Kop Stand Improvements

[Ricky]

If the rake is steeper then unless the stand is built taller then capacity must be reduced, unless we build it taller than the current South stand. Many say they want more leg room in a new stand, more leg room again means a capacity reduction.

The club are never going to pay massive amounts of money to reduce revenue (with a lower or similar capacity) when the alternative is to pay much less with the bonus of increasing future revenue and not risk upsetting 1000’s of fans.

I’m in agreement in that in an ideal world (forgetting finances) i’d like a total rebuild as long as I wasn’t one of the season ticket holders banned from the ground. In fact telling season tickets holders they can’t attend a single home game for 18 months might mean we lose 1000’s of current fans and potential floating fans, would be a brave man to implement a total rebuild.

Any fans who wouldn't be willing to sit out 18 months given the massive long term benefit are very small minded. A new tier on the South Stand would reduce the amount of season ticket holders 'banned'.

I'd like it to be built high, and made the absolute focal point of the ground.

I agree that the club wouldn't do it, because the club is run by humans and humans put profit above everything else.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

If there’s ever going to be a full rebuild there is no better time to do it than when it’s next developed. Tinker with the current version to make minor changes (which will no doubt be expensive enough for what they’d return) and I worry the stand won’t ever get the full treatment it needs.

 

[Sheffsteel]

If there’s ever going to be a full rebuild there is no better time to do it than when it’s next developed. Tinker with the current version to make minor changes (which will no doubt be expensive enough for what they’d return) and I worry the stand won’t ever get the full treatment it needs.

Can someone explain what a rebuild would provide compared to the current planned design?

I believe the only difference would be a little more space under the stand, so slightly more banqueting/ conference facilities. Remember at ground level near the pitch the available space becomes negligible compared to the back of the stand HOWEVER the car park at the Kop end would be too small (compared to the South stand car park) to accept a large number of guests.

If we made it a 2 tier stand then it would mean extra corporate/VIP facilities but I think a 2 tier would spoil the atmosphere and also we will have reached saturation point if the South stand is also having extensive cooperate facilities.

An option that has already been mentioned is to do the South stand first, extra 5,400 seats but that still not enough to house the 8000 season ticket holders in the Kop, so over 2,000 season tickets will still effectively receive a club ban for 18 months.

 

[Maidenhead]

Any fans who wouldn't be willing to sit out 18 months given the massive long term benefit are very small minded. A new tier on the South Stand would reduce the amount of season ticket holders 'banned'.

I'd like it to be built high, and made the absolute focal point of the ground.

I agree that the club wouldn't do it, because the club is run by humans and humans put profit above everything else.

Call me small minded but I wouldn't be prepared to sit out 18 months for long term benefit.

I'm 63 years old and the next 18 months to 3 yrs could be the best times I have left watching United. Where's the long term benefit to me?

I used to have a season ticket at Leeds Rhinos until they started charging Wednesday type prices and then did exactly what you are suggesting.

They knocked the south stand down (kop equivalent) and spread season ticket holders all over the ground whilst it was rebuilt.

It reduced the capacity of the ground (hence the price increases to maintain revenue) meaning very limited opportunity to buy tickets on a match by match basis, in fact so limited that in the first instance you had to buy a membership to even qualify to buy a match ticket.

They soon binned that off when they discovered that they couldn't sell out the reduced capacity because fans were so hacked off with their actions.

Now they have a shiny new stadium and crowds down about 20% from where they were.

I binned off my season ticket for them and would do the same again at BDTBL if they started treating fans like working assets of the business

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Can someone explain what a rebuild would provide compared to the current planned design?

I believe the only difference would be a little more space under the stand, so slightly more banqueting/ conference facilities. Remember at ground level near the pitch the available space becomes negligible compared to the back of the stand HOWEVER the car park at the Kop end would be too small (compared to the South stand car park) to accept a large number of guests.

An option that has already been mentioned is to do the South stand first, extra 5,400 seats but that still not enough to house the 8000 season ticket holders in the Kop, so over 2,000 season tickets will still effectively receive a club ban for 18 months.

All the matchday facilities could be housed under the stadium, freeing up a lot of the land around the stadium to be built on. Another advantage would be the ability to exit from gangways beneath, rather than the current top/bottom exits. It’s pretty congested at full time anyway, and that’s only going to be exacerbated if we just extend the back of the Kop with more seats.

 

[Chali 2na]

Profit's not the most important thing. Certainly not when you're rolling in PL money every season.

You're right; profit isn't the most important thing. I can see why you think it would be worth it.

I do have a couple of points to make on the subject of your replies though:

What would you rather spend £20m on? One player or something that's a permanent, massively significant addition to the club and its identity? What better thing to spend money on than your own stadium? What defines a club more?

I know £20m is a hypothetical figure, but I think it vastly underestimates the cost. I'm no expert, but I reckon flattening and rebuilding a bigger pop would cost closer to £100m than £20m, perhaps even more.

Also, as for investing in something meaningful, like the kop, as opposed to players; it makes sense - build something that will last a lifetime rather than blast it on players.

However, we'll only be "rolling in PL money" if we stay in the PL, and for a club of our size to stay in the PL, probabaly means investing heavily in players for several seasons.

And I'd gladly volunteer to give up my season ticket for 2 seasons during construction if needs be.

That's very admirable of you, I sit on the kop too, so I'd be in the same situation.

If I could relocate to another part of the ground then I'd be happy to give up my seat too - however, with the demand for tickets, I'm not sure that's likely.

If someone told me I'd have to miss PL games for 2 years (baring in mind I've only seen 1 year of PL football in my 18 years of going to the lane) I would be mortified. Who knows how long we'll stay there?

Wrong. The atmosphere could be far better with a far lower capacity. The main factor for atmosphere isn't numbers, it's the rake of the stand and the acoustics. More would stand up and more would be closer to the pitch. The current plan would just see the vocal supporters shoved even further away from the pitch.

Not that we should be looking at any reduced capacity in this rebuild scenario.

I'm not sure I'm following the logic here:

If increase the rake, the stand would have to be far bigger to fit the same amount of people in it. (Pushing vocal fans further away from the pitch - something you're not keen on.)

If we wanted the stand to remain the same size, we'd have to keep the same rake or vastly reduce capacity.

 

[Ricky]

An option that has already been mentioned is to do the South stand first, extra 5,400 seats but that still not enough to house the 8000 season ticket holders in the Kop, so over 2,000 season tickets will still effectively receive a club ban for 18 months.

We've got an upper tier that we waste. 2,000 is a small number of season ticket holders and they could probably all be housed in there and other areas of the ground. Very few would have to miss out, if any.

Call me small minded but I wouldn't be prepared to sit out 18 months for long term benefit.

I'm 63 years old and the next 18 months to 3 yrs could be the best times I have left watching United. Where's the long term benefit to me?

I used to have a season ticket at Leeds Rhinos until they started charging Wednesday type prices and then did exactly what you are suggesting.

They knocked the south stand down (kop equivalent) and spread season ticket holders all over the ground whilst it was rebuilt.

It reduced the capacity of the ground (hence the price increases to maintain revenue) meaning very limited opportunity to buy tickets on a match by match basis, in fact so limited that in the first instance you had to buy a membership to even qualify to buy a match ticket.

They soon binned that off when they discovered that they couldn't sell out the reduced capacity because fans were so hacked off with their actions.

Now they have a shiny new stadium and crowds down about 20% from where they were.

I binned off my season ticket for them and would do the same again at BDTBL if they started treating fans like working assets of the business

It wouldn't be a huge number of ST holders 'banned' and in any case there are plenty of ways for the club to keep them sweet. Nobody would have to miss every game. If the club did things right I really don't think we'd lose many fans at all. Even if we lost a few, it's really not that important and those people probably won't have been too committed in the first place.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Call me small minded but I wouldn't be prepared to sit out 18 months for long term benefit.

I'm 63 years old and the next 18 months to 3 yrs could be the best times I have left watching United. Where's the long term benefit to me?

I used to have a season ticket at Leeds Rhinos until they started charging Wednesday type prices and then did exactly what you are suggesting.

They knocked the south stand down (kop equivalent) and spread season ticket holders all over the ground whilst it was rebuilt.

It reduced the capacity of the ground (hence the price increases to maintain revenue) meaning very limited opportunity to buy tickets on a match by match basis, in fact so limited that in the first instance you had to buy a membership to even qualify to buy a match ticket.

They soon binned that off when they discovered that they couldn't sell out the reduced capacity because fans were so hacked off with their actions.

Now they have a shiny new stadium and crowds down about 20% from where they were.

I binned off my season ticket for them and would do the same again at BDTBL if they started treating fans like working assets of the business

Excellent story Maidenhead, it shows what can happen, when people stop going they find other things to do and never return.

Also i’m still unclear what the long term benefit is regards a new build compared to the current design.

Remember the current design will remove the pillars, no more restricted views, massive boost.
Massively improve and increase the concourse areas putting them under cover inside the stand, massive boost
Increase capacity by 3,200 seats with those additional seats all having a steeper rake, will increase revenue.

The only down side I can think of is the current seats continue with the shallow rake for the present seats and the also slightly cramped (but bearable) conditions.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It wouldn't be a huge number of ST holders 'banned' and in any case there are plenty of ways for the club to keep. Nobody would have to miss every game. If the club did things right I really don't think we'd lose many fans at all. Even if we lost a few, it's really not that important and those people probably won't have been too committed in the first place.

You haven’t though through properly at what you’ve said.

The current home capacity is 29K, less 3K in the BLUT that we must keep available for general sale. It’s already been proven that a “general sale “ area is massively important to grow a fan base, there will always be casuals, fans who live overseas or far away, students, guests who can only attend a few games a season, these can’t be banned and it stops the production line of new supporters.

So there will be 26K seats made available to season ticket holders.
If we close down 10K seats in the Kop, then that’s 16K available to season ticket holders.

Let’s say we’ve currently sold 24K season tickets. We could give 8,000 season ticket holders a 2 year ban from attending a single home game or as you say nonbody would need to miss every single game.

Instead we could have a system where EVERY single season ticket holder is affected and they ALL have to miss roughly 40% of all home game, imagine the fans who haven’t missed a single game for 40 years and your idea is “sorry mate, needs must”. Also season ticket holders who sit with their mates would be relocated all around the ground with different people they’ve never met before.

Your idea would create a shoes off in the car park demonstration with loads boycotting the club or even jacking it all in.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

I imagine it will be Poles removing the poles

Probably. The Copthorne was built by Czechs.

 

[Rodley]

Let’s face it, matchday revenue counts for fuck all in the Prem. it’s all TV money anyway. Is it worth spending that much money on extending?

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Profit's not the most important thing. Certainly not when you're rolling in PL money every season.

What would you rather spend £20m on? One player or something that's a permanent, massively significant addition to the club and its identity? What better thing to spend money on than your own stadium? What defines a club more?

The Kop would be brilliant, so the stadium would be brilliant. It would be something to be proud of. The atmosphere would improve.

It could ultimately be profitable by helping build our reputation and establishing us as a top level club. It would be a selling point to players, managers and investors alike.

And I'd gladly volunteer to give up my season ticket for 2 seasons during construction if needs be.

I wouldn't. Absolutely no way.
Why? For some kudos that means nearly nothing?
I'd say yes to some structural roof work to negate the pillars, but otherwise not.
Toilets and pie sales can be done without a a full kop demolition.

 

[Sean Thornton]

You haven’t though through properly at what you’ve said.

The current home capacity is 29K, less 3K in the BLUT that we must keep available for general sale. It’s already been proven that a “general sale “ area is massively important to grow a fan base, there will always be casuals, fans who live overseas or far away, students, guests who can only attend a few games a season, these can’t be banned and it stops the production line of new supporters.

So there will be 26K seats made available to season ticket holders.
If we close down 10K seats in the Kop, then that’s 16K available to season ticket holders.

Let’s say we’ve currently sold 24K season tickets. We could give 8,000 season ticket holders a 2 year ban from attending a single home game or as you say nonbody would need to miss every single game.

Instead we could have a system where EVERY single season ticket holder is affected and they ALL have to miss roughly 40% of all home game, imagine the fans who haven’t missed a single game for 40 years and your idea is “sorry mate, needs must”. Also season ticket holders who sit with their mates would be relocated all around the ground with different people they’ve never met before.

Your idea would create a shoes off in the car park demonstration with loads boycotting the club or even jacking it all in.

Some forget that the bigger picture by necessity has to be made up of little pictures.

The cost element is always vastly understated, problems are easily solved, - just shift a few - who's paying is irrelevant etc etc etc.

This "we need to be like" is pathetic. Whilst we need ground improvements we need an established PL side first. We need to stay Sheffield United, a more modern go ahead Sheffield United yes, but not a copy of some club that has a bloke banging a drum in the stands creating "atmosphere".

 

[Ricky]

You haven’t though through properly at what you’ve said.

The current home capacity is 29K, less 3K in the BLUT that we must keep available for general sale. It’s already been proven that a “general sale “ area is massively important to grow a fan base, there will always be casuals, fans who live overseas or far away, students, guests who can only attend a few games a season, these can’t be banned and it stops the production line of new supporters.

So there will be 26K seats made available to season ticket holders.
If we close down 10K seats in the Kop, then that’s 16K available to season ticket holders.

Let’s say we’ve currently sold 24K season tickets. We could give 8,000 season ticket holders a 2 year ban from attending a single home game or as you say nonbody would need to miss every single game.

Instead we could have a system where EVERY single season ticket holder is affected and they ALL have to miss roughly 40% of all home game, imagine the fans who haven’t missed a single game for 40 years and your idea is “sorry mate, needs must”. Also season ticket holders who sit with their mates would be relocated all around the ground with different people they’ve never met before.

Your idea would create a shoes off in the car park demonstration with loads boycotting the club or even jacking it all in.

Of course it would, Mr Hypothetical, of course it would...

If the seats remained general sale then affected ST holders would buy those seats.

You're not accounting for the South Stand upper tier being built, which is strange, because you did previously. And my suggestion has always been based on this being done first.

As supporters we should all want the club to be as good as possible. To oppose significant development and progress in favour of short term selfish reasons is inexcusable in my view.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Who's in favour of short term stabilisation on the pitch first?

 

[Ricky]

Who's in favour of short term stabilisation on the pitch first?

Me. We need to stay up for at least 2 seasons first.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Of course it would, Mr Hypothetical, of course it would...

If the seats remained general sale then affected ST holders would buy those seats.

You're not accounting for the South Stand upper tier being built, which is strange, because you did previously. And my suggestion has always been based on this being done first.

As supporters we should all want the club to be as good as possible. To oppose significant development and progress in favour of short term selfish reasons is inexcusable in my view.

Agree, some season ticket holders missing out can buy general sale BUT then that means the few 1000 casual fans who attend a few games a season are banned. Attracting casual fans, students, visitors should never be underestimated as there is evidence that tapping into these potential fans grows a fanbase.

Agree, building 5,400 seats in the South stand upper tier first would help but demand would still outstrip supply.

Also agree, that we should hope to make Bramall Lane as good as possible but where do you draw the line?
The lines are always drawn logically based on costs, revenues, potential revenues and return on investment.
This is the real world of business and economics.

Anyway you still haven’t answered what your proposed design provides compared to the current design
Apart from you believe a steeper rake will put fans closer to the pitch and improve atmosphere, possibly true but
I’d say a designated standing/ singing area would improve the atmosphere more.

Apologies if I’m coming across opinionated, it’s only my opinion and I appreciate anyone with different viewpoints
...even if they are wrong ha ha.

 

[Bert]

This type of remodeling would get Bert's vote

 

[Ricky]

Anyway you still haven’t answered what your proposed design provides compared to the current design
Apart from you believe a steeper rake will put fabs closer to the pitch and improve atmosphere.
I’d say a designated standing/ singing area would improve the atmosphere more.

I have. It would look great. It would sound great. It would get more fans standing up. It would make it more enjoyable for fans on the Kop, and elsewhere. It would transform the stadium - permanently. It would be an extremely powerful asset for the club.

A vocal area could be arranged on top of all this. There would be the freedom to relocate people.

Agree, some season ticket holders missing out can buy general sale BUT then that means the few 1000 casual fans who attend a few games a season are banned. Attracting casual fans, students, visitors should never be underestimated as there is evidence that tapping into these potential fans grows a fanbase.

A few less casual fans for a short period is nothing of a sacrifice! Creating an infrastructure which would help the club become a long term fixture in the PL is worth far more! Fanbase will never be a problem as long as we're a top flight club.

 

[RWE]

Completely agree about having a designated safe standing/singing section, which will guarantee a better atmosphere, whereas completely rebuilding the kop for millions has no definite benefits on atmosphere apart from slightly more leg room (I’m 6ft 2 and never had any problems for leg room... it’s only 90 minutes anyway) and aesthetics. I think the current plans are perfect when we become an established prem club (how long is that? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?) but I’d much rather have quality players and enjoy watching this once in a lifetime players and management for the sake of more leg room and because it looks better.

 

[Ricky]

The leg room issue is such a load of bollocks.

If people demand more leg room on the fucking Kop (where you should be stood up anyway) then they should be prepared to pay plenty more for their ticket. We could make it a second South Stand....

 

[Bert]

The leg room issue is such a load of bollocks

There speaks a short arse.

 

[Boxer Blade]

As a slight aside , the kop when full looks brilliant ,it is I believe one of the largest single tier stands in the country, on Saturday when wilder was being interviewed on the pitch the kop looked great, full of fans singing from left to right ,it really did look impressive.

 

[HighfieldBlade]

Could we not get Nick Knowles and his mob to do it ?
They don't muck about so there'd be no inconvenience and we could watch the highlights one Friday night.

We need the Sixty Minute Makeover crew in. They won't get rid of the unsightly pillars but they will accessorise with soft furnishings and strategically place mirrors to give the illusion of a light and airy space.

 

[Sheffsteel]

As a slight aside , the kop when full looks brilliant ,it is I believe one of the largest single tier stands in the country, on Saturday when wilder was being interviewed on the pitch the kop looked great, full of fans singing from left to right ,it really did look impressive.

Agree. To show some perspective here’s some info regards comparisons

Our Kop current capacity 10,221
Pigs Kop capacity 11,210
Liverpool’s famous Anfield Kop 12,390

The new design for our Kop capacity will be 13,421 (Eclipsing both Anfield and Swillsborogh)
It would have been the biggest single tier Kop in the UK but Spurs new ground has a kind of Kop stand and that holds 17K.

 

[Ricky]

There speaks a short arse.

Just someone who's always stood up.

But when I have sat on the Kop, I don't think the leg room is much different to anywhere else, apart from BLUT (steeper).

If it was that bad, they'd stand up or move to another part of the ground.

 

[bromtom]

Just on the matchday income means shit all in the Prem, true, but having a nice posh, big, full ground that attracts advertising and corporate people, also true.

So it'll be the South stand first, executive boxes and a second tier, and more/ better commentary positions in the middle of the second tier that aren't hanging off the roof.

Something like this

 

[Sheffsteel]

Agree Bromtom,

Our Kop has easily the worse facilities in the ground and from a fans point of view is the number 1 priority.

However the landscape has changed in recent years. It’s now all about money making corporate facilities and impressing VIP visitors.
So I believe the clubs number 1 priority is the South stand, the motivation isn’t to increase capacity, it’s to impress visitors.

Imagine arriving in the underground private car park, catching a lift to arrive in a state of the art media centre or luxurious corporate facilities with fantastic views of the ground. This type of stuff impresses potential buyers, the media team and journalists, potential managers and players. The current fashion seems to be the face of the club needs to be impressive, the more impressive the better.

The Kop will be relatively cheap to build but McCabe did say that there are surprisingly big savings if the 2 building projects are done at the same time. So he inferred both might be done together and capacity would hardly be affected because the stands are being built behind the current stands, similar to what Liverpool did last year.

 

[BritishSteel]

Who's in favour of short term stabilisation on the pitch first?

Has Billy`s zimmer frame broken again ?

 

[Selly]

So it'll be the South stand first, executive boxes and a second tier, and more/ better commentary positions in the middle of the second tier that aren't hanging off the roof.

Oooo, I don't like this. I'm used to the viewing angle from the current arrangement. It won't look right from further back...