Play Off Format

[Nick Jansky]

I fully agree on direct to Wembley. There's not enough advantage to finishing third at present.

There’s more advantage than there used to be when it was a straight two up two down. I’m much more interested in a tweak of the playoffs giving a promoted side a better chance of staying up.

 

[skegblade]

Before we kick a ball in our 10th Play off campaign I think the format could do with a rejig so there is some benefit given to finishing higher and over the season been the 3rd most attractive side in the league, if we win next week we will have won 94 points (6 off my prediction of 100) and yet have to share the same lottery as the shit that finishes 6th 20 points behind.

My suggestion to the EFL.

3rd Place - Direct to Wembley.

4th v 7th 1 off match
5th v 6th 1 off match

Winner of said ties play over to legs to face 3rd at Wembley

The rules are blatantly clear before the season starts, here the same thing on different forums every league every year

 

[Pollingtonblade]

The rules are blatantly clear before the season starts, here the same thing on different forums every league every year

Are they? Oh I didn't know.

Get thread deleted for discussing a potential idea.

 

[mancunianblade]

You can't get rid of the playoffs, they're a fantastic end to the season.
The added benefit is that it adds interest to the last stages of season for quite a few teams.

Read somewhere only a week or two ago that every team in the championship could still get either relegated or promoted

 

[mancunianblade]

There’s more advantage than there used to be when it was a straight two up two down. I’m much more interested in a tweak of the playoffs giving a promoted side a better chance of staying up.

This idea works well almost everywhere I just think we have so much money in the PL ,

I hate the idea that a team could spend £££££s finish 3rd bottom and smash a team from the championship at Wembley to stay up and then a team who has performed well all season gets kept down.

 

[ormester]

Before we kick a ball in our 10th Play off campaign I think the format could do with a rejig so there is some benefit given to finishing higher and over the season been the 3rd most attractive side in the league, if we win next week we will have won 94 points (6 off my prediction of 100) and yet have to share the same lottery as the shit that finishes 6th 20 points behind.

My suggestion to the EFL.

3rd Place - Direct to Wembley.

4th v 7th 1 off match
5th v 6th 1 off match

Winner of said ties play over to legs to face 3rd at Wembley

It should be like this i

 

[Nick Jansky]

This idea works well almost everywhere I just think we have so much money in the PL ,

I hate the idea that a team could spend £££££s finish 3rd bottom and smash a team from the championship at Wembley to stay up and then a team who has performed well all season gets kept down.

There isn’t a perfect system, is there?

I’m just thinking that if, as is possible, we finish 3rd bottom in the PL next season I would love a one off game with a Championship club with the chance of staying up. We would be at a low ebb having been dicked all season, the Championship club might have winning momentum. So it wouldn’t necessarily be a forgone conclusion.

The alternative is only having a gnat’s cock hair of a chance of ever becoming established up there with the way things are.

 

[The Bear]

I wouldn’t mind a broadly similar format to the Scottish one. Bottom two in PL down automatically. 3rd from bottom in a playoff final against the Championship playoff winners. 4th-7th in Championship play off as you’ve said above to determine who plays 3rd, then the winner of that plays the PL team at Wembley. It would give one promoted PL team more chance than they have now of surviving for a season & building.

You got it wrong. It is only the bottom club in the SPL that is automatically relegated. The second bottom plays the winner of the surviving shitfest to get up.

 

[Nick Jansky]

You got it wrong. It is only the bottom club in the SPL that is automatically relegated. The second bottom plays the winner of the surviving shitfest to get up.

You are correct re Scotland. I was saying how I would apply it in England. That’s why I said “broadly similar to”.

 

[Snowflake]

I wouldn’t mind a broadly similar format to the Scottish one. Bottom two in PL down automatically. 3rd from bottom in a playoff final against the Championship playoff winners. 4th-7th in Championship play off as you’ve said above to determine who plays 3rd, then the winner of that plays the PL team at Wembley. It would give one promoted PL team more chance than they have now of surviving for a season & building.

Our record when we had something similar is not good !

 

[skegblade]

A potential idea didn't know you had a pull on the lawmakers ,wouldn't have wrote it if we were top 2

 

[JJBlade]

3rd place straight to Wembley
4th plays 7th one leg, 4th place at home
5th plays 6th, one leg, 5th place at home
Winners play each other at neutral venue
Winner plays 3rd placed team at Wembley

That way rewards the teams that finish highest and gives them the deserved best chance to get promoted

 

[Gimli]

I’d be interested to see the average points difference between 3rd and 6th - it’s all well and good saying it’s not fair because we’ve finished a lot of points above whoever ends up in 6th but if that doesn’t happen every year then it could be giving the team that finished 3rd an advantage that you could argue isn’t particularly deserved for example if there were only a handful of points between the teams.

I get that you could also argue that finishing 3rd in itself deserves an advantage.

 

[harrry1990s]

Currently sixth place is closer to third bottom than third top but can still go up.

 

[programmechap]

I’d be interested to see the average points difference between 3rd and 6th - it’s all well and good saying it’s not fair because we’ve finished a lot of points above whoever ends up in 6th but if that doesn’t happen every year then it could be giving the team that finished 3rd an advantage that you could argue isn’t particularly deserved for example if there were only a handful of points between the teams.

I get that you could also argue that finishing 3rd in itself deserves an advantage.

Last 10 years. Championship points gap between 3rd and 6th

2015 8
2016 15
2017 5
2018 13
2019 9
2020 11
2021 10
2022 7
2023 11
2024 17

Average 11

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

Last 10 years. Championship points gap between 3rd and 6th

2015 8
2016 15
2017 5
2018 13
2019 9
2020 11
2021 10
2022 7
2023 11
2024 17

Average 11

I can see a trend.

 

[mattbianco1]

Before we kick a ball in our 10th Play off campaign I think the format could do with a rejig so there is some benefit given to finishing higher and over the season been the 3rd most attractive side in the league, if we win next week we will have won 94 points (6 off my prediction of 100) and yet have to share the same lottery as the shit that finishes 6th 20 points behind.

My suggestion to the EFL.

3rd Place - Direct to Wembley.

4th v 7th 1 off match
5th v 6th 1 off match

Winner of said ties play over to legs to face 3rd at Wembley

That's near enough what they do in non-league.

As only 1 club is promoted automatically, 2nd and 3rd go straight to the semi finals - those 2 teams are guaranteed a 1-off match at HOME.
4th v 7th and 5th v 6th play each other over 2 legs to meet the "seeded" 2nd and 3rd placed teams in the semis (away from home).

To incorporate this into the EFL would mean we either...

• expand the PO's to 8th place
• scrap 2nd auto place

I'd like similar to the above but with a bit of variation...

1st & 2nd - automatically promoted.
3rd place - direct route to Wembley
4th, 5th, 6th & 7th - mini group (like Euros and World Cup). All play each other once, winner of group plays 3rd at Wembley

The mini group games could even be played at a 2x neutral stadiums - Villa Park, MK Dons, Etihad, Everton, King Power, Pride Park etc. can all be split evenly and offer over 30,000 capacity

 

[1889]

3rd place straight to Wembley
4th plays 7th one leg, 4th place at home
5th plays 6th, one leg, 5th place at home
Winners play each other at neutral venue
Winner plays 3rd placed team at Wembley

That way rewards the teams that finish highest and gives them the deserved best chance to get promoted

Agreed that is the perfect arrangement, except you’d need 2 leg playoffs before the neutral ground game, or the EFL would lose TV revenue and gate receipts.

If it was introduced, you could guarantee that the 3rd place team would complain that their opponents were at an advantage, as they’d been able to carry their momentum from the play off matches, through to the final game

 

[programmechap]

Out of interest, 2nd tier play off winners by league position since current format started in 1988-9

3rd: 13
4th 9
5th 9
6th 5

(In 90-1, 3 went up automatically, so 4 = 3 etc
In 94-5 only one went up automatically so 2 = 3 etc)

 

[programmechap]

So a 36% chance of going up in 3rd
25% in 4th or 5th
14% in 6th.

 

[mattbianco1]

The rules are blatantly clear before the season starts, here the same thing on different forums every league every year

We used to travel on horses before cars were invented

 

[mattbianco1]

Out of interest, 2nd tier play off winners by league position since current format started in 1988-9

3rd: 13
4th 9
5th 9
6th 5

(In 90-1, 3 went up automatically, so 4 = 3 etc
In 94-5 only one went up automatically so 2 = 3 etc)

United are skewing that 5th place counter

Both Burnley and Wolves finished 5th when we'd finished 3rd.

United win both them and the count looks like expected:
3rd = 15
4th = 9
5th = 7
6th = 5

 

[programmechap]

Agreed that is the perfect arrangement, except you’d need 2 leg playoffs before the neutral ground game, or the EFL would lose TV revenue and gate receipts.

If it was introduced, you could guarantee that the 3rd place team would complain that their opponents were at an advantage, as they’d been able to carry their momentum from the play off matches, through to the final game

4th and 5th get 2 home games in the group stage, 6th and 7th 1.

So group games
6 v 5
3 v 4
5 v 3
4 v 6
3 v 6
4 v 5

 

[programmechap]

United are skewing that 5th place counter

Both Burnley and Wolves finished 5th when we'd finished 3rd.

United win both them and the count looks like expected:
3rd = 15
4th = 9
5th = 7
6th = 5

Indeed, but it still one of footballs great myths that "3rd rarely win play offs as they're deflated at not getting automatic"

 

[mattbianco1]

Currently sixth place is closer to third bottom than third top but can still go up.

5th placed Bristol City are too.

So 2 of the 4 Play Off teams will be nearer relegation than promotion

 

[Ned the Donkey]

Any idea of making the play-offs fair is dead in the water.

It’s basically the equivalent of “next goal winner”.

The only fair system is third place gets automatically promoted, and that’s it.

No amount of contortions or gyrations or obfuscations is going to change that.

It's not sport, it's 'sports entertainment'.

 

[ancientblade]

many pundits speculating on how its getting more difficult for promoted championship clubs to stay in the premier league but for me its simple 14 clubs are established in there now every season its more or less a 6 team mini league 3 from the prem and the 3 promoted clubs

 

[Pollingtonblade]

many pundits speculating on how its getting more difficult for promoted championship clubs to stay in the premier league but for me its simple 14 clubs are established in there now every season its more or less a 6 team mini league 3 from the prem and the 3 promoted clubs

A 2nd Premier League could be an idea?

 

[Selly]

many pundits speculating on how its getting more difficult for promoted championship clubs to stay in the premier league but for me its simple 14 clubs are established in there now every season its more or less a 6 team mini league 3 from the prem and the 3 promoted clubs

Which 3 of the top 17 in the PL do you consider not established?

Or to put it the other way, who will Leeds, Burnley and (Hopefully) us (bit possibly Sunderland, Bristol C, Coventry etc) be seeking to finish above?

 

[dsr-burnley]

3rd place straight to Wembley
4th plays 7th one leg, 4th place at home
5th plays 6th, one leg, 5th place at home
Winners play each other at neutral venue
Winner plays 3rd placed team at Wembley

That way rewards the teams that finish highest and gives them the deserved best chance to get promoted

Does that give too much of an advantage to 3rd place? If we say a non-neutral game is 60-40 in favour of the home team, the winning percentage chances are:

3rd = 50% 4th = 15% 5th = 15% 6th = 10% 7th = 10%. I can see the attraction of being better than 25% across the board for 3rd to 6th, but this way gives 4th place only a little better chance than 7th so it still needs tweaking IMO.