Tom Lawrence

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TL going to West Brom… another good free signing by the baggies. If we have a lower budget why are we not after these quality free agents they have picked up. That’s now Swift, Lawrence and Wallace. All creative players we really need.

Why can’t we compete with the likes of WBA?? If we aren’t even attempting to get these players, then what are we doing??

I don’t want to be one of those fans but I’m starting to get worried about this transfer window.
 

Pandev said:
TL going to West Brom… another good free signing by the baggies. If we have a lower budget why are we not after these quality free agents they have picked up. That’s now Swift, Lawrence and Wallace. All creative players we really need.

Why can’t we compete with the likes of WBA?? If we aren’t even attempting to get these players, then what are we doing??

I don’t want to be one of those fans but I’m starting to get worried about this transfer window.
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Is he?

Thought this mornings article said despite reports, WBA aren’t pursuing TL?

footballleagueworld.co.uk

Fresh transfer twist emerges in West Brom’s pursuit of Derby County star in potential Sheffield United, Watford boost

West Bromwich Albion are not pursuing a move for Derby County winger Tom Lawrence despite being reported to be closing in on him, according to an update from Express and Star. The 28-year-old looks likely to depart Pride Park on the expiration of his contract amid interest from elsewhere, with...
footballleagueworld.co.uk footballleagueworld.co.uk
 
Pandev said:
TL going to West Brom… another good free signing by the baggies. If we have a lower budget why are we not after these quality free agents they have picked up. That’s now Swift, Lawrence and Wallace. All creative players we really need.

Why can’t we compete with the likes of WBA?? If we aren’t even attempting to get these players, then what are we doing??

I don’t want to be one of those fans but I’m starting to get worried about this transfer window.
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Only one of those really fit our system.

Im not worried whatsoever. The only scenario I would start to worry is if we started selling the likes of Ndiaye/Berge/Brewster without getting replacements.
 
Pandev said:
TL going to West Brom… another good free signing by the baggies. If we have a lower budget why are we not after these quality free agents they have picked up. That’s now Swift, Lawrence and Wallace. All creative players we really need.

Why can’t we compete with the likes of WBA?? If we aren’t even attempting to get these players, then what are we doing??

I don’t want to be one of those fans but I’m starting to get worried about this transfer window.
Click to expand...

There are two parts to the answer to your question - firstly look how many seasons in recent years they spent in the Prem and the revenues they received. Also take a look at their owner, Lai Guochuan's net worth - they will lead you to the reason why they appear to have a larger budget than Utd.

​

 
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Willglynning said:
I don’t think that’s a uniquely Man United problem. Top clubs produce hundreds of players and the vast, vast majority of them are let go. Statistically, 0.5% of players in academies will ever sign a professional contract.

Whilst Lawrence hasn’t had a particularly notable career in the grand scheme of things, he’s played in the top flight and been capped for his country. This is a lot more than what most academy players could even dream of.


And in regards to Man United players not making it- the exact opposite is true. In 21/22 Man United had produced 71 players who were playing in the top flight.

71.

This is 19 ahead of second place Chelsea and 25 ahead of third place Everton.
Manchester United are also the highest producer of players in the Championship.

Since your point was explicitly about players who left Man United early, here some other notable examples of players who were let go young and went on to have decent careers at top-flight: Paul Pogba, Ryan Shawcross, Josh King, Michael Keane, Gerard Pique, Danny Drinkwater, Tom Heaton, etc.

If you cast your net for how early they were let go, and what level of football can be considered ‘top’ then it looks even better for Man United. As it’s extremely rare to transition through from academy to professional football- players like Tom Lawrence, Oli Norwood, Frazier Campbell, Will Keane, James Chester, among others, have all had decent careers, even if not consistently at top flight level.

Whilst there will always be James Wilsons or Febian Brandys, it seems quite reductive to make sweeping statements on all these people as if they’re all moulded exactly the same, when there’s 108 Man United produced players between the Premier League, Championship and League 1.
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I didn't suggest it's a uniquely Man United problem. The thread is about Tom Lawrence so I'm explicitly referring to his path, and others who have been on the same path.

I also didn't suggest that none go on to have decent careers. Many do, as you explain. I'm not disputing their ability to forge a solid career for themselves. My suggestion was that almost all of them have attitude problems, seldom become better footballers than when they were still in the academy, or take the best part of 10 years to fulfil whatever potential they have - by which time they've become very expensive thanks to years of being 'an Man United product' driving up every contract renewal or transfer. The fact that the stockpile spills into the EFL so often we can interpret in many ways. My view is that most clubs' scouting is lazy and they'll sign a Man United academy player because he was a Man United academy player. I wouldn't class it as a measure of that academy's success, more its capacity.

I should have been clearer that I meant the British crop who come through at Man United. Pogba and Pique were also purchased as they were approaching a professional age and weren't 'let go'.

I mentioned Michael Keane further up as the one who has made the most of a career. Drinkwater, Heaton, King, Shawcross...I'm not sure anyone missed the boat of them. Solid pros and honest enough careers but none represented good value at any time in their career, as a prospective transfer target.

Maybe all this just means Man United are good at recognising a player's future ability level and cutting their losses at the right time. I'm not really concerned about that.

The overall point, prompted by our apparent interest in Lawrence, is that he would be an expensive risk, comes with baggage, isn't any more likely to deliver than a cheaper, well-scouted signing, and isn't going to improve. Unfortunately I feel this is true of the vast majority of Man United academy graduates, who are more expensive by default, are less likely to be have their feet on the ground due to the environment they developed within and no more likely to have above-average technical ability.

The sweeping statement wasn't to slur any of those players this applies to. It was to suggest they aren't attractive targets to Sheffield United and should be double scrutinised or avoided.
 
Pandev said:
TL going to West Brom… another good free signing by the baggies. If we have a lower budget why are we not after these quality free agents they have picked up. That’s now Swift, Lawrence and Wallace. All creative players we really need.

Why can’t we compete with the likes of WBA?? If we aren’t even attempting to get these players, then what are we doing??

I don’t want to be one of those fans but I’m starting to get worried about this transfer window.
Click to expand...
Because budget includes wage bill? Lawrence will want £50k, or thereabouts, so will Swift and, to a lesser extent, Wallace. These are their peak years.

That £7.5 million, per year, for the 3 of them. Paid whether they're playing or not, over the duration of their contracts. Let's say 3 years so £22.5 million commitment.

WBA have a billionaire owner who is play shit or bust for promotion. If it fails, they'll have to dramatically cut their wage bill.

We are in the course of bringing down our wage bill. Imagine how happy our players on say £25k would be when we give new signings twice as much money. Imagine trying to convince Berge to stay or Ndiaye to sign a contract which is half the amount we're paying to new signings?

Like buying car insurance.
 
Panini said:
I didn't suggest it's a uniquely Man United problem. The thread is about Tom Lawrence so I'm explicitly referring to his path, and others who have been on the same path.

I also didn't suggest that none go on to have decent careers. Many do, as you explain. I'm not disputing their ability to forge a solid career for themselves. My suggestion was that almost all of them have attitude problems, seldom become better footballers than when they were still in the academy, or take the best part of 10 years to fulfil whatever potential they have - by which time they've become very expensive thanks to years of being 'an Man United product' driving up every contract renewal or transfer. The fact that the stockpile spills into the EFL so often we can interpret in many ways. My view is that most clubs' scouting is lazy and they'll sign a Man United academy player because he was a Man United academy player. I wouldn't class it as a measure of that academy's success, more its capacity.

I should have been clearer that I meant the British crop who come through at Man United. Pogba and Pique were also purchased as they were approaching a professional age and weren't 'let go'.

I mentioned Michael Keane further up as the one who has made the most of a career. Drinkwater, Heaton, King, Shawcross...I'm not sure anyone missed the boat of them. Solid pros and honest enough careers but none represented good value at any time in their career, as a prospective transfer target.

Maybe all this just means Man United are good at recognising a player's future ability level and cutting their losses at the right time. I'm not really concerned about that.

The overall point, prompted by our apparent interest in Lawrence, is that he would be an expensive risk, comes with baggage, isn't any more likely to deliver than a cheaper, well-scouted signing, and isn't going to improve. Unfortunately I feel this is true of the vast majority of Man United academy graduates, who are more expensive by default, are less likely to be have their feet on the ground due to the environment they developed within and no more likely to have above-average technical ability.

The sweeping statement wasn't to slur any of those players this applies to. It was to suggest they aren't attractive targets to Sheffield United and should be double scrutinised or avoided.
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You've both made some valid points.

I'm also not keen on Lawrence for Blades. Though as was mentioned, it could work if he was one of a few flair players that we could call on/try to extract the best from as a sub/rotation option.
 
Berlin Blade said:
Oh my god. MGW is literally 10x the player Lawrence is, and also a very different player. You feed him the ball in the final 3rd and he shows off and hits one from 35 yards or tries to take 6 men on. It’s worked about three times in the last 5 years and those are the YouTube highlights and that’s why people are suggesting signing him.

If we are talking about replacing MGW with someone it’s more like Diego jota or foden than tom fucking Lawrence. MGW would drop into midfield, DEMAND the ball, he would take it upon himself to grab the game by the scruff of the neck, and dictate the tempo of the game, if he didn’t get it, he would win it himself, then drive forward taking men on to take them out of the game, then 30 yards from goal, make the correct decision, laying it off or going himself. It was all about the team and never about him showing off, even though he had the techincal ability to do literally whatever he wanted, he was never interested in showing off to prove his individual talent. Everything he did was for the team; which as much as I’ve seen Lawrence, seems the exact opposite.

I’m not totally against the signing but only if he is one of three players to replace MGW.

Lawrence/Chong/Twine - that would be an adequate replacement for MGW, all three. None of these touch MGW, he’s so fucking good and you’ll see that when he’s at athletico or somewhere in Europe tearing it up. I feel like some united fans don’t quite understand just how much of a cheat code MGW was.

Also, people saying he is in some way a role model is fucking funny. Just because he’s about 30 doesn’t mean he’s a leader. Didn’t he drink drive once with three of Derby’s biggest influential players? Forcing a year ban, they could have probably done with them during the relegation run in.

He will come here because it’s local. We will offer him decent money. And it will be a free ride for him. If he wanted to rip it up he probably would have done it before now. This is exactly the signing we should be avoiding IMO unless it is part of a three pronged signing. If Lawrence is the MGW replacement we will fall an awful long way short IMO.
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I see your points and I agree MGW is class, we won't replace him with a like for like talent for sure, but I'd still be interested in Lawrence. He scored 11 goals and 5 assists last season, we could do with that in our side. Are we going to get better than Lawrence? I doubt it to be honest, that's if we are interested.

Yes he's had a past where he's done some silly things, that's not great, obviously. But professional footballers are in a strange world where they've got too much money, too much time, loads of pressure to deliver each week and I think it's a recipe for going off the rails at times. That doesn't excuse drink driving but I do think the aforementioned factors are lending themselves to footballers making bad decisions on occasions. He lost his mum around the same time from reading an article on him today, that couldn't have been easy either.

The other option we we go down the loan route and as I've said a few times we've signed more bad than good, MGW is the exception not the rule, the likes of Davies and Hourihane are far more commonplace and I'd not be bothered about either of those two coming back.
 
TRF on twitter mentioning our interest is more genuine than WBA's. Usually a more reliable source.
 
It’s not just wages with “free transfers” though is it? They all want pretty substantial signing on fees and then there’s the agent’s cut.

Some free transfers can end up
just as expensive as ones involving a transfer fee
 

robbiez666 said:
Can we match his wages though, that's the question.
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can we match the wages of a club in severe debt juat relegated to div one

I would hope so

where does this theory that we pay zero hours contracts on minimum wage come from

wish I was just on 10 k a week less than billy sharp
 
blade too long said:
can we match the wages of a club in severe debt juat relegated to div one

I would hope so

where does this theory that we pay zero hours contracts on minimum wage come from

wish I was just on 10 k a week less than billy sharp
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Contracts like his helped them to their financial difficulties😂 They also signed him for 6 or 7 million didn't they!

Also why would we match 20/30k (I don't know, maybe more) to pay this guy more than many other established/loyal/better players?
 
Derby fans suggesting his contract was over £30k a week. He'll not get that with us so its a case of is he chasing the money or does he want to come for the game time and stay in the area.
 
If we sign Lawrence, I think that would indicate the club expects Berge to be on his way out by the end of the window. Lawrence will get a good wage/contract wherever he ends up, and there is no way we are going to do that for someone who isn't going to be a regular starter.
 
brownblade said:
Contracts like his helped them to their financial difficulties😂 They also signed him for 6 or 7 million didn't they!

Also why would we match 20/30k (I don't know, maybe more) to pay this guy more than many other established/loyal/better players?
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we have no idea what hes on no more than we know what our players just out of the prem are on
but our wage bill is 50 per cent higher than derbys was according to both clubs last accounts

2023-2024 Derby County Salaries and Contracts

Capology | Football Salaries & Finances
capology.com capology.com
 
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