Watching football in years gone by...

[grafikhaus]

As a direct result of the 'Shoreham Republican Army' thread, I thought it might be an idea to nostagilise about watching football in general - and the Blades in particular - in the '60s, 70s and 80s. It's not intended to turn into one of those 'hooli books', but more to inform younger fans what it was really like back then. I hope some of the more, er, mature fans on here will join in.

When I read about 'standing areas', 'singing zones', smoke bombs' etc. I can help but think how the game, and society, has changed. Hopefully it'll be similar to Blades Tales. Most of the stories will be in the 'you had to be there' category. So indulge us, young 'uns. Think of it as asking 'What did you do in the war,dad?'

I'm not going to kick off with any specific incident, but to 'paint a picture' of life in the aforementioned years. Although the war had been over for more than 40 years, there were still plenty of 'bomb sites' around Sheffield. The Moor had been bombed and they never got round to properly rebuilding it. Most of the 'shops' were like the dummy towns in Western films - a frontage and fuck all behind it.

Above all, I remember how England in general - and Sheffield in particular - was fucking loppy. The buses stank of stale smoke, everywhere in the city centre resembled the Castle Market area (shitty), the Peace Gardens were the hangout for winos and the 'Hole in the Road' was just grim.

It was against this 'This Is England' atmosphere that we made our way down to Pnd Street bus station (via Cinicenta etc.) to pay a few quid to go on the Sheffield United Tours coach to the next away game...

Join in!

 

[TJB.]

Parts of The Moor still look like a war zone to this day.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

"No Spitting" signs on buses....

 

[travellingblade]

At Lincoln aHow things have changed.

First some background, my dad was never interested in football, so he never "took me" to a game. I only went to the same match as him once, one Christmas when we were at home to Manchester United, Bobby Charlton, Dennis Law, George Best, et al, and only because my dad was going with his drinking mate.

In the 50s we were really poor, and my mum and dad couldn't afford their own place, so they moved into one of my dad's distant cousins, a single bloke, whom I called Uncle even though strictly speaking he wasn't. Anyway, he was from the "other side", so my first visit was to Hillsborough to watch them lose against Tottenham.

In those days, if you were interested in football, you couldn't really afford to attend away games, so my Uncle naturally took me to Bramall Lane, and from that day to this I am and was a Blade!

Then one weekend, my Uncle couldn't take me to Bramall Lane. What horror!

Anyway, I convinced my "mam" that I'd be ok going on my own.

So there I was SIX years old, getting on a tram in Darnall, 2d ride into Fitzallen Square, a walk down the hill past Pond Street, and onwards to Shoreham Street, and to my usually standing place just behind the railings on the Kops. After a successful result (I can't remember against whom, but Doc Pace got a couple), I did the return journey home. After that there was no shopping me.

Today, we live in Lincoln, and we always go to the game with a full car of five, usually, myself, my wife, my son (or sometimes my daughter) and two of my grandchildren (all Blades season tickets). However recently we (adults) couldn't make it one Saturday, but my 15 year old grandson said he still wanted to go. I said that's ok we could put him on a train at Lincoln which is direct to Sheffield Midland, and we could pick him up Lincoln station on the way back.

However it was considered to be "too dangerous" for this to occur - How the world has changed! (Unfortunately)

UTB

 

[JJ Sefton]

Fans of a certain vintage might enjoy these reminiscences from Walth Snr...

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

As a direct result of the 'Shoreham Republican Army' thread, I thought it might be an idea to nostagilise about watching football in general - and the Blades in particular - in the '60s, 70s and 80s. It's not intended to turn into one of those 'hooli books', but more to inform younger fans what it was really like back then. I hope some of the more, er, mature fans on here will join in.

When I read about 'standing areas', 'singing zones', smoke bombs' etc. I can help but think how the game, and society, has changed. Hopefully it'll be similar to Blades Tales. Most of the stories will be in the 'you had to be there' category. So indulge us, young 'uns. Think of it as asking 'What did you do in the war,dad?'

I'm not going to kick off with any specific incident, but to 'paint a picture' of life in the aforementioned years. Although the war had been over for more than 40 years, there were still plenty of 'bomb sites' around Sheffield. The Moor had been bombed and they never got round to properly rebuilding it. Most of the 'shops' were like the dummy towns in Western films - a frontage and fuck all behind it.

Above all, I remember how England in general - and Sheffield in particular - was fucking loppy. The buses stank of stale smoke, everywhere in the city centre resembled the Castle Market area (shitty), the Peace Gardens were the hangout for winos and the 'Hole in the Road' was just grim.

It was against this 'This Is England' atmosphere that we made our way down to Pnd Street bus station (via Cinicenta etc.) to pay a few quid to go on the Sheffield United Tours coach to the next away game...

Join in!

Captures it really well. At the risk of starting a riot a mate of mine once attributed this change, which happened nationally, to Thatcher. Or, at least, to some of the kinds of policies those government implemented.

There might be something to that. Up until the 80s there was a kind of Eastern European grimness to everything.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Captures it really well. At the risk of starting a riot a mate of mine once attributed this change, which happened nationally, to Thatcher. Or, at least, to some of the kinds of policies those government implemented.

There might be something to that. Up until the 80s there was a kind of Eastern European grimness to everything.

There wasn't much investment in facilities in the several decades before the 1990s so stadiums in the 80s were generally rusting sheds which stunk of piss. At worse, they were death traps. Why so little investment? Probably because there was so little potential return. You might make a few quid running a football club now (and then only rarely), but before big money and Sky Sports that wasn't there so you ran one for a bit of fun. You certainly weren't likely to speculate to accumulate as their was nowt to accumulate before the Premier League.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

At Lincoln aHow things have changed.

First some background, my dad was never interested in football, so he never "took me" to a game. I only went to the same match as him once, one Christmas when we were at home to Manchester United, Bobby Charlton, Dennis Law, George Best, et al, and only because my dad was going with his drinking mate.

In the 50s we were really poor, and my mum and dad couldn't afford their own place, so they moved into one of my dad's distant cousins, a single bloke, whom I called Uncle even though strictly speaking he wasn't. Anyway, he was from the "other side", so my first visit was to Hillsborough to watch them lose against Tottenham.

In those days, if you were interested in football, you couldn't really afford to attend away games, so my Uncle naturally took me to Bramall Lane, and from that day to this I am and was a Blade!

Then one weekend, my Uncle couldn't take me to Bramall Lane. What horror!

Anyway, I convinced my "mam" that I'd be ok going on my own.

So there I was SIX years old, getting on a tram in Darnall, 2d ride into Fitzallen Square, a walk down the hill past Pond Street, and onwards to Shoreham Street, and to my usually standing place just behind the railings on the Kops. After a successful result (I can't remember against whom, but Doc Pace got a couple), I did the return journey home. After that there was no shopping me.

Today, we live in Lincoln, and we always go to the game with a full car of five, usually, myself, my wife, my son (or sometimes my daughter) and two of my grandchildren (all Blades season tickets). However recently we (adults) couldn't make it one Saturday, but my 15 year old grandson said he still wanted to go. I said that's ok we could put him on a train at Lincoln which is direct to Sheffield Midland, and we could pick him up Lincoln station on the way back.

However it was considered to be "too dangerous" for this to occur - How the world has changed! (Unfortunately)

UTB

Great post. And wouldn't it be great to live in that world.again?

There is a school of thought that it's media scaremongering exaggerating dangers out of all proportion to shift units that has led to this cultural change.

Or is it cars?

Or summat else?

I do fairly often see young kids, under 10 say, going to the shops, but - at the risk of causing another riot - they're from certain subcultures.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

There wasn't much investment in facilities in the several decades before the 1990s so stadiums in the 80s were generally rusting sheds which stunk of piss. At worse, they were death traps. Why so little investment? Probably because there was so little potential return. You might make a few quid running a football club now (and then only rarely), but before big money and Sky Sports that wasn't there so you ran one for a bit of fun. You certainly weren't likely to speculate to accumulate as their was nowt to accumulate before the Premier League.

But the grimness was everywhere as in the OP eg the Hole in the Road.

 

[JJ Sefton]

But the grimness was everywhere as in the OP eg the Hole in the Road.

Well there wasn't much investment happening anywhere in Britain post World War Two. What there was, like Park Hill Flats where my mum lived as a kid, was crap - they were hovels inside 20 years.

Partly this was because, after getting Blitzed, there was lots of investment needed and, having sold off our overseas assets to pay for the war, little cash to fund it. Partly it was because when we did get cash we spent it on consumption rather than investment. Germany took its Marshall Aid and rebuilt the Rhur Valley. We took ours and bribed doctors into accepting the NHS.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Well there wasn't much investment happening anywhere in Britain post World War Two. What there was, like Park Hill Flats where my mum lived as a kid, was crap - they were hovels inside 20 years.

Partly this was because, after getting Blitzed, there was lots of investment needed and, having sold off our overseas assets to pay for the war, little cash to fund it. Partly it was because when we did get cash we spent it on consumption rather than investment. Germany took its Marshall Aid and rebuilt the Rhur Valley. We took ours and bribed doctors into accepting the NHS.

Walthy, isn't the flipside of your argument that genuinely poor families no longer had to weigh up whether it was worth paying for a doctor to visit or to pay a domestic bill? In those days a GP would expect payment from a patient, otherwise no treatment.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Walthy, isn't the flipside of your argument that genuinely poor families no longer had to weigh up whether it was worth paying for a doctor to visit or to pay a domestic bill? In those days a GP would expect payment from a patient, otherwise no treatment.

That may well be the flipside (it may not), but the fact remains that it was consumption spending and not investment.

 

[itsinyerblood]

That may well be the flipside (it may not), but the fact remains that it was consumption spending and not investment.

It was investment on a human-need scale. Our housing stock was the worst in Europe, thus illness, due to damp and infestation, was off any known scale at that time. Making it possible for poor, even destitute, families to be treated for illness without worrying about where the money was to be found was a government looking after it's people. Those who fought in the war also expected significant changes when they returned from war, and this was a first step in that process.

I know you and I have discussed this before, to the point of disagreeing about the value of the NHS to this country's populace, but the fact remains, the NHS is a fundamental in a progressive society's approach to those who live here.

 

[JJ Sefton]

It was investment on a human-need scale. Our housing stock was the worst in Europe, thus illness, due to damp and infestation, was off any known scale at that time. Making it possible for poor, even destitute, families to be treated for illness without worrying about where the money was to be found was a government looking after it's people. Those who fought in the war also expected significant changes when they returned from war, and this was a first step in that process.

I know you and I have discussed this before, to the point of disagreeing about the value of the NHS to this country's populace, but the fact remains, the NHS is a fundamental in a progressive society's approach to those who live here.

Again, that may or may not all be true. The plain fact remains that rebuilding your industrial capacity (as the Krauts did) is investment, bribing your doctors (as we did) is consumption. This makes no judgment as to the relative 'worth' of these two bits of spending, it merely describes what they were.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Again, that may or may not all be true. The plain fact remains that rebuilding your industrial capacity (as the Krauts did) is investment, bribing your doctors (as we did) is consumption. This makes no judgment as to the relative 'worth' of these two bits of spending, it merely describes what they were.

I can't be bothered to compare the relative 'value' of perceived truth, but the housing conditions I described were fact, and the health of a large section of this country needed addressing urgently. Better housing stock was indeed needed, but while the country waited for houses to be built illness would continue at a devastating cost to those who suffered. Ensuring that previously denied health-care was finally available was a boon to those who had never experienced this before.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I can't be bothered to compare the relative 'value' of perceived truth, but the housing conditions I described were fact, and the health of a large section of this country needed addressing urgently. Better housing stock was indeed needed, but while the country waited for houses to be built illness would continue at a devastating cost to those who suffered. Ensuring that previously denied health-care was finally available was a boon to those who had never experienced this before.

And, to repeat, that is neither here nor there to the point I am making which is what constitutes investment spending and what doesn't.

 

[itsinyerblood]

And, to repeat, that is neither here nor there to the point I am making which is what constitutes investment spending and what doesn't.

But it was investment, just not in the way you'd care to identify it.

 

[Revolution]

Well there wasn't much investment happening anywhere in Britain post World War Two. What there was, like Park Hill Flats where my mum lived as a kid, was crap - they were hovels inside 20 years.

Partly this was because, after getting Blitzed, there was lots of investment needed and, having sold off our overseas assets to pay for the war, little cash to fund it. Partly it was because when we did get cash we spent it on consumption rather than investment. Germany took its Marshall Aid and rebuilt the Rhur Valley. We took ours and bribed doctors into accepting the NHS.

I think that having not to spend any money on defence was a bigger advantage for Germany (and Japan for that matter) than our spending some money on the NHS, which was certainly what the electorate wanted at the time, and of course has been a great post war success

 

[JJ Sefton]

But it was investment, just not in the way you'd care to identify it.

Straight out of the Gordon Brown book of finance. I'm off to the pub tonight. I'm going tell the missus I 'invested' £30 on beer. It's investment, just not the way she'd care to define it.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I think that having not to spend any money on defence was a bigger advantage for Germany (and Japan for that matter) than our spending some money on the NHS, which was certainly what the electorate wanted at the time, and of course has been a great post war success

I don't say that is the sole cause. Our inflationary monetary policy relative to Germany's was probably a bigger factor in choking investment all told.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Straight out of the Gordon Brown book of finance. I'm off to the pub tonight. I'm going tell the missus I 'invested' £30 on beer. It's investment, just not the way she'd care to define it.

As Brown wasn't born then I think you'll require another reference. Seriously, it was money invested in the health of members of our society. If you choose to compare this to buying a pint of beer then it's obviously something you won't attach much value to, unless of course beer represents the pinnacle of why you exist?

 

[JJ Sefton]

As Brown wasn't born then I think you'll require another reference. Seriously, it was money invested in the health of members of our society. If you choose to compare this to buying a pint of beer then it's obviously something you won't attach much value to, unless of course beer represents the pinnacle of why you exist?

That's rather spectacularly missing the point. The point is that terms like 'investment' have actual economic meanings beyond 'spending on stuff I approve of'. You may not have a clue what this meaning actually is but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[itsinyerblood]

That's rather spectacularly missing the point. The point is that terms like 'investment' have actual economic meanings beyond 'spending on stuff I approve of'. You may not have a clue what this meaning actually is but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

So spending on the NHS wasn't an economic investment?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Straight out of the Gordon Brown book of finance. I'm off to the pub tonight. I'm going tell the missus I 'invested' £30 on beer. It's investment, just not the way she'd care to define it.

Interested observer writes...

Genuine Question: What would be a more conventional use of the term 'invest' in this case?

I suppose what I'm getting at is there's an implicit value judgement in investment as positive, but when what constitutes 'investment' is defined arbitrarily then not investing just becomes dogmatic and self-referential.

You didn't spend it on X, therefore it's not investment.
But you decided what we call investment.
Yes I did. And you're not investing.
But it has all sorts of other benefits which a broader definition of investment might encompass.
Yes, but that's not the definition we're using, therefore it's not investment.
You mean it's not investment as you've defined it.

That seems to be the gist of the conversation, but I'm prepared to listen to alternatives.

 

[JJ Sefton]

So spending on the NHS wasn't an economic investment?

Some is, some isn't.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Interested observer writes...

Genuine Question: What would be a more conventional use of the term 'invest' in this case?

I suppose what I'm getting at is there's an implicit value judgement in investment as positive, but when what constitutes 'investment' is defined arbitrarily then not investing just becomes dogmatic and self-referential.

You didn't spend it on X, therefore it's not investment.
But you decided what we call investment.
Yes I did. And you're not investing.
But it has all sorts of other benefits which a broader definition of investment might encompass.
Yes, but that's not the definition we're using, therefore it's not investment.
You mean it's not investment as you've defined it.

That seems to be the gist of the conversation, but I'm prepared to listen to alternatives.

Investment, technically, is spending that will increase your wealth in some future period. So if getting a chemistry degree will get you a higher salary any money you spend on it is investment. If you study Woody Allen films with no expectation of it increasing your future wealth, much as you might enjoy it, it is consumption.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

That's rather spectacularly missing the point. The point is that terms like 'investment' have actual economic meanings beyond 'spending on stuff I approve of'. You may not have a clue what this meaning actually is but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Seems to answer my question.

So is the definition of the term 'investment' used here a reasonable one.

And fwiw it might be best inside quotes to distinguish it from common, non-technical usage.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

So spending on the NHS wasn't an economic investment?

In economics terms, no it isn't, it would be classed as consumer spending.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Investment, technically, is spending that will increase your wealth in some future period. So if getting a chemistry degree will get you a higher salary any money you spend on it is investment. If you study Woody Allen films with no expectation of it increasing your future wealth, much as you might enjoy it, it is consumption.

Thanks. But if watching Woody Allen films makes you happier then that's an investment, albeit an intangible one.

Assuming happiness leads in some immeasurable but seemingly reasonable way to increased productivity, better health etc.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Seems to answer my question.

So is the definition of the term 'investment' used here a reasonable one.

And fwiw it might be best inside quotes to distinguish it from common, non-technical usage.

I think that it is people who would redefine the term so it has no meaning at all who should stick it in quotes when they use it.

As a general point, the train from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street is yielding economic benefits to people even now, 150 years after it was built. Old houses do the same. By contrast, look at Park Hill Flats. Much was built, much has been pulled down. The Hole in the Road, dug, got crap, got filled in. Low quality investment.