The 92 point myth

[WayneAllison]

Regardless of what anyone thought of the performances, you don’t get 92 points in a season by luck. We got them by being one of the most effectives sides in the division - it wasn’t pretty, but it secured us our biggest points tally I think we’ve ever had in this division. That absolutely deserves recognition.

It’s perfectly reasonable for folk to question the decision to allow Wilder to leave after the season we’ve just had. Personally, I’m doubtful Selles will better last season but I’m always willing to get behind a new regime and am excited to see where we go.

You can actually get 92 points by a lot of luck


That is actually possible

We weren’t a mid table team but if you watch any of the 20/30 games we ground out wins and asked a random person how many points we would get last season

No one would say 92 points


Big similarities with the Hecky season where we ground out results and look what happened the season after


Really you need a good performances and a game plan ethic

If you don’t then you have nothing to fall back on



CHIEFFFF

 

[AWetFlannel]

With Souttar, yes, absolutely.

With Anel and JLT, no, not at all.

You have to fit your tactic to your players and playing a high-risk strategy with mentally weak players will mean you don't achieve your targets. And we didn't.

Every person on this board could point out what the issue would be with trying to protect a lead with Anel and JLT, rather than go get another goal.

Why didn't we look to mitigate the extremely obvious flaw in our team?

So it is sustainable then, and was sustainable for us last season, but you're saying it wasn't without Souttar.

Didn't we go top of the league months after Souttar's injury playing that way? If our two rivals weren't both ridiculously consistent themselves (with better, more expensive squads) would we be questioning it?

You say that every person knew and that it was extremely obvious, but nobody was saying it when we were top. None of the neutral EFL pundits were saying it. Only blades fans with hindsight.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

We were remarkably consistent last season, both in our level of performance and our results, hence the 92 points.

We were obviously the better team in most games because we won most games. We played for fine margins and consistently found ourselves on the good side of them.

Winning games doesn't automatically make you the better team. If a team has 75% possession all match, 20 shots on goal, 13 shots on target but somehow don't score and the other team score with their one and only chance then that doesn't make the winning team the better team in that match. This is largely my point. Seperate the performances from the results. Just because you won doesn't mean you were good. By your reasoning Sunderland were the better team in the play off final because they won?

 

[Chazzer]

Apart from some lacklustre performances I think the biggest factor that influenced the owners' decision was Wilder blowing £10m of their money on Tom Cannon. They took that as an indication of his naivety in the transfer market (although Wilder would rightly point to the success of his signings last close season of Cooper, Burrows and Campbell). They were also probably not impressed by some of Wilder's end of match altercations resulting in costly fines.

 

[Rodley]

I'm assuming this is a fishing expedition as I cant see the point in trawling through the bones of last season when a decision has been made already off the back of it.

I shall swiftly walk past and concentrate on the new man and see what the transfer window and pre season brings

Forum has gone mad

 

[AWetFlannel]

Winning games doesn't automatically make you the better team. If a team has 75% possession all match, 20 shots on goal, 13 shots on target but somehow don't score and the other team score with their one and only chance then that doesn't make the winning team the better team in that match. This is largely my point. Seperate the performances from the results. Just because you won doesn't mean you were good. By your reasoning Sunderland were the better team in the play off final because they won?

I agree that winning games doesn't automatically make you the better team, but we were the better team in most our wins last season. That we would surrender some territory and possession in the second half when leading doesn't mean we played badly.

I think the PO final was an even game, their lad scored a screamer and the fine margins went their way.

Are you backing away from claims about consistency then and "not changing the way we play"? Presumably because it's a load of shite?

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Might be because its the same boring twaddle you must have posted 50 times since these rumours began. You've made your points over and over. You've made them countless times now. It's so boring and weird how much you're enjoying this.

I appreciate your point, I'm trying to open some debate without the standard closed minded answers. All I ever read is 92 points and what Wilder has done in the past. I've not read many people for Wilder staying who acknowledge the sub-par performances last season, which would have a huge baring on next season if he stayed and we kept playing the same way (not that anyone can say we will).

I'm happy to debate and hear arguments from both points of view, but I have found a lot of pro-Wilder arguments to be very narrow minded. I'm not trying to repeat myself or seek attention, I'm trying to open up reasonable debate factoring in everything. I'm not saying I'm right either. I was merely trying to open discussion with an alternative view looking at what might have happened if he had stayed.

 

[The Crab]

Has this club’s fanbase ever been more divided than it is today? This was predicted when Wilder was brought back, that’s when the schism started and it was blindingly obvious that it would eventually lead to this. A foolish, foolish move by the Prince.

But we are where we are and, at some point we are all going to have to come back together and become, once more, united. That will be the best thing for the club.

I don’t know when that’s going to happen. I expect the recriminations to continue to fly from both sides for a while yet. But I’m hopeful that it won’t take too long for the dust to settle, a bit of clearer thinking to emerge and the process of coming back together to begin.

Wilder has gone, and people need to begin to get over that at some stage, as hard as some will find it. Today, what matters most is the future. And let’s not forget that Selles will also go at some point because that’s what always happens. The one constant is Sheffield United and I hope that come the opening day of the season the vast majority of us will get behind the team regardless.

It’s a new dawn, starting today. We have no idea what it’s going to look like, but people have the choice to embrace it and move forwards or to carry on fighting yesterday’s fights. I know which one will ultimately be best for the club.

UTB

I don’t have the energy to fight yesterdays fights.

It’s been horrible on here lately, the fighting between ourselves, and I’ve been guilty of that a bit too so I’m sorry Booker4

Although, as we all have, I’ve seen plenty of play off disappointment before, the latest one felt different. It felt like one too many.

I’m pleased Selles has got the job as it’s the first guess I’ve ever got right! I see potential in him, he’s hopefully the future rather than the past.

But the arguing will return as it always does. Between that, and my health, I’ve never been closer to saying this.

I’m done

 

[Geordie Blade]

The disappointing thing was how our wheels fell off in the last 7 regular games. We rode our luck early on in the 1st play off game, if that shot had not hit the bar from Bristol City but went in, it could have been a different story. Bizarrely we had the opportunity to win the league and not get a single point from either Leeds or Burnley, wins against Oxford, Plymouth, Millwall and Blackburn would have seen us to 101 points. All 4 of those fixtures if you truly have Champions ability should have been won. 2 at home, 2 away too.

So we beat a side 6-0 on aggregate and your view is “if one of their shots had gone in, we might have lost”?

In that case, you have to say the same about the defeats. If we’d scored early against Burnley, we might have got automatic promotion.

It works both ways.

 

[Aston max]

Selles better be eleventy points clear, have 48 wins and have already worn out the badge on countless polo/sweatshirts by pounding his chest consistently by Christmas or the knives will be out

Hang on

 

[GrunkyPeep]

So it is sustainable then, and was sustainable for us last season, but you're saying it wasn't without Souttar.

Didn't we go top of the league months after Souttar's injury playing that way? If our two rivals weren't both ridiculously consistent themselves (with better, more expensive squads) would we be questioning it?

You say that every person knew and that it was extremely obvious, but nobody was saying it when we were top. None of the neutral EFL pundits were saying it. Only blades fans with hindsight.

If we were top, and then we fell to 3rd, that literally means that your tactic wasn't sustainable. If it was sustainable, we'd have sustained our position and been promoted.

Just looking at the first half points/goals/conceded total Vs 2nd half of season you can see that it's not sustainable right?

Surely you can understand that every metric of success getting noticeably worse in the 2nd half of the season is a sign that things got worse?

 

[Willglynning]

We were remarkably consistent last season, both in our level of performance and our results, hence the 92 points.

We were obviously the better team in most games because we won most games. We played for fine margins and consistently found ourselves on the good side of them.

We overperformed our expected points total by 18 points.

Most games last season were won and lost by very fine margins. You play that season again, with the same major variables and we could easily have finished 20 points worse off.

 

[LBA_Blade]

So we beat a side 6-0 on aggregate and your view is “if one of their shots had gone in, we might have lost”?

In that case, you have to say the same about the defeats. If we’d scored early against Burnley, we might have got automatic promotion.

It works both ways.

It’s the momentum of the game at that point it was 0-0 in front of a full house. Sometimes you make your own luck and after we were 1 up from there with them having 10 men they knew they had to chance it.

We scored early against Leeds in the home match but we tried to hold on and they did us over. However realistically the games against the mid to bottom half sides we should have done better

 

[FTPE]

We're classing the points he won now as a myth?
That's literally as factual as you can get.
Its like the Wilder haters are already making excuses for when the new guy doesn't get as many points next season.

 

[Railway Blade]

A fairly balanced view on how outsiders see the decision.

We are discussed in the first 15 mins.

 

[ThroughThinAndThinner]

Apart from some lacklustre performances I think the biggest factor that influenced the owners' decision was Wilder blowing £10m of their money on Tom Cannon. They took that as an indication of his naivety in the transfer market (although Wilder would rightly point to the success of his signings last close season of Cooper, Burrows and Campbell). They were also probably not impressed by some of Wilder's end of match altercations resulting in costly fines.

Always my biggest complaint with Wilder, give him money and he signs terribly, give him a tight budget and he works wonders.

Not saying the new owners will give Selles lots of money, but on the assumption we sell Vini, Peck, and Hamer there will be a healthy budget. Not sure if trust Wilder with that.

Football is a results business in an entertainment industry. If you're purely about results then last season was great, if you want to be excited going to games then it wasn't.

And did Wilder get found out, and struggle to find an answer? Bristol City aside, if argue yes. His second season in the prem teams worked us out and he had no answer. Towards the latter end of last season it felt very much DeJa Vu, with teams finding us out and wilder having no answer. Keeping Wilder would have been a gamble just as much as sacking him, the squad will likely be weaker next season, and if Wilders post-Jan playing style continued I doubt we'd get close to 92pts again.

Either way, he was sacked and we look to a replacement. Any managerial appointment is a gamble, Adkins and Slav should've been great appointments but were terrible. Wilder, Hecky, Wilson, all came with little excitement but delivered infinitely better seasons than the others who came with greater excitement.

Time will tell if it's a good decision, just as appointing Adkins did, just as keeping Wilder would have.

 

[robbiez666]

We were remarkably consistent last season, both in our level of performance and our results, hence the 92 points.

We were obviously the better team in most games because we won most games. We played for fine margins and consistently found ourselves on the good side of them.

Fair point, I'm terms of performance for the first half of the season, but February onwards?

 

[Carlton Blade]

All I've read pretty much everywhere since it was announced that Wilder has gone/was going is that the owners are mad to sack him because he got us to 92 points last season. The new manager allegedly won't get us to 92 points again as only Wilder could achieve this.

I'm going to call b/s on this myth.

We were inconsistent all season and (play offs aside), we only put in a decent performance over 90 minutes in a handful of matches. In the remainder we were either good half/bad half or poor altogther. We ground out results and relied heavily on luck. It wasn't good management or tactical nuance that won a lot of these games, it was luck. That luck ran out towards the end of the season.

In the last ten games of the season we won four, drew two and lost four. We only won two of our last seven league matches.

Wilder showed no sign of changing his methods.

To say we won't get 92 points again is arguably accurate as the odds are that Wilder himself wouldn't get 92 points again. There is no way that we could play another entire season again in this manner and expect to fluke our way to results through luck again. It's a miracle that we got that amount playing the way we did last season.

"But Wilder would change the way we play next season."

Really? Then why didn't he last season?

"He didn't have the players he needed to suit his tactics."

Then change the tactics to suit what you have and he had January to address this where he was backed by the owners, but he didn't.

I'm sick to death of reading about the 92 points without people acknowledging the poor form at the end of the season and the poor performances all season.

I can handle not getting to 92 points again next season if it means no more disjointed, inconsistent performances and no more square pegs in round holes. We have a far better chance of going up and staying up by playing well than we do by grinding out undeserved results playing crap football with central midfielders and strikers on the wings.

Other fans will only see the final league table and think we're mad. They didn't watch the crap football that we had to watch to get there. Just like some of our fans are judging Selles on results only. They don't tell the whole story and don't entirely define a manager.

Wilder wasn't "sacked" because he didn't get us promoted. He was "sacked" because of everything else.

If you're going to keep quoting 92 points then at least be honest and acknowledge how we got to 92 points and the poor performances and negative tactics throughout the season getting there that continued all the way to the last game of the season.

53 points, +24 gd in the first half
39 points, +5 gd in the 1nd half
Lost 6/7 v promoted teams
List 3 in a row with the league in hand

For all the good work done in finding playersto supplement the very strong core the team started with, there's a strong argument that the team got worse through the season and it's irrefutable that it folded in the biggest games.

As with anything, there's context. I'd rather he'd stayed and figured out a new coaching staff, embraced the data stuff, took on AI help with injuries but remained the figurehead, keeping the clubs identity closer to what it has been.

But there was a very strong argument that change was required

 

[Wizard]

I think Wilder did a great job last summer at rebuilding and reshaping the squad after a dreadful season.

• Got rid of players who weren't at the level and got talented but underperforming players like Souza back onside and contributing
• Managed us well through the summer and start of the season with a clear plan/vision for the future amidst the backdrop of a near absent ownership
• Successfully shifted us away from a back 5 to a back 4 for the first time since 15/16 showing a fresh approach and ability to coach a different system
• Signed some good quality players while bringing the average age down ensuring we could compete at the top end of the championship and also have a solid base to build from next year
• Sorted out contracts for some of our younger players ensuring the club has some saleable assets and control over their future
• Guided us through and injury crisis in the first half of the season with multiple games featuring mostly u21s on the bench and 2 season ending injuries for key players (Souttar & Arblaster) + Souza being out for long stretches
• Built a reliable defence that was the bedrock of our early season success after the flood of goals we conceded last year
• Brought through and nurtured our academy players seeing a major improvement in their game and ability to impact the first team (Brooks, Arblaster, Seriki, Peck, One)
• Made Brewster an actually useful squad player!

I understand the criticism for the playoff defeat but we cruised through the semis without fuss and were on top and were almost 2-0 up in the final inside 35 mins. We failed to recover from the VAR setback when the momentum shifted and the substitutions weren't great. But even then we were unlucky with BBD's injury, Hamer going off and ultimately Sunderland didn't creat much and 2 great finishes put then through.

There's also criticism over the mid season transfers but it's rare that you can sign your first choice players in Jan as clubs don't want to lose them so you're more dependent on whatever out of favour players you can get in on short term deals (BBD, Clarke, Holding, Choudhury) all fit this mould. They also all contributed and addressed key areas of weakness in the squad where we were lacking bodies which meant we could rotste and at worst had cover for different areas so we actually went into the playoffs near full strength.

The 3 losses in a row was the most disappointing part of the season for me and I thought he was wrong to go with an unchanged team but until that point we were right up there with Leeds & Burnley which was not a given when we ended last season (look at Luton & think back to us under Jokanovic). Making us comfortably the 3rd best side was no easy task.

I'm interested in the Selles appointment but it's sad to see Wilder leave and it's even more sad to see so many of our fans glad to see the back of a man who's done so much for this club

 

[HarryHaslam]

It seems to me that the Wilder hater cult are getting their excuses in early if it doesn't go well next season by undermining Wilder's achievements last season.

Spot on.

 

[GeorgeDonis1889]

We're classing the points he won now as a myth?
That's literally as factual as you can get.
Its like the Wilder haters are already making excuses for when the new guy doesn't get as many points next season.

Mate they don't even class us as finishing 3rd last season. We finished NOWHERE.

I think they've lost their minds.

 

[BlairBlade]

Apart from some lacklustre performances I think the biggest factor that influenced the owners' decision was Wilder blowing £10m of their money on Tom Cannon. They took that as an indication of his naivety in the transfer market (although Wilder would rightly point to the success of his signings last close season of Cooper, Burrows and Campbell). They were also probably not impressed by some of Wilder's end of match altercations resulting in costly fines.

I’m sure you are right.
I would have thought your last sentence referring to Wilder’s antics on and off the pitch were certainly taken in to account.
I can understand some of our supporters feel Wilder should have had another chance although you can also understand some reluctance on the part of our owners to give him huge sums to spend on players to aim for another 92 points.
Should Wilder have stayed, should he have got us promoted to the Premier League how many think Wilder would have been up to the job for that next season?
We would have needed, most likely, a new squad requiring a massive outlay, probably more than we have ever spent before, in the hope we might survive more than one season.
Again the question of giving him the funds for such major spending would also arise.

 

[HarryHaslam]

Wilder has gone, and people need to begin to get over that at some stage, as hard as some will find it.

Yes they do but right now it’s the Wilder haters who are not letting it drop and are insufferable, instead of sitting back with a big smile on their faces they are on here putting a right shift in over the last couple of days telling us how bad Wilder actually was, really trying to convince us all. And they are still going!!

He’s gone move on ffs and if anyone wants to say it’s sad and wish him the best or whatever let them, leave them to it, but we don’t need posters then talking utter bollocks about how shit he was over and over and over.

 

[Bradfordblade]

I'm interested in the Selles appointment but it's sad to see Wilder leave and it's even more sad to see so many of our fans glad to see the back of a man who's done so much for this club

Exactly this.

Crab is right too. Some of the squabbling on here has been unpleasant.

Some of the comments made by the anti - Wilder brigade have been bizarre. There are some fair criticisms that I agree with. The man isn't perfect. In the final analysis, Wilder should be seen as a club legend and should leave with our gratitude. The next few weeks and next season will be very interesting. Time now to thank Chris Wilder and get behind Selles and the team.

UTB

 

[Geordie Blade]

It’s the momentum of the game at that point it was 0-0 in front of a full house. Sometimes you make your own luck and after we were 1 up from there with them having 10 men they knew they had to chance it.

We scored early against Leeds in the home match but we tried to hold on and they did us over. However realistically the games against the mid to bottom half sides we should have done better

Bristol City went 1-0 up against us in the league at their place and we still beat them.

It works both ways.

 

[Bladesince59]

All I've read pretty much everywhere since it was announced that Wilder has gone/was going is that the owners are mad to sack him because he got us to 92 points last season. The new manager allegedly won't get us to 92 points again as only Wilder could achieve this.

I'm going to call b/s on this myth.

We were inconsistent all season and (play offs aside), we only put in a decent performance over 90 minutes in a handful of matches. In the remainder we were either good half/bad half or poor altogther. We ground out results and relied heavily on luck. It wasn't good management or tactical nuance that won a lot of these games, it was luck. That luck ran out towards the end of the season.

In the last ten games of the season we won four, drew two and lost four. We only won two of our last seven league matches.

Wilder showed no sign of changing his methods.

To say we won't get 92 points again is arguably accurate as the odds are that Wilder himself wouldn't get 92 points again. There is no way that we could play another entire season again in this manner and expect to fluke our way to results through luck again. It's a miracle that we got that amount playing the way we did last season.

"But Wilder would change the way we play next season."

Really? Then why didn't he last season?

"He didn't have the players he needed to suit his tactics."

Then change the tactics to suit what you have and he had January to address this where he was backed by the owners, but he didn't.

I'm sick to death of reading about the 92 points without people acknowledging the poor form at the end of the season and the poor performances all season.

I can handle not getting to 92 points again next season if it means no more disjointed, inconsistent performances and no more square pegs in round holes. We have a far better chance of going up and staying up by playing well than we do by grinding out undeserved results playing crap football with central midfielders and strikers on the wings.

Other fans will only see the final league table and think we're mad. They didn't watch the crap football that we had to watch to get there. Just like some of our fans are judging Selles on results only. They don't tell the whole story and don't entirely define a manager.

Wilder wasn't "sacked" because he didn't get us promoted. He was "sacked" because of everything else.

If you're going to keep quoting 92 points then at least be honest and acknowledge how we got to 92 points and the poor performances and negative tactics throughout the season getting there that continued all the way to the last game of the season.

Got it absolutely spot on for me. Our "luck" ran out 8 games from the end. We played the second half at Wembley in the same way as the previous 30 games and it was down to Wilder and it was shit. Wilder was never going to change anything - he had enough opportunities. "It's my way or no way" fucks me right off.

 

[LBA_Blade]

Bristol City went 1-0 up against us in the league at their place and we still beat them.

It works both ways.

You’re not wrong, but a bit of a difference when there was approx 8,000 more fans in the stadium with a place at Wembley at stake. I still think we would have won the overall tie with the right mentality however even that game in the league it took an 90+8 winner.

 

[Alfiesdad]

Anomalies and now myths.
The anti Wilder camp have their victory but it's clearly not enough, they need to rewrite history.
This constant banging on, thread after thread trying to minimise his succeses just weakens your arguments.
There's no need to try and bludgeon everybody else into submission to think the way do when they've seen things with their own eyes and made their own minds up.
I've accepted his departure and I'll move forward with an open mind about what happens next with our club
What I can't accept is this desperate justification from a minority of professional fans.
Give your arrogance and conceit a rest.

 

[nopigfansintown]

We're classing the points he won now as a myth?
That's literally as factual as you can get.
Its like the Wilder haters are already making excuses for when the new guy doesn't get as many points next season.

That's the whole agenda. Getting the excuses in early. They have so little faith in their convictions.

Personally I expected us to win the league this season under Wilder and fully expect the new man to do the same.

Wilder has left immense foundations to build on with Campbell, O'Hare, Burrows, Seriki, Peck, Cooper, and T Davies and Arblaster now available etc. They are already there, developed and ready to go. The new guy has an infinitely better hand than Wilder had when we were mid takeover with little money in August with another advantageous summer window to build on Wilder's fantastic work last summer


The approach of these posters is a bit cowardly tbh. Beating our position/points total last season shouldn't be too difficult given the above. They should be incredibly confident we'll do it rather than making these lame excuses.

 

[raul]

Line them all up outside the Banner, bend em over and get Widz and Wit to give em all a good old Bishop Brennan.