Pre-Match Police Issues - Bit of an Update

[sirchris]

Strange when you come out of Sheffield Arena after a concert Supertram have trams and staff waiting to move a few thousand people back to the city centre and the whole operation goes like clockwork with no Police present. Makes you wonder dunnit.

not been to many concerts where there was a dew thousand dickheads trying to kick the shit out of each other to be fair

 

[sirchris]

ill put me tin hat on for this ! I wasn't there so can't judge whether the police cocked up or not ,however some of our fans (and other teams fans)need to take responsibility for how matches are policed.
Out of the 9 matches so far this season there have been violent clashes with rival fans at at least 4 of them. I'm fairly confident that during these incidents kids and innocent non violent fans were present , attacked ,or at least scared to death as a result of groups of thugs throwing bottles, lighting flares and generally trying to beat the shit out of each other.
Sadly we reap what we sow and that behaviour causes a ripple and dictates how a match is policed.
yes it does sound like mistakes were made and I have no doubt will happen again but ffs guys let some of our lot bear the brunt of that responsibility , stop acting like twats and bloody behave.

 

[Davie Blade]

Not got time to go through 8 pages so sorry if someone else has made same point..

Surely SWFC have electronic counters on there turnstile entrances and must have known 500 to 1000 had not entered the ground and were not in their seats, blindingly obvious if you look through the control room window.

A real smell of a cover up here.
Surely not at Hillsboro AGAIN

 

[GodricBlade]

ill put me tin hat on for this ! I wasn't there so can't judge whether the police cocked up or not ,however some of our fans (and other teams fans)need to take responsibility for how matches are policed.
Out of the 9 matches so far this season there have been violent clashes with rival fans at at least 4 of them. I'm fairly confident that during these incidents kids and innocent non violent fans were present , attacked ,or at least scared to death as a result of groups of thugs throwing bottles, lighting flares and generally trying to beat the shit out of each other.
Sadly we reap what we sow and that behaviour causes a ripple and dictates how a match is policed.
yes it does sound like mistakes were made and I have no doubt will happen again but ffs guys let some of our lot bear the brunt of that responsibility , stop acting like twats and bloody behave.

Keep that tin hat on! You weren't there - so it's easy to make generic comment about the small % all clubs have that we'd rather not have, potentially causing problems for everyone else. Certainly I don't see many on here defending what happened on London Road - I certainly don't.
But after being in the Bankers from 10.30 on Sunday, then stuck on the tram, walking to the sty & waiting for some feckin turnstiles to be opened - I didn't see 1 fracas/scuffle/scrap. And it wasn't only Blades caught up in the tram/delay debacle either as a few wendy fans were stood with us. No-one got any grief - just a bit of banter as you'd expect & hope for. Nor did I see any bother after the match when the majority of Blades were held back again because of fighting elsewhere, I believe.
Maybe those who wanted a scrap were getting one - the rest of us just wanted to get back home or to the local to celebrate.
The point being made here is exactly the one you use 3 words to describe - mistakes were made. And whilst we have got to accept that the small % might have an effect on the way we're all handled, that doesn't mean the by definition large % can be treated like animals & just accept it.
Up The Blades!

 

[Sean Thornton]

not been to many concerts where there was a dew thousand dickheads trying to kick the shit out of each other to be fair

"Few thousand"

 

[Addison]

I'm not deliberately ignoring anything. I was already in the stadium when this was happening, and therefore can't comment on whether there were elements causing trouble on said trams. My point was a wider one at the fact that police have to be overly cautious based upon a history of violence from a significant minority on both sides.

Well you've got me to make my first post on this site after a long time viewing. I had to respond to the rubbish you seem to be blathering on about in this thread. All clubs have a hooligan element so why are other police forces capable of policing matches significantly better than SYP? You were already in the stadium, well done for that. I wasn't. I was kettled by an incompetent police force that deliberately made me and around 7/800 others miss the first 20 minutes of the game.

I shouldn't in this day and age be forced onto a packed tram being told this was only one I could get, dehydrate for 25 minutes and then become increasingly concerned for the welfare of a young pregnant women who was close to passing out. We were treated like animals and have been for the last 40 years by SYP. What crimes did we commit? none other than singing loudly in support of our team. Sean Thornton was also held back as was Glyn Hodges Left foot who have both reported accurately what happened, yet you seem obsessed with going on about fan trouble. You've fallen into the establishment trap of all things that go wrong at football matches must be as a result of violence. Remember the 96? The simple fact is SYP lost control of the situation as they have been doing for years and tried to blame it all on an emergency door being opened.

There has hardly been any media coverage as its not newsworthy. Fan trouble gets them interested but not fans basic rights being infringed. Maybe if the poor woman laid out on the side of the road, because she fainted on the first tram, had passed away the local hacks would have got their back sides into gear and reported facts, not the usual fiction they come up with.

 

[grafikhaus]

Turnstiles at Leppings Lane not working efficiently.
SYP and SWFC absolve themselves from any responsibility.
Sound familiar?

Cynic! Haven't you read where a 'SWFC spokesman' said:
“Supporter safety at our stadium on match days remains paramount and this was reflected in a successful operation working hand in hand with the relevant authorities before, during and after the derby match.”

A politician couldn't have been more dishonest.

ill put me tin hat on for this ! I wasn't there so can't judge whether the police cocked up or not ,however some of our fans (and other teams fans)need to take responsibility for how matches are policed.
Out of the 9 matches so far this season there have been violent clashes with rival fans at at least 4 of them. I'm fairly confident that during these incidents kids and innocent non violent fans were present , attacked ,or at least scared to death as a result of groups of thugs throwing bottles, lighting flares and generally trying to beat the shit out of each other.
Sadly we reap what we sow and that behaviour causes a ripple and dictates how a match is policed.
yes it does sound like mistakes were made and I have no doubt will happen again but ffs guys let some of our lot bear the brunt of that responsibility , stop acting like twats and bloody behave.

All I've seen is a line of thugs waving riot sticks in the faces of supporters they've deliberately made to miss the first 20 minues of a very expensive match.

 

[Sean Thornton]

ill put me tin hat on for this ! I wasn't there so can't judge whether the police cocked up or not ,however some of our fans (and other teams fans)need to take responsibility for how matches are policed.
Out of the 9 matches so far this season there have been violent clashes with rival fans at at least 4 of them. I'm fairly confident that during these incidents kids and innocent non violent fans were present , attacked ,or at least scared to death as a result of groups of thugs throwing bottles, lighting flares and generally trying to beat the shit out of each other.
Sadly we reap what we sow and that behaviour causes a ripple and dictates how a match is policed.
yes it does sound like mistakes were made and I have no doubt will happen again but ffs guys let some of our lot bear the brunt of that responsibility , stop acting like twats and bloody behave.

It would be difficult to argue about much of that but how do you feel about the Police pushing out a version of events that is at odds with anyone who was there and has posted about it? I've seen no one who was involved back up the official "version" of SYP.

Responsibility needs taking by everyone.

Then Wendy try - unsuccessfully - to say how they did x y and z without mentioning that the fans being outside with only one turnstiles open is totally at odds with their statement. That's certainly nothing to do with any hooliganism.

 

[Davalon]

It's no coincidence that a significant number of Sheffield citizens don't trust the hierarchy of SYP, or SCC for that matter. As for SWFC complicity with this crap....

We all deserve better living here than what we've had, and still got.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

ill put me tin hat on for this ! I wasn't there so can't judge whether the police cocked up or not ,however some of our fans (and other teams fans)need to take responsibility for how matches are policed.
Out of the 9 matches so far this season there have been violent clashes with rival fans at at least 4 of them. I'm fairly confident that during these incidents kids and innocent non violent fans were present , attacked ,or at least scared to death as a result of groups of thugs throwing bottles, lighting flares and generally trying to beat the shit out of each other.
Sadly we reap what we sow and that behaviour causes a ripple and dictates how a match is policed.
yes it does sound like mistakes were made and I have no doubt will happen again but ffs guys let some of our lot bear the brunt of that responsibility , stop acting like twats and bloody behave.

Not condoning any violent behaviour or the known dickheads we and other clubs have following them, however this type of generic policing and attitude towards football supporters attending matches is a real issue. Indeed that very thing was at the root of 96 Liverpool fans losing their lives and the cover up that subsequently happened. Known hooligan elements and trouble-makers being there, fans attending under the influence and turning up late didn't excuse what SYP and SWFC did back then and can't justify mistakes made on Sunday.

And yes, our twats need to learn to behave or not attend.

 

[I should coco]

I wasn't there and have a slightly different view.

I can understand why the police want to try and control large groups of fans and also why at times, they may err on the side of caution. So holding up a large group of 'potentially' troublesome fans could be understood.

What is not acceptable is the lying. After everything that came out in the Hillsborough Enquiry, you might think SYP would understand the importance of the truth up front. They obviously don't exemplified by their 'success' tweets.

96 lives lost, years of cover ups and lies and they haven't learned a thing. Not one thing. If the only task that the useless PCC does is to bring this to light, then some good may come. Don't hold your breath though.

As for SWFC and 'safety being paramount ' you really couldn't make it up. If they gave one shiny shit about away fan safety, they would have closed that end years ago.

 

[ChrisBlade]

I was also among the ones in the second or third tram. It took ages and was incredibly poorly handled. All along I have been thinking that the only thing that prevented a far worse situation from developing was John Fleck's early goal. That kind of drew the sting of frustration quite a lot. If they'd happened to score first, the police's incompetent and extremely non-communicative actions would have inflamed things a lot more. There was a point at around ten minutes into the match. The police were blocking the road, but all trams had emptied out. I was bored, so climbed on somebody's garden wall. That allowed me to look beyond our fans and the row of horses and coppers. I literally looked at a stretch of road of at least 400 yards or so with basically not a soul on it. It would have been 13.25 by then. Ffs, except for the large group held back, every other fucker was in the ground by then. Who exactly were they protecting then from what at this point? The feeling I got was that the kettle after everybody had got off the trams, way after kick-off, seemed purely a vindictive response to some people (maybe 30) forcing open the tram doors, trying to make their own way.

At the turnstiles: We heard Clark score which again brightened the mood and again helped preventing things from turning sour. There initially was only 1 turnstile. Later I saw 2 open ones, never more, but I probably was among the first third of that contingent to get in.

As to Foody, we deliberately set off at 11.45 from Cathedral but were no longer allowed on the regular trams by police who forced us to go up the road because the Banker's Draft had just emptied out and they stated there would be fast non-stop trams. The rest, as they say, is history... I find your post highly annoying to be honest, as I am neurotic to not miss a single minute of football and only once before missed ten minutes of any match ever. Back then, as yesterday, the reason was incompetence - as I'd been told the old season cards would still work and they did not so I and a million others had to queue for replacement paper tickets to get into that first match of the season at Bramall Lane against Shrewsbury. Then as Sunday we scored early, McAllister I believe. Luckily, my 70 minutes of football allowed me to see further goals on Sunday...

So no. I am not even sure yours is a point worth making. But if it is, Sunday's events were not the time and place to tag it onto.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

ill put me tin hat on for this ! I wasn't there so can't judge whether the police cocked up or not ,however some of our fans (and other teams fans)need to take responsibility for how matches are policed.
Out of the 9 matches so far this season there have been violent clashes with rival fans at at least 4 of them. I'm fairly confident that during these incidents kids and innocent non violent fans were present , attacked ,or at least scared to death as a result of groups of thugs throwing bottles, lighting flares and generally trying to beat the shit out of each other.
Sadly we reap what we sow and that behaviour causes a ripple and dictates how a match is policed.
yes it does sound like mistakes were made and I have no doubt will happen again but ffs guys let some of our lot bear the brunt of that responsibility , stop acting like twats and bloody behave.

Keep that tin hat on for a while! Firstly, from all the personal and eye-witness accounts that have been retold here it is clear that there was no hooligan element amongst a group of fans that were legitimately making their way to the ground in a reasonable manner - in fact on transport that SYP had exclusive control over. These were the fans who were then penalised, according to them, because of a hooligan element at Sheffield Wednesday. If there really were trouble causes blocking the way, then why weren't they carted off in vans? If there weren't, then why assume that the two sets of fans can't be within sight of each other without WWIII breaking out? And 20 minutes after kick off, just how many Wednesdayites were not in the ground? In other words, it's total bullshit.
Secondly, when there is trouble, like the trouble you mentioned, the police don't seem to deal with it. At that moment they have the trouble makers causing trouble, but somehow nothing is done - it's far easier for them to send in battallions of troops to heard non-trouble makers in the name of prevention. It's a cop out.
Every incident is different, but on this occasion there doesn't seem to have been any problem that the police had to deal with.
I'll say it again, would you defend the police for treating all, let's say, muslims as potential terrorists on the basis that there has been trouble with muslim terrorists? We all want the hooligans and knobsticks to be taken out of football, but the establishment doesn't seem to be doing that, it has become acceptable for them to just "prevent" trouble by targeting any and every fan.

 

[sirchris]

Keep that tin hat on for a while! Firstly, from all the personal and eye-witness accounts that have been retold here it is clear that there was no hooligan element amongst a group of fans that were legitimately making their way to the ground in a reasonable manner - in fact on transport that SYP had exclusive control over. These were the fans who were then penalised, according to them, because of a hooligan element at Sheffield Wednesday. If there really were trouble causes blocking the way, then why weren't they carted off in vans? If there weren't, then why assume that the two sets of fans can't be within sight of each other without WWIII breaking out? And 20 minutes after kick off, just how many Wednesdayites were not in the ground? In other words, it's total bullshit.
Secondly, when there is trouble, like the trouble you mentioned, the police don't seem to deal with it. At that moment they have the trouble makers causing trouble, but somehow nothing is done - it's far easier for them to send in battallions of troops to heard non-trouble makers in the name of prevention. It's a cop out.
Every incident is different, but on this occasion there doesn't seem to have been any problem that the police had to deal with.
I'll say it again, would you defend the police for treating all, let's say, muslims as potential terrorists on the basis that there has been trouble with muslim terrorists? We all want the hooligans and knobsticks to be taken out of football, but the establishment doesn't seem to be doing that, it has become acceptable for them to just "prevent" trouble by targeting any and every fan.

I think you missed the point I was making hamburg, previous issues effect how big matches are policed , had there not been violence at the previous games then maybe Sundays debacle wouldn't have happened. I am not for one minute suggesting the fans who were held on the tram caused any bother .

 

[sirchris]

Keep that tin hat on! You weren't there - so it's easy to make generic comment about the small % all clubs have that we'd rather not have, potentially causing problems for everyone else. Certainly I don't see many on here defending what happened on London Road - I certainly don't.
But after being in the Bankers from 10.30 on Sunday, then stuck on the tram, walking to the sty & waiting for some feckin turnstiles to be opened - I didn't see 1 fracas/scuffle/scrap. And it wasn't only Blades caught up in the tram/delay debacle either as a few wendy fans were stood with us. No-one got any grief - just a bit of banter as you'd expect & hope for. Nor did I see any bother after the match when the majority of Blades were held back again because of fighting elsewhere, I believe.
Maybe those who wanted a scrap were getting one - the rest of us just wanted to get back home or to the local to celebrate.
The point being made here is exactly the one you use 3 words to describe - mistakes were made. And whilst we have got to accept that the small % might have an effect on the way we're all handled, that doesn't mean the by definition large % can be treated like animals & just accept it.
Up The Blades!

no I agree but my point is that the % of trouble are also in part responsible for how the rest of us are policed surely you see that?
I am not sticking up for how the match was policed just pointing out its part of a bigger picture that we are thankfully kept away from.
im sure police would love every potential trouble causer to have twat tattooed on their foreheads but unfortunately they don't so I would guess its easier to be firm with everyone so they are in no doubt what needs to happen.

 

[sirchris]

Keep that tin hat on for a while! Firstly, from all the personal and eye-witness accounts that have been retold here it is clear that there was no hooligan element amongst a group of fans that were legitimately making their way to the ground in a reasonable manner - in fact on transport that SYP had exclusive control over. These were the fans who were then penalised, according to them, because of a hooligan element at Sheffield Wednesday. If there really were trouble causes blocking the way, then why weren't they carted off in vans? If there weren't, then why assume that the two sets of fans can't be within sight of each other without WWIII breaking out? And 20 minutes after kick off, just how many Wednesdayites were not in the ground? In other words, it's total bullshit.
Secondly, when there is trouble, like the trouble you mentioned, the police don't seem to deal with it. At that moment they have the trouble makers causing trouble, but somehow nothing is done - it's far easier for them to send in battallions of troops to heard non-trouble makers in the name of prevention. It's a cop out.
Every incident is different, but on this occasion there doesn't seem to have been any problem that the police had to deal with.
I'll say it again, would you defend the police for treating all, let's say, muslims as potential terrorists on the basis that there has been trouble with muslim terrorists? We all want the hooligans and knobsticks to be taken out of football, but the establishment doesn't seem to be doing that, it has become acceptable for them to just "prevent" trouble by targeting any and every fan.

and I'm a season ticket holder have been for many years so I understand how it works and how people behave I just chose not to go to Hillsborough.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I think you missed the point I was making hamburg, previous issues effect how big matches are policed , had there not been violence at the previous games then maybe Sundays debacle wouldn't have happened. I am not for one minute suggesting the fans who were held on the tram caused any bother .

I'm not missing the point at all. The fact remains that it is somehow acceptable for the police to consider football fans guilty by association. That is not acceptable in any other situation - except perhaps speed limits, but that's a whole other thread. Depriving hundreds of fans of the first half hour of a match they have paid to see on the basis that some twats in Middlesborough were being twatish is not acceptable. They should have nabbed the twats in Middlesborough.
Out of interest, did you read the whole thread before commenting?

 

[him behind you]

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/steel...nd-to-fan-delays-at-away-turnstiles-1-8775470

Thanks Danny. Looking forward to the report on policing and personal abuse of the players on arrival at the ground now. Would also be interested whether anyone has asked SWFC about reports of a member of their staff reporting a fan for some comment to Billy Sharp about his poor son and the club giving said fan a lifetime ban.....good on em if true.

 

[robbiez666]

I think the problem here is SYP. Yes, the fact a small minority of our fans have caused problems over the last couple of years will mean we're treated less like reasonable grown adults. Fair enough. However, SYP obviously messed up. If they said something along the lines of "we waned to prevent any trouble. We erred too much on the side of caution and would have done things differently in hindsight. Apologies to those fans affected. We're trying to do a job in difficult circumstances and will learn from our mistakes" then would there be any of this?

 

[him behind you]

I wasn't there and have a slightly different view.

I can understand why the police want to try and control large groups of fans and also why at times, they may err on the side of caution. So holding up a large group of 'potentially' troublesome fans could be understood.

What is not acceptable is the lying. After everything that came out in the Hillsborough Enquiry, you might think SYP would understand the importance of the truth up front. They obviously don't exemplified by their 'success' tweets.

96 lives lost, years of cover ups and lies and they haven't learned a thing. Not one thing. If the only task that the useless PCC does is to bring this to light, then some good may come. Don't hold your breath though.

As for SWFC and 'safety being paramount ' you really couldn't make it up. If they gave one shiny shit about away fan safety, they would have closed that end years ago.

You make a great point mate. Keeping large groups apart to stop trouble is absolutely acceptable. But they need to simply admit that they fooked up by overloading trams and not informing SWFC what was happening so that they could manage the turnstile issue.

 

[him behind you]

I think the problem here is SYP. Yes, the fact a small minority of our fans have caused problems over the last couple of years will mean we're treated less like reasonable grown adults. Fair enough. However, SYP obviously messed up. If they said something along the lines of "we waned to prevent any trouble. We erred too much on the side of caution and would have done things differently in hindsight. Apologies to those fans affected. We're trying to do a job in difficult circumstances and will learn from our mistakes" then would there be any of this?

Worth a hundred likes Robbie. Hit the nail on the head.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Keeping large groups apart to stop trouble is absolutely acceptable.

How is it - when there doesn't appear to be a second "large group" and the members of the first large group have not shown any intention to cause trouble? As long as we accept that the police are allowed to do this then things like this will happen - because we can't say "do it, but only in a way that we have decided is alright". They will decide what is "alright".
I accept that they need to police these events, that they need to try and control the situation because there are trouble makers around, but this herding and kettling was debunked as a valid method a long time ago. It belongs in the 70s / early 80s, where admittedly fans did behave generally badly.
There was a pregnant woman on the tram, ffs - times have changed. Policing apparently hasn't.

 

[Jonboy60]

I'm assuming that on Sunday when the pigs play the filth, all the away fans will be held Up at the top of Halifax rd.
As a set of fans non are more moronic than that lot surely. Or is it just blade fans.
One things for sure, if SYP use that tactic on Sunday, their lot may not be so accommodating.

 

[him behind you]

How is it - when there doesn't appear to be a second "large group" and the members of the first large group have not shown any intention to cause trouble? As long as we accept that the police are allowed to do this then things like this will happen - because we can't say "do it, but only in a way that we have decided is alright". They will decide what is "alright".
I accept that they need to police these events, that they need to try and control the situation because there are trouble makers around, but this herding and kettling was debunked as a valid method a long time ago. It belongs in the 70s / early 80s, where admittedly fans did behave generally badly.
There was a pregnant woman on the tram, ffs - times have changed. Policing apparently hasn't.

From what I saw Hamburg, there was still a large group of Wendy fans hanging around sty corner when we went past at around 12.45. Whether or not they, or the blades on the trams were looking for trouble, I can understand the police action to keep them apart. All im trying to say is that I believe policing should be about removing the risk rather than punishing the crime so I have no problem in the action taken to reduce the risk BUT it has to be measured. What IMO was wrong was that SYP caused the problem through badly planned, I'll thought out actions. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

From what I saw Hamburg, there was still a large group of Wendy fans hanging around sty corner when we went past at around 12.45. Whether or not they, or the blades on the trams were looking for trouble, I can understand the police action to keep them apart. All im trying to say is that I believe policing should be about removing the risk rather than punishing the crime so I have no problem in the action taken to reduce the risk BUT it has to be measured. What IMO was wrong was that SYP caused the problem through badly planned, I'll thought out actions. Hope this makes sense.

It does make sense, I just don't believe it works anymore. I know there are trouble makers, but they aren't a patch on the 70s/80s hooligan and there aren't many of them. There has to be a different approach. The police have to start listening to modern ideas. At one time it was thought that you had to cage people into the stands or it wouldn't be possible to get through 90 minutes of football. It's not just them, I know, the courts have to stop slapping wrists.

 

[ChrisBlade]

Having been on that tram, and having spent the morning from ten onwards in a boisterous but non-violent city-centre, let me assure you that this police action was way over the top, non-communicative, borderline abrasive and while we DO have idiots, I came away from the match very very proud.

We conducted ourselves perfectly on the pitch, as fans in the ground AND in that tram and at the roadblock when all of us realized we were going to miss a large chunk of what was shaping up to be a historic match even then (imagine being 2-0 up and you are worse off at that stage than had you stayed in a pub because they frog march you in myopic progress down an empty road!!).

I for one was proud of 500 people controlling their anger on the off chance that somewhere up the road either something shitty was happening or at least someone somewhere at SYP had a bigger plan.

The later turnstile fuck up only rubbed salt into wounds, but okay, they are SWFC so I don't blame them that much.

It rankles with me that I have yet to read of any actual trouble anywhere near Hillsborough in the time between 12.00 and 13.30. Only for those batoned chancers to now claim they policed it spot on because 32,500 people never clashed and 500 random people who also would not have clashed were held back without a single explanation. We did nothing wrong there. And I for one am proud of that.

 

[him behind you]

It does make sense, I just don't believe it works anymore. I know there are trouble makers, but they aren't a patch on the 70s/80s hooligan and there aren't many of them. There has to be a different approach. The police have to start listening to modern ideas. At one time it was thought that you had to cage people into the stands or it wouldn't be possible to get through 90 minutes of football. It's not just them, I know, the courts have to stop slapping wrists.

Agreed mate, and good point about things needing to change. In fairness, and I'm not proud about this, but I was involved in the 70s ad 80s and am maybe basing my thoughts on how it was then.

 

[him behind you]

Having been on that tram, and having spent the morning from ten onwards in a boisterous but non-violent city-centre, let me assure you that this police action was way over the top, non-communicative, borderline abrasive and while we DO have idiots, I came away from the match very very proud.

We conducted ourselves perfectly on the pitch, as fans in the ground AND in that tram and at the roadblock when all of us realized we were going to miss a large chunk of what was shaping up to be a historic match even then (imagine being 2-0 up and you are worse off at that stage than had you stayed in a pub because they frog march you in myopic progress down an empty road!!).

I for one was proud of 500 people controlling their anger on the off chance that somewhere up the road either something shitty was happening or at least someone somewhere at SYP had a bigger plan.

The later turnstile fuck up only rubbed salt into wounds, but okay, they are SWFC so I don't blame them that much.

It rankles with me that I have yet to read of any actual trouble anywhere near Hillsborough in the time between 12.00 and 13.30. Only for those batoned chancers to now claim they policed it spot on because 32,500 people never clashed and 500 random people who also would not have clashed were held back without a single explanation. We did nothing wrong there. And I for one am proud of that.

We need a multiple like button.

 

[sirchris]

It would be difficult to argue about much of that but how do you feel about the Police pushing out a version of events that is at odds with anyone who was there and has posted about it? I've seen no one who was involved back up the official "version" of SYP.

Responsibility needs taking by everyone.

Then Wendy try - unsuccessfully - to say how they did x y and z without mentioning that the fans being outside with only one turnstiles open is totally at odds with their statement. That's certainly nothing to do with any hooliganism.

I'm not missing the point at all. The fact remains that it is somehow acceptable for the police to consider football fans guilty by association. That is not acceptable in any other situation - except perhaps speed limits, but that's a whole other thread. Depriving hundreds of fans of the first half hour of a match they have paid to see on the basis that some twats in Middlesborough were being twatish is not acceptable. They should have nabbed the twats in Middlesborough.
Out of interest, did you read the whole thread before commenting?

did you read mine?
we will agree to disagree both opinions equally valid and would take too long to debate this issue properly so ill sign off at that with a big grin on my face looking down at the rest of the championship utb

 

[Hamburg Blade]

did you read mine?
we will agree to disagree both opinions equally valid and would take too long to debate this issue properly so ill sign off at that with a big grin on my face looking down at the rest of the championship utb

So the answer to my question was no, you didn't. You know I read yours because I responded to your points. Both opinions are not equally valid. You've been clear that yours is:

im sure police would love every potential trouble causer to have twat tattooed on their foreheads but unfortunately they don't so I would guess its easier to be firm with everyone so they are in no doubt what needs to happen.

I'm sure you're aware of the legal principle of "being treated as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law". Your opinion flies in the face of this. Yes,the police have powers that trancend this, which is necessary to make arrests and even stop and search/question someone, but the line between acceptable and unacceptable policing is very thin. We lost "policing by consent" some time ago - but the longer people accept being treated as a criminal because anyone could be a criminal, the longer SYP will feel justified herding people and preventing people from going about their lawful, peaceful business.