OK - We're all experts , but what`s the advice to ...

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because we cant play a game without bringing ben osborn on he really influences games doesnt he 😳😳😳
He does! He's our best player at running around! You know how running around scares the shit out of the opposition.
Head and shoulders above Berge and Egan at that.
A comment about players being demoralised with the boardroom situation does not excuse those 2 twats yesterday from jogging about after losing the ball. Egan could have probably got a block on the first goal if he'd sprinted.
He's making far too many mistakes recently.
And him and Berge both look like they can't be arsed.
Where Berge goes when he leaves is anyone's guess , but noone decent will take him if he keeps showing the same attitude.
 



Compared to Wilder, yes. Wilder is the most board critical manager of SUFC since we sold Deane and Fjortoft; he's an outlier. Wilder resigned three times to get his way. Give me what I want or I'm gone. The third time he had this confrontation he was gone (I'll be here "if we stick to the plan" was his last comment on his future at SUFC).No manager bar Hecky has been more critical of the board since Charles Green sold the team - if he's a pussycat, they're all teddy bears

Hecky has been going on about the training ground and needing a Khadra replacement for ages whilst pressurising the board not to sell Berge and Ndiaye throughout his tenure. He's let the fans know exactly who's responsible for those situations, and the ongoing problem with the first two. He also let us know it was new players or training ground in the summer; not both! He's very good at placing the spotlight on the board imo. Some would call it blame shifting.Managing upstairs is always parodied as blame shifting. I think it's a key part of modern football management.

It's funny, but when Wilder was "managing upstairs" there was barely a trickle of support on here. I know as I was supporting him. Now it's all, "we don't want puppets and yes men". To most of those people I'd say you were happy when the biggest anti puppet we ever had left, or certainly weren't supporting his upstairs management. It was all his fault, not the board's, and he should shut up, doff his cap, and get on with the job😉.

You were never on your own, the vast majority supported wilder and most banged the drum for him to lead us back up, which he would have done.

The tide turned once we found out he secretly wanted out, we backed him and he wanted out, I saw that as a betrayal in the end.
 
You were never on your own, the vast majority supported wilder and most banged the drum for him to lead us back up, which he would have done.

The tide turned once we found out he secretly wanted out, we backed him and he wanted out, I saw that as a betrayal in the end.

Most wanted him to stay. Most didn't back him against the board which ultimately resulted in his demise. This heightened after the anti Wilder propaganda in the aftermath coming from the boardroom, none of which was ever substantiated by the way. Wilder kept his counsel.The majority backed the board. Let's not rewrite history. Where's the evidence that "he secretly wanted out"?. His parting word were "if the plan doesn't change" I'll still be manager.
 
. Where's the evidence that "he secretly wanted out".


Tried to resign 2 times before most got wind of it..

I'd say that he kept it secret..

Yes he managed upstairs. Everyone knew about the post Bristol resignation, the tears, the waves goodbye. It's a good job the board backed down. He resigned twice more yet the board payed him off 🤣 and he was a money grubber. Some people will believe anything.I can believe that credulity but not in light of what's happened since.
 
Yes he managed upstairs. Everyone knew about the post Bristol resignation, the tears, the waves goodbye. It's a good job the board backed down. He resigned twice more yet the board payed him off 🤣 and he was a money grubber. Some people will believe anything.I can believe that credulity but not in light of what's happened since.

Me and everybody I knew backed him right to the end, that's all I'm saying, you were not alone.
 
Step 1 - admit something needs changing

Step 2 - come up with your own tactics instead of following the wilder blueprint
 
Hecky to get us over the line from here

First thing to acknowledge is that performances haven't been good for some time.
We ground our way through a run of fixtures against the teams at the bottom, picking up a lot of narrow 1 goal wins in the process, mostly through the individual excellence of the likes of Ndiaye, Bogle, McAtee and Berge.

The results were never likely to continue as we entered into a run of fixtures against tougher opposition.
We deserved the points tally that we'd amassed, but it never looked likely that we were going to continue on at 2 points / game.
If you were a neutral observer, you wouldn't have watched our games and thought we looked like a team on its way to 92 points +.
The league table is now correcting itself.

The anomaly this season has been the lack of opposition to the top two.
That's now changed and we are going to have to be very good to hold off a strong Middlesbrough.

On the pitch, our system isn't working.
We've lost our defensive solidity and our midfield is disjointed and anonymous.
We're totally reliant on Ndiaye (out of form), Bogle, Berge, McAtee (inconsistent), McBurnie (injury prone and requires service) to bail us out through individual endeavour.

We need to build from the solid foundations that have got us here.
First off, we can't pick up points when we're conceding 2/3 goals a game. So, the defence needs addressing...

... in terms of personnel, we miss Baldock, Ahmedhodzic, Clark and RND.
As soon as they're ready, feed them back into the XI.
We might lose a bit of attacking impetus but we should have enough within our forward ranks.
Right now, we have little-to-no platform to work off. This is where it starts.
Clean sheet... now can the lads conjure something up at the top of the field.

In midfield, it no longer looks viable to leave Norwood at the base by himself.
He's exposed defensively and easy to mark out of games.
I've lost count of the amount of times we've lost the midfield battle this season, even in games we've won.
It needs an extra body in there..

Berge and McAtee can be on the pitch together when we're chasing a goal, but they both shouldn't start together..
So, we lose one attacking midfielder and replace them with a more orthodox central midfielder to help Norwood....
... this is the one area I worry about, as I'm not sure we have the personnel;

Osborn - lacks quality in every facet.
Fleck - unfit.
Coulibaly - inexperienced.
Doyle - disappears in games, lacks physicality.

One of these 4 has to put their hand up and become the answer.
It is really key we do something, even if it means trying something radical (Brooks / RND) in that role.

(...a massive opportunity went begging when we missed out on Lewis O'Brien and Ben Pearson but there's no point looking back with regrets now. Shoes off in the Summer though!)

Up front, Berge needs to stay in advanced areas. He clearly isn't a guy that can do it for a full 90 minutes, so I'd much rather he conserved his energy for those big moments around the penalty area.
However, we shouldn't be afraid to sub him (and drop him) when it isn't working.

Ndiaye is out of form. We need to rotate him with McAtee to keep both of them fresh.
Both have shown they can have an impact coming on late in games. I think it's important to have at least one quality option on the bench to change things when needed.

McBurnie starts, when fit. He is our only forward capable of holding and linking.
Jebbison is a good option to stretch games off the bench.

Ultimately, the boys need to work a lot harder when they're out of possession.
Middlesbrough showed us up midweek with their pass and move style.
Before we played Burnley, I mentioned how impressed I was with their midfield of Brownhill, Cork and (especially) Cullen. They move around the pitch together, passing in triangles, defending and attacking.
When we have the ball, we're trying to dribble through players. Lumping it long. Giving it to a man that's marked. It isn't good enough. We look like a team of individuals the second we cross the halfway line.
 
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First thing to acknowledge is that performances haven't been good for some time.
We ground our way through a run of fixtures against the teams at the bottom, picking up a lot of narrow 1 goal wins in the process, mostly through the individual excellence of the likes of Ndiaye, Bogle, McAtee and Berge.

The results were never likely to continue as we entered into a run of fixtures against tougher opposition.
We deserved the points tally that we'd amassed, but it never looked likely that we were going to continue on at 2 points / game.
If you were a neutral observer, you wouldn't have watched our games and thought we looked like a team on its way to 92 points +.
The league table is now correcting itself.

The anomaly this season has been the lack of opposition to the top two.
That's now changed and we are going to have to be very good to hold off a strong Middlesbrough.

On the pitch, our system isn't working.
We've lost our defensive solidity and our midfield is disjointed and anonymous.
We're totally reliant on Ndiaye (out of form), Bogle, Berge, McAtee (inconsistent), McBurnie (injury prone and requires service) to bail us out through individual endeavour.

We need to build from the solid foundations that have got us here.
First off, we can't pick up points when we're conceding 2/3 goals a game. So, the defence needs addressing...

... in terms of personnel, we miss Baldock, Ahmedhodzic, Clark and RND.
As soon as they're ready, feed them back into the XI.
We might lose a bit of attacking impetus but we should have enough within our forward ranks.
Right now, we have little-to-no platform to work off. This is where it starts.
Clean sheet... now can the lads conjure something up at the top of the field.

In midfield, it no longer looks viable to leave Norwood at the base by himself.
He's exposed defensively and easy to mark out of games.
I've lost count of the amount of times we've lost the midfield battle this season, even in games we've won.
It needs an extra body in there..

Berge and McAtee can be on the pitch together when we're chasing a goal, but they both shouldn't start together..
So, we lose one attacking midfielder and replace them with a more orthodox central midfielder to help Norwood....
... this is the one area I worry about, as I'm not sure we have the personnel;

Osborn - lacks quality in every facet.
Fleck - unfit.
Coulibaly - inexperienced.
Doyle - disappears in games, lacks physicality.

One of these 4 has to put their hand up and become the answer.
It is really key we do something, even if it means trying something radical (Brooks / RND) in that role.

(...a massive opportunity went begging when we missed out on Lewis O'Brien and Ben Pearson but there's no point looking back with regrets now. Shoes off in the Summer though!)

Up front, Berge needs to stay in advanced areas. He clearly isn't a guy that can do it for a full 90 minutes, so I'd much rather he conserved his energy for those big moments around the penalty area.
However, we shouldn't be afraid to sub him (and drop him) when it isn't working.

Ndiaye is out of form. We need to rotate him with McAtee to keep both of them fresh.
Both have shown they can have an impact coming on late in games. I think it's important to have at least one quality option on the bench to change things when needed.

McBurnie starts, when fit. He is our only forward capable of holding and linking.
Jebbison is a good option to stretch games off the bench.

Ultimately, the boys need to work a lot harder when they're out of possession.
Middlesbrough showed us up midweek with their pass and move style.
Before we played Burnley, I mentioned how impressed I was with their midfield of Brownhill, Cork and (especially) Cullen. They move around the pitch together, passing in triangles, defending and attacking.
When we have the ball, we're trying to dribble through players. Lumping it long. Giving it to a man that's marked. It isn't good enough. We look like a team of individuals the second we cross the halfway line.
Good post, I must have missed Pearson going to Stoke. Presumably he'd have been quite a cheap signing and would have been useful for us.
OBrien would have been the icing on the cake and pretty much guaranteed us promotion
 
If it was true, where are all these fantastic, cheap foreign players Wilder was turning down now? They have free rein post Wilder, so where are they? Why were they also signing Wilder targets when he left (Ben Davies) instead of these cheap foreign diamonds for peanuts?
Brexit largely put paid to it two years ago. It would no longer be possible to bring in, just as one example, Mahrez.
 
First thing to acknowledge is that performances haven't been good for some time.
We ground our way through a run of fixtures against the teams at the bottom, picking up a lot of narrow 1 goal wins in the process, mostly through the individual excellence of the likes of Ndiaye, Bogle, McAtee and Berge.

The results were never likely to continue as we entered into a run of fixtures against tougher opposition.
We deserved the points tally that we'd amassed, but it never looked likely that we were going to continue on at 2 points / game.
If you were a neutral observer, you wouldn't have watched our games and thought we looked like a team on its way to 92 points +.
The league table is now correcting itself.

The anomaly this season has been the lack of opposition to the top two.
That's now changed and we are going to have to be very good to hold off a strong Middlesbrough.

On the pitch, our system isn't working.
We've lost our defensive solidity and our midfield is disjointed and anonymous.
We're totally reliant on Ndiaye (out of form), Bogle, Berge, McAtee (inconsistent), McBurnie (injury prone and requires service) to bail us out through individual endeavour.

We need to build from the solid foundations that have got us here.
First off, we can't pick up points when we're conceding 2/3 goals a game. So, the defence needs addressing...

... in terms of personnel, we miss Baldock, Ahmedhodzic, Clark and RND.
As soon as they're ready, feed them back into the XI.
We might lose a bit of attacking impetus but we should have enough within our forward ranks.
Right now, we have little-to-no platform to work off. This is where it starts.
Clean sheet... now can the lads conjure something up at the top of the field.

In midfield, it no longer looks viable to leave Norwood at the base by himself.
He's exposed defensively and easy to mark out of games.
I've lost count of the amount of times we've lost the midfield battle this season, even in games we've won.
It needs an extra body in there..

Berge and McAtee can be on the pitch together when we're chasing a goal, but they both shouldn't start together..
So, we lose one attacking midfielder and replace them with a more orthodox central midfielder to help Norwood....
... this is the one area I worry about, as I'm not sure we have the personnel;

Osborn - lacks quality in every facet.
Fleck - unfit.
Coulibaly - inexperienced.
Doyle - disappears in games, lacks physicality.

One of these 4 has to put their hand up and become the answer.
It is really key we do something, even if it means trying something radical (Brooks / RND) in that role.

(...a massive opportunity went begging when we missed out on Lewis O'Brien and Ben Pearson but there's no point looking back with regrets now. Shoes off in the Summer though!)

Up front, Berge needs to stay in advanced areas. He clearly isn't a guy that can do it for a full 90 minutes, so I'd much rather he conserved his energy for those big moments around the penalty area.
However, we shouldn't be afraid to sub him (and drop him) when it isn't working.

Ndiaye is out of form. We need to rotate him with McAtee to keep both of them fresh.
Both have shown they can have an impact coming on late in games. I think it's important to have at least one quality option on the bench to change things when needed.

McBurnie starts, when fit. He is our only forward capable of holding and linking.
Jebbison is a good option to stretch games off the bench.

Ultimately, the boys need to work a lot harder when they're out of possession.
Middlesbrough showed us up midweek with their pass and move style.
Before we played Burnley, I mentioned how impressed I was with their midfield of Brownhill, Cork and (especially) Cullen. They move around the pitch together, passing in triangles, defending and attacking.
When we have the ball, we're trying to dribble through players. Lumping it long. Giving it to a man that's marked. It isn't good enough. We look like a team of individuals the second we cross the halfway line.
👌
 
Start by going back to basics and being solid and hard to beat next match. No 3 v 3s at the back.

I feel like we're trying to outscore teams suddenly when our key threats have actually lost form.
I like the approach but how many times do you see Norwood running back pointing and Berge 10 yards behind him we have the slowest midfield .. UTB
 
First thing to acknowledge is that performances haven't been good for some time.
We ground our way through a run of fixtures against the teams at the bottom, picking up a lot of narrow 1 goal wins in the process, mostly through the individual excellence of the likes of Ndiaye, Bogle, McAtee and Berge.

The results were never likely to continue as we entered into a run of fixtures against tougher opposition.
We deserved the points tally that we'd amassed, but it never looked likely that we were going to continue on at 2 points / game.
If you were a neutral observer, you wouldn't have watched our games and thought we looked like a team on its way to 92 points +.
The league table is now correcting itself.

The anomaly this season has been the lack of opposition to the top two.
That's now changed and we are going to have to be very good to hold off a strong Middlesbrough.

On the pitch, our system isn't working.
We've lost our defensive solidity and our midfield is disjointed and anonymous.
We're totally reliant on Ndiaye (out of form), Bogle, Berge, McAtee (inconsistent), McBurnie (injury prone and requires service) to bail us out through individual endeavour.

We need to build from the solid foundations that have got us here.
First off, we can't pick up points when we're conceding 2/3 goals a game. So, the defence needs addressing...

... in terms of personnel, we miss Baldock, Ahmedhodzic, Clark and RND.
As soon as they're ready, feed them back into the XI.
We might lose a bit of attacking impetus but we should have enough within our forward ranks.
Right now, we have little-to-no platform to work off. This is where it starts.
Clean sheet... now can the lads conjure something up at the top of the field.

In midfield, it no longer looks viable to leave Norwood at the base by himself.
He's exposed defensively and easy to mark out of games.
I've lost count of the amount of times we've lost the midfield battle this season, even in games we've won.
It needs an extra body in there..

Berge and McAtee can be on the pitch together when we're chasing a goal, but they both shouldn't start together..
So, we lose one attacking midfielder and replace them with a more orthodox central midfielder to help Norwood....
... this is the one area I worry about, as I'm not sure we have the personnel;

Osborn - lacks quality in every facet.
Fleck - unfit.
Coulibaly - inexperienced.
Doyle - disappears in games, lacks physicality.

One of these 4 has to put their hand up and become the answer.
It is really key we do something, even if it means trying something radical (Brooks / RND) in that role.

(...a massive opportunity went begging when we missed out on Lewis O'Brien and Ben Pearson but there's no point looking back with regrets now. Shoes off in the Summer though!)

Up front, Berge needs to stay in advanced areas. He clearly isn't a guy that can do it for a full 90 minutes, so I'd much rather he conserved his energy for those big moments around the penalty area.
However, we shouldn't be afraid to sub him (and drop him) when it isn't working.

Ndiaye is out of form. We need to rotate him with McAtee to keep both of them fresh.
Both have shown they can have an impact coming on late in games. I think it's important to have at least one quality option on the bench to change things when needed.

McBurnie starts, when fit. He is our only forward capable of holding and linking.
Jebbison is a good option to stretch games off the bench.

Ultimately, the boys need to work a lot harder when they're out of possession.
Middlesbrough showed us up midweek with their pass and move style.
Before we played Burnley, I mentioned how impressed I was with their midfield of Brownhill, Cork and (especially) Cullen. They move around the pitch together, passing in triangles, defending and attacking.
When we have the ball, we're trying to dribble through players. Lumping it long. Giving it to a man that's marked. It isn't good enough. We look like a team of individuals the second we cross the halfway line.
" in terms of personnel, we miss Baldock, Ahmedhodzic, Clark and RND."

All four started the game in August in the 2-0 home win against the Wall. A team we had struggled against in the air and been outmuscled. We all were delighted at not giving a team like Wall a sniff during 90 minutes as the threat of Cooper was nullified. Many said this was the best defensive performance by the back 3 for a long time along with Egan. Clark had his best game for us and won everything in the air.

Little did we know 3 of the four would be beset with injury most of the season. The other one contracted glandular fever and is still only half the player he was at the beginning of the season as a result. Yesterday without Anel and Clark we were like lambs to the slaughter and were bullied. They need to be in the team now and we have to hope for some medical miracles over the next few weeks to get the other two back. With these in the side we can beat any team in the division. Without them we are porous and will continue to concede more than we should against the better opposition.
 
We need Ciaran Clark back. He's probably the best reader of the game we've got and would help Lowe immensely. The current LHS defence is being exploited by opponents and is too easily dragged out of position which in turn stresses everywhere else.
Obviously a fully fit Ahmedhodzic would be a shoe in on the right.

But ultimately it's all about characters and confidence.
 



I don't think you get much for that sort of outlay. You get a Championship player that might step up. Villa spent around double that on Watkins from the Championship. Brewster has been a bad signing as and there's been others but we aren't talking huge money. 20 million isn't big money in the Prem, it's punting money.


Foreign players under Wilder (non Irish, Scots, Welsh) from the top of my head: Verrips, Zivkovic, Besic, Berge, Mousset, Lavery, Restos, Uremovic. There's probably others. I don't think it's an issue until the Championship at the earlies but that's over five seasons. People only cared about the "lack of foreigners" in the last two. The board said nothing publicly until our relegation season 🤣.

My point isn't really that he was mad on signing foreigners, he wasn't, its more that the board narrative of him turning them down isn't really true, and seems quite comical given post Wilder player acquisition

If it was true, where are all these fantastic, cheap foreign players Wilder was turning down now? They have free reign post Wilder, so where are they? Why were they also signing Wilder targets when he left (Ben Davies) instead of these cheap foreign diamonds for peanuts?
There are no peanuts left now. The owner looks like the peanuts run dry a while ago?
 
Good post, I must have missed Pearson going to Stoke. Presumably he'd have been quite a cheap signing and would have been useful for us.
OBrien would have been the icing on the cake and pretty much guaranteed us promotion
agreed and this is why its so frustrating for fans and more so hecky he knew the squad needed freshening up and had targets like o brien lined up but for this transfer embargo fiasco i think hecky would have been happy for berge to go if he then could have brought o brien and archer in
 
agreed and this is why its so frustrating for fans and more so hecky he knew the squad needed freshening up and had targets like o brien lined up but for this transfer embargo fiasco i think hecky would have been happy for berge to go if he then could have brought o brien and archer in
I don't know TBH, he seemed vocal at the time about not selling?
 
There are no peanuts left now. The owner looks like the peanuts run dry a while ago?

We've made a lot of big money loans. If we look throughout the whole "United World" group there's not a lot of positive comments on the transfer policy.
 
agreed and this is why its so frustrating for fans and more so hecky he knew the squad needed freshening up and had targets like o brien lined up but for this transfer embargo fiasco i think hecky would have been happy for berge to go if he then could have brought o brien and archer in
Swapping Berge for Archer and O'Brien would have been awesome business
 
We've made a lot of big money loans. If we look throughout the whole "United World" group there's not a lot of positive comments on the transfer policy.
I think that people, including me are still unsure if the EPL money could have been spent differently over the two seasons, especially what we are currently facing now, should promotion not be achieved (which is now firmly in the balance!).
 
I thought Hecky when asked about the window I will be happy with the window if we can just get through it without selling anyone this is a good group I don't want anyone to leave.
 
Try something different instead of keep doing what clearly isn't working, and change things early instead of when it's too late. Change formation during matches. Change tactics during matches.

That said

"We never change our approach and how we are. We are preparing for another game straight away - that is the good thing about this league."

That's from today's post match interview. So that's my advice flushed down the can! 🤣
Don’t panic, which they aren’t, approach games exactly as we have done before (as it has brought us success as we are the second best team in the division). As for fans remember football results chuck up surprises that’s what makes it exciting (of which Millwall wasn’t an anomaly). Recognise this squad and management team will be doing everything to win all games.
 
" in terms of personnel, we miss Baldock, Ahmedhodzic, Clark and RND."

All four started the game in August in the 2-0 home win against the Wall. A team we had struggled against in the air and been outmuscled. We all were delighted at not giving a team like Wall a sniff during 90 minutes as the threat of Cooper was nullified. Many said this was the best defensive performance by the back 3 for a long time along with Egan. Clark had his best game for us and won everything in the air.

Little did we know 3 of the four would be beset with injury most of the season. The other one contracted glandular fever and is still only half the player he was at the beginning of the season as a result. Yesterday without Anel and Clark we were like lambs to the slaughter and were bullied. They need to be in the team now and we have to hope for some medical miracles over the next few weeks to get the other two back. With these in the side we can beat any team in the division. Without them we are porous and will continue to concede more than we should against the better opposition.

I was one of those fans.

Millwall bombarded our box that day but we snuffed everything out... comfortably.
Historically, they'd have bullied their way back into the match but we stood firm.

Back in August, we looked the real deal. We absolutely blew Blackburn & Reading away at Bramall Lane (top when they came).
Comfortably handled a Millwall side that have often given us problems.
Credible draws away at Luton & Middlesbrough who we expected to be amongst the top six teams...

Since then, it's hard to think of more than a handful of really impressive performances.

I hope the lads have enjoyed a few beers together on Saturday night.
They need a bit of a reset.

Heckingbottom has to freshen the team up next Saturday, or it'll be more of the same.
 
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Swapping Berge for Archer and O'Brien would have been awesome business
Never happen as both players would have been sold and we would have still not allowed to bring anyone in irrespective of O’Brien wanting to come in!
 
Biggest problem is Max Lowe can't defend, put Clarke in at LCB and Robinson at LB, at least we'll have someone who can put a tackle in instead of Powder puff defending
 
Biggest problem is Max Lowe can't defend, put Clarke in at LCB and Robinson at LB, at least we'll have someone who can put a tackle in instead of Powder puff defending


If we're going to go nuclear and just get our best defenders on the pitch, then Robinson over Lowe might not be the worst idea.
Robinson's actually not a bad footballer either, he's not terrible going forwards and you keep the long throw threat on the pitch.

Lowe, after being very impressive, has gone to shit this week. Along with Bogle.

Assuming Baldock is still out, that would give us a defence next week of;

Bogle - Anel - Egan - Clark - Robinson.

Up against a very tricky Watford, I'd feel far more confident with that than Saturday's:

Bogle - Basham - Egan - Robinson - Lowe.

Baldock & RND to come back in as soon as they're ready.

Then, if we can get Fleck ready for Saturday, I'd be sticking him next to Norwood.
Play only two of Ndiaye / McAtee / Berge.

Team could look like.

....................Wes
Bogle Anel Egan Clark Lowe
.......Norwood.....Fleck
...........Berge......Ndiaye
................McBurnie
 



I thought Hecky when asked about the window I will be happy with the window if we can just get through it without selling anyone this is a good group I don't want anyone to leave.
As the thread title says we are all experts. Hecky quite probably said to the board in the jtw we don't need anyone just don't sell. He deffo sees something in the players that we don't Osborn for instance. He won't sub Berge off when he is in non contributing mode and goes for Bash rather than Clark in a defence that is decidedly jittery. His persistence with not subbing off form players in games is going to cost us I'm afraid.
 

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