation that Clough plays. He's playing many of the same players and the formation has been Weir's 4-5-1 too.

Three big things for me which have been the difference:

1) Possession v High Tempo: Under Weir we tried to control possession and dominate teams this way. Clough has allowed teams to play in front of us. Clough came into a team with confidence at rock bottom and through the FA cup got the team to become confident in allowing the opposition to keep possession, but only where we allowed it. Clough set us up to counter teams with pace. Weir set us up to maintain possession and keep the ball, ultimately this meant that teams could press us back and force a lot of errors. Errors which have seen us also get caught out under Clough, but he's worked to minimise these individual and collective errors.

2) Discipline: The key though has been that the game plan under Clough has been firm and fixed. He picks a starting 11 which is his strongest team. Almost all managers before him in the last 10 years have done the same, but have chopped and changed after 60 mins. Clough has had confidence in his starting 11 to do the job

Ultimately, this has comedown to discipline. Each and every player knows his job and his team mates job too. They're a collective, well drilled team.

3) In fairness to Weir, Clough had time to assess the team before the transfer window and also allow the players not performing to raise their games. Brandy and Taylor didn't. Flynn and Murphy did. Clough, once he'd assessed the players, saw fit to bring in quality like Scougall, Brayford and Harris. All of which contributed with pace. We don't know how Weir would've handled the Transfer Window, we only know that Clough worked it very well, with the exception of Billy Paynter, Clough's work in the transfer and loan markets was excellent. But then Weir was no dummy, bringing in Coady, McGinn and Baxter.

Weirs unforgivable signing was Marlon King, but as I found out from within the club, this was not just Weirs decision, but a club decision.

Weir made errors, I'm not sure he was necessarily pig headed as the formation has worked under Clough. I think his execution was poor. For example not realising at Bradford that they were vulnerable on the Counter attack and that Taylor didn't like the ball into his feet with his back to goal, he wanted the ball in front of him.

Weir should take some blame of course, but as always, so should many of the players who didn't perform. Flynn, Doyle, Coady, Taylor, Murphy they were all poor compared to the same players that ended the season (Taylor apart).

Clough, should be praised highly, he could be forgiven for doing as Harry's Game suggested and forget the FA Cup, he could've taken no notice of Morgan, he could've arrogantly walked in (like others before him) and dismissed players. Clough has given chances to fringe players and quickly sifted through to find his team. Its why he is looking like the best manager we've had in my lifetime.

Weir lacked experience, didn't know when/ how to get the best out of his players and ultimately wasn't flexible once the players went over the white line. To a greater extent, neither is Clough. Clough is just much much better at the job than David Weir.
 
Highbury_Blade said:
I think it more likely depends on whether those principles match with your own.

Thatcher and Benn were equally principled people, one gets demonised, the other gets lionised....
Click to expand...

All politicians compromise, otherwise they are condemned to eternal impotence (or, as with Hitler, kill lots of people).

For both Benn and Thatcher, it was when they stopped being wily compromising politicians (79-81 in Benn's case and 88-90 in Thatche's) and started "sticking to their principles", that they soon ceased to have any power.
 
Darren said:
All politicians compromise, otherwise they are condemned to eternal impotence (or, as with Hitler, kill lots of people).

For both Benn and Thatcher, it was when they stopped being wily compromising politicians (79-81 in Benn's case and 88-90 in Thatche's) and started "sticking to their principles", that they soon ceased to have any power.
Click to expand...

Yes but that's not the uninformed public perception of those people. Without meaning to drag up a can of worms (but you started it by invoking Godwins law:))You think the people of South Yorkshire see the actions of Thatcher during the miners strike as that of a compromising politician?
 
SwissBlade said:
Doesn't every manager play 'Championship Manager' to an extent? The way Weir set us up wasn't disimilar to the formation that Clough plays. He's playing many of the same players and the formation has been Weir's 4-5-1 too.

Three big things for me which have been the difference:

1) Possession v High Tempo: Under Weir we tried to control possession and dominate teams this way. Clough has allowed teams to play in front of us. Clough came into a team with confidence at rock bottom and through the FA cup got the team to become confident in allowing the opposition to keep possession, but only where we allowed it. Clough set us up to counter teams with pace. Weir set us up to maintain possession and keep the ball, ultimately this meant that teams could press us back and force a lot of errors. Errors which have seen us also get caught out under Clough, but he's worked to minimise these individual and collective errors.

2) Discipline: The key though has been that the game plan under Clough has been firm and fixed. He picks a starting 11 which is his strongest team. Almost all managers before him in the last 10 years have done the same, but have chopped and changed after 60 mins. Clough has had confidence in his starting 11 to do the job

Ultimately, this has comedown to discipline. Each and every player knows his job and his team mates job too. They're a collective, well drilled team.

3) In fairness to Weir, Clough had time to assess the team before the transfer window and also allow the players not performing to raise their games. Brandy and Taylor didn't. Flynn and Murphy did. Clough, once he'd assessed the players, saw fit to bring in quality like Scougall, Brayford and Harris. All of which contributed with pace. We don't know how Weir would've handled the Transfer Window, we only know that Clough worked it very well, with the exception of Billy Paynter, Clough's work in the transfer and loan markets was excellent. But then Weir was no dummy, bringing in Coady, McGinn and Baxter.

Weirs unforgivable signing was Marlon King, but as I found out from within the club, this was not just Weirs decision, but a club decision.

Weir made errors, I'm not sure he was necessarily pig headed as the formation has worked under Clough. I think his execution was poor. For example not realising at Bradford that they were vulnerable on the Counter attack and that Taylor didn't like the ball into his feet with his back to goal, he wanted the ball in front of him.

Weir should take some blame of course, but as always, so should many of the players who didn't perform. Flynn, Doyle, Coady, Taylor, Murphy they were all poor compared to the same players that ended the season (Taylor apart).

Clough, should be praised highly, he could be forgiven for doing as Harry's Game suggested and forget the FA Cup, he could've taken no notice of Morgan, he could've arrogantly walked in (like others before him) and dismissed players. Clough has given chances to fringe players and quickly sifted through to find his team. Its why he is looking like the best manager we've had in my lifetime.

Weir lacked experience, didn't know when/ how to get the best out of his players and ultimately wasn't flexible once the players went over the white line. To a greater extent, neither is Clough. Clough is just much much better at the job than David Weir.
Click to expand...
Sorry mate, I just don't get this respect for Weir s way. If it don't work it looks crap. Patients is fine for so long but you sometimes have to have a go. I don't think the players should take much blame under Weir apart from maybe becoming unconfident which is down to him again. If the players are incapable of, or don't understand his way it is also down to him.
Murphy and Flynn were bit part players under Wilson as well as Weir and Clough did not see much hope for either of them. What happened to them then is incredible???
 
Highbury_Blade said:
Yes but that's not the uninformed public perception of those people. Without meaning to drag up a can of worms (but you started it by invoking Godwins law:))You think the people of South Yorkshire see the actions of Thatcher during the miners strike as that of a compromising politician?
Click to expand...

In the Miners' strike, Thatcher's position was far more compromising than Scargill's. One example, is the NACODS episode when the NCB was going to discipline the deputies for not crossing NUM picket lines and NACODS threatened to strike. That would have clsoed down the entire industry. Thatcher told the NCB, in no uncertain terms, to settle the NACODS dispute on their terms. So much for standing up to the unions.

She also knew that, on the whole, public opinion was with her side and that the union's position was fundamentally a weak one. Hence it was a sensible strategy from her point of view to confront the miners. In 1981, faced with a strike when her position was much weaker, she had backed down. Her all anti-union approach was also far more nuanced and sutble (whittling away at their powers with an anti TU Act every 2 years rather than going for a big bang like Wilson and Heath did) than previous governments.

My point is that she was a very good politician who knew when to back down and when to fight. She lost that ability towards the end of her term and that's when she lost power.
 
Weirs biggest problem was he was dull as fuck and couldnt motivate himself let alone the players. I have no sympathy for him, he was just gash in every way and got paid handsomely for it
 
Ted Danson said:
Weirs biggest problem was he was dull as fuck and couldnt motivate himself let alone the players. I have no sympathy for him, he was just gash in every way and got paid handsomely for it
Click to expand...

The boring bastards biggest problem as far as I'm concerned is that he lost me fifty fucking quid!
 
No sympathy for Weir at all, he got things very wrong but stubbornly stuck with it and had no hint of a plan B, that smacks of either a huge amount of naivety or arrogance.

And thanking him for Coady, what a load of bollocks, Coady was shite under Weir, there is only one man responsible for turning Coady into a success last season, (as well as others)
 
SwissBlade said:
The cash will be little consolation for a man like weir who clearly wants to succeed in management
Click to expand...

Aye, I bet the £1,000,000 for 3 months work meant nothing to him. In fact, I bet he refused to take it. :)

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Aye, I bet the £1,000,000 for 3 months work meant nothing to him. In fact, I bet he refused to take it. :)

UTB
Click to expand...

Go on then, how did you arrive at that figure :)

Off the top of my head, I doubt if he walked off with (after tax, and given the fact that he got a job with Brentford soon after) more than £200,000 (still very nice if you can get it).
 

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