Is promotion a poison chalice?

[LouTheBlade]

This is a subject that has been whispered by many for quite a while but it is something I have really started to think about. We all live for that opportunity, that dream to get promoted to "the promise land" of the Premier League but do we ever stop to consider the risk involved with competing at that level?

Its no secret that nearly every team that gets promoted and eventually comes back down suffers horrendous financial decline. This is more often than not, coupled with declining attendances, loss of TV revenue etc. etc. I could go on. The question I am starting to ask myself is, is it really worth it? Yes we know the gulf in quality and income is enourmous and we accept the territory that comes with being relegated but why do we chase the dream knowing that it will one day end in tears?

If we are truly honest with ourselves it will never end well and we know it. Eventually a club like ourselves or of equivalent stature will come back down, whether it be after 1 year, 5 or 10. The consequences of which will almost always be dire to catastrophic. We as a club have coped admirably in some aspects and have recovered from relegation slightly better than others, but that was after only spending a year there and not spending an enormous amount of money.

The top flight is so elitist now that not only does it fail to support its departing members but also has no relationship financially with the football league. We knew this would be the case at the formation of the Premier League but it is swallowing the essence of what english football was originally about. I personally am starting to come to the conclusion that there are worse things than being in the championship and if being in the PL comes at a cost then I would rather not be in it at all.

UTB

 

[AJM]

I definitely think there is some truth in this.

To me, the problem is the massive discrepancy in wages between the Premer League and Championship players.

As soon as a club acheives premier league status, players, both current and prospective, expect premeir lrague money. This is compounded by the, often incorrect, assumption that the more you pay a player the better he is.

Premier League contracts, even those that have built in penalty clauses in the event of relegation, are essentially unaffordable in the Championship. In addition, relegated players do not have an attraction to other clubs comensurate with their pay.

All parachute payments do is give you two more roles of the dice, before the inevitable pain hits.

What we are heading to is the Premier League becoming a closed shop of Emirs, Oligarchs and Chancers (witness Liverpool and Man Utd). I remember writing soemthing simialr on a martin Samuels blog about the Tevez affair some time ago.

However, I don't think promorion should be feared. Burnley have shown that if you refuse to play the big contracts game you can still build a team to challenge the bottom-mid premiership, without the self-fulfilling financial armageddon to follow (even when inevtiable relegation looms).

What you need now more than ever is good managment at all levels of the club, especially the football side, to ensure that if relegated, you stand a good chance of rolling a double 6 in the next two years to get a return ticket to the mad hatters tea party.

But above all, we must keep reminding ourselves not to get sucked into the modern football rhetoric. Remember why we go to football - for the beer, the banter, the screaming, the moaning, the joy, the pain. These are there to be enjoyed in any league, at any club. Count yourslef lucky that you don't need Andy Gray, Tim Lovejoy or DJ f***ing Spoony to tell you what to think.

Joy comes in moments - in small packages. We owe it to ourselves to make sure we recognise them when they arise, and drink them in, every last drop.

 

[broomhillblade]

You've pretty well summed up my views AJM.

Poisoned chalice or not - we can't turn it down if it comes our way.

 

[SotonBlade]

Surely the only way to try and lessen the gulf and create more competition between more teams, in terms of promotion and relegation anyway, would be to increase the number of teams in the top flight by creating a PL2, or merge the PL back into the Football League. However, we all know this is very unlikely, but would mean more money for more clubs, sharing the wealth.

 

[grafikhaus]

I think we're all aware of the pitfalls of nearly every club going into the PL. Apart from the 'big five', the rest are basically wasting their time and money. Teams like Spurs, Villa, Everton etc. spend millions for the occasional Carling Cup or a place in the Europa League (which they don't want when they get it).

The rest? Just making up the numbers, however much they delude themselves. Sure Stoke, Hull, Burnley etc. will wing it for a season or two. Then they get found out and down they go - with all the big salaries and contracts they've accrued in the 'season in the sun'.

The oft-quoted £35-£70m it is 'worth' getting into the PL all goes on players wages and agents.

If a player (or manager) does manage to shine, he's off (Jags, Coyle etc.).

Crowds will rise in the PL of course but, as we've seen they are largely the 'want it all and want it now' bunch who will fade away very quickly.

Increased media exposure? I think we all remember our regular 5 minute slot after midnight on MoTD and that idiot Crookes calling us NGE.

But, but...what's the point in not dreaming? It's human nature and a few more seasons in the Championship will cause interest to fade (if it hasn't already).

We all need ambition, but I know if I was offered the top job at, say Microsoft, I'd turn it down as I'd know I wasn't up to it.

 

[Ollessendro]

Excellent post AGM!

Lou I have to say I disagree with most of your sentiments. I understand why you have raised these issues but disagree (see below).

To answer your 1st question I think that we should stop to consider the risks. I think a smart, shrewd business man such as McCabe would (and in fact did). AJM points out that we should consider the risks but by no means do we have to face relagation and financial collapse.

2nd questions, 'is it really woth it?' Absolutely! Would you seriosuly rather be watching us play the likes of Watford, Scunthorpe and Blackpool rather than Man U, Spurs and Arsenal?

The follow up question relates to a point that you make Lou about 'Its no secret that nearly every team that gets promoted and eventually comes back down suffers horrendous financial decline'. But I disagree with that. Below is a list of clubs promoted in the last 5 years.

2004–05 Sunderland Wigan Athletic West Ham United
2005–06 Reading Sheffield United Watford
2006–07 Sunderland Birmingham City Derby County
2007–08 West Bromwich Albion Stoke City Hull City
2008–09 Wolverhampton Wanderers Birmingham City Burnley

The one's in italics are the one's that you described, but the one's in bold are clubs that have got promoted and got a foothold in the divisions. Examples such as Sunderland, Stoke and Wigan should give us hope that we can get promoted and stay there!

So Lou to answer the big question .... 'is promotion a poision challice?'. No it doesn't have to be. Of course it can be! But with sensible spending, financial management and a bit of luck there is no reason why we can'r get to the 'promised land'and stay there. I know that there are high profile examples such as Leeds, Wednesday, Reading, Watford and Charlton, but there are also Blackburn, Man City and Bolton.

 

[LouTheBlade]

So Lou to answer the big question .... 'is promotion a poision challice?'. No it doesn't have to be. Of course it can be! But with sensible spending, financial management and a bit of luck there is no reason why we can'r get to the 'promised land'and stay there. I know that there are high profile examples such as Leeds, Wednesday, Reading, Watford and Charlton, but there are also Blackburn, Man City and Bolton.

Some insightful views there and from AGM by the way. That was the sort of debate I was hoping to provoke. Although the views at the top of the board are primarily my own I was playing devil's advocate with some of them and I am not all doom and despair in terms of the prospect of promotion I assure you.

I loved our season in the PL and loved watching us up against the Spurs', Man United's and Arsenal's of this world. It was a great time to be a Blade. I just can't see us ever being a sustained force which begs the question - what is the point? In the current format the PL is set out to be a gold mine of achievment for the top 4 and the powers that be make sure it stays that way.

You're right, you can have a little success with hard work, good management and a bit of good luck but how much success and for how long? I know I know....its in the lap of the Gods and we can't predict the future but for me the potential pit-falls far outweigh the potential gains. When I was younger I was a romantic about the game and believed that with a combination of all the things we mentioned previously - United could one day win major silverware. As I am now approaching my mid 20's I just don't see it ever happening (unless the english game drastically alters).

A little morbid I know, but I believe I am starting to become a realist. I will always follow United. My blood runs red and white, all of my family have supported them for generations so my allegiances will always stay strong and I will turn out rain or shine for all games as ever. The only thing im going to do is stop dreaming and just concentrate on enjoying my football on a saturday, that way I will feel like im getting my moneys worth for a change.

 

[Revolution]

You're right, you can have a little success with hard work, good management and a bit of good luck but how much success and for how long? I know I know....its in the lap of the Gods and all we can't predict the future but for me the potential pit-falls far outweigh the potential gains.

This is the club for you then. the only risky bets we are making at the moment involve the value of commercial property.

As for what's the point of promotion - aren't you sick of this division? I know I am.

 

[mall]

Ollessendro.
I totally agree that the premier is the only place to be.
However, it's not how high you aim and fail, sadly, it's how low you aim and succeed.
That sums up United all the decades I've watched them...from John Harris's team making £13,000 profit a season to the sales of the two Kyles.
Very sad for the fans.

 

[LouTheBlade]

That sums up United all the decades I've watched them...from John Harris's team making £13,000 profit a season to the sales of the two Kyles.

It's like a perpetual cycle isn't it. Unfortunately we're the mugs - the ones with endless devotion that can't stop going. Its like paying to see a movie you've seen 18 times before.

 

[beechblade]

It's like a perpetual cycle isn't it. Unfortunately we're the mugs - the ones with endless devotion that can't stop going. Its like paying to see a movie you've seen 18 times before.

At least with this movie there is always that chance or possible glimmer of change.

UTB!

 

[AJM]

And you can always have popcorn and Nachos.

Mmmmm Nachos...............

 

[davidpinder]

This is a subject that has been whispered by many for quite a while but it is something I have really started to think about. We all live for that opportunity, that dream to get promoted to "the promise land" of the Premier League but do we ever stop to consider the risk involved with competing at that level?

Its no secret that nearly every team that gets promoted and eventually comes back down suffers horrendous financial decline. This is more often than not, coupled with declining attendances, loss of TV revenue etc. etc. I could go on. The question I am starting to ask myself is, is it really worth it? Yes we know the gulf in quality and income is enourmous and we accept the territory that comes with being relegated but why do we chase the dream knowing that it will one day end in tears?

If we are truly honest with ourselves it will never end well and we know it. Eventually a club like ourselves or of equivalent stature will come back down, whether it be after 1 year, 5 or 10. The consequences of which will almost always be dire to catastrophic. We as a club have coped admirably in some aspects and have recovered from relegation slightly better than others, but that was after only spending a year there and not spending an enormous amount of money.

The top flight is so elitist now that not only does it fail to support its departing members but also has no relationship financially with the football league. We knew this would be the case at the formation of the Premier League but it is swallowing the essence of what english football was originally about. I personally am starting to come to the conclusion that there are worse things than being in the championship and if being in the PL comes at a cost then I would rather not be in it at all.

UTB

Good post. Its something i talk about with friends a lot. I once spoke to some west brom fans on holiday and they hate going up. They have been more of a yo yo club then us and mostly hate the heartache of getting relegated. But as years go one the problem cause by relegation will get worse.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Good post. Its something i talk about with friends a lot. I once spoke to some west brom fans on holiday and they hate going up. They have been more of a yo yo club then us and mostly hate the heartache of getting relegated. But as years go one the problem cause by relegation will get worse.

Exactly my point, youve hit the nail on the head - it leaves a legacy of problems. The trouble with a lot of football fans is that they think in little boxes and assume that a team's finances are fine if they get relegated, sell all their best players for a combined £20M and stay active in the transfer market.....

The sad news is all clubs are riddled with debt and ours will be no different, just a little better than others. Its just not worth going up to some clubs but someone has to. It doesnt matter how much you spend when you go up, one way or another you still have to fork out and its very difficult to recoup the loss when you go down - its not as simple as just loads of players when you go down to balance the books. Look at Reading, they spent very modest sums when they went up and now they're in tatters financially.

We have sold all our best players (some for substantial sums) and we're still cutting our cloth now - its very costly that little adventure to the PL, very costly indeed.

 

[Kev Gee]

Surely the whole point of professional football is to compete at the highest level, and to aim for that.
Whats the point of being in the Championship if you dont aim for promotion? Arnt you cheating the fans?

 

[Cassius Kray]

Increased media exposure? I think we all remember our regular 5 minute slot after midnight on MoTD and that idiot Crookes calling us NGE.

Assessing media exposure by considering the amount of time we get on MOTD is rather missing the point. As a market England is practically saturated, and the benefits of increased media exposure there are negligible - it's irrelevant how much time we get on MOTD.

What does matter is the media exposure abroad, particularly in emerging markets, and there the difference between being in the Premier League (regardless of position) and not is massive. Living in Vietnam I've lost count of the number of times I've seen Burnley on TV this season, yet noone had the faintest idea who they were last season. The Premier League is followed by hundreds of millions of people across the globe - it's surely the biggest sporting competition on Earth - while the Championship is, in an international context, completely unknown. It's pretty hard to overstate the difference.

 

[Rapturian]

Surely the whole point of professional football is to compete at the highest level, and to aim for that.
Whats the point of being in the Championship if you dont aim for promotion? Arnt you cheating the fans?

my sentiments exactly. Well said!

 

[LouTheBlade]

Surely the whole point of professional football is to compete at the highest level, and to aim for that.
Whats the point of being in the Championship if you dont aim for promotion? Arnt you cheating the fans?

It should be Kev but english football doesnt promote a system that can sustain that anymore as I keep saying time and time again - the PL is elitist and they are only interested in maintaining the status quo. If they had any interest in keeping our game competitive via promotion and relegation, they would work more closely with the FL to make the game fairer but they dont do that.

Its not a question of the club cheating fans. The PL and the powers that be cheat the fans. They are making competing in the top flight harder and harder and will eventually kill competitive football in this country. That's what im getting at. We have to remember our best friend Richard Scidamark tried to take the PL out to the far east and various other nations. How would the likes of Plymouth Argyle and Preston North End be able to sustain that sort of expense (not even taking into account the cost to supporters). They don't want to be a part of our game anymore, they dont want sides like us in their league - so why are we constantly trying to get there. You wouldnt go to a party when youre not wanted would you?!

 

[tomtheblade]

If we are truly honest with ourselves it will never end well and we know it. Eventually a club like ourselves or of equivalent stature will come back down, whether it be after 1 year, 5 or 10.

I don't think there is an 'end' though, is there? It's not like all the league clubs have agreed to wrap up the leagues in 2050 and whoever has the best record at that point 'wins football'...

Sure, if we go up we may come down, then we might go up again, then we might go down...i could go on. We might go down to league 2 (or whatever it might be called), we might end up in Europe.. who knows? That's part of the excitement of football.

The most important part of football in my book is simply following the team, attending the matches and having a good day out. In the Prem the enjoyment is amplified because you gain more satisfaction from beating the best teams in front of the biggest crowds with the best atmosphere at Bramall Lane.

So yes, we can never be assured of complete and enduring success, but if i wanted that i would be a Man Utd fan, and god knows i'd much rather be a Blade anyday.

 

[LouTheBlade]

The most important part of football in my book is simply following the team, attending the matches and having a good day out. In the Prem the enjoyment is amplified because you gain more satisfaction from beating the best teams in front of the biggest crowds with the best atmosphere at Bramall Lane.

So yes, we can never be assured of complete and enduring success, but if i wanted that i would be a Man Utd fan, and god knows i'd much rather be a Blade anyday.

Tom I am humbled by these last two paragraphs and I totally agree with everything you have said. Hats off to you mate :thumbup:

 

[mattbianco1]

This is a subject that has been whispered by many for quite a while but it is something I have really started to think about. We all live for that opportunity, that dream to get promoted to "the promise land" of the Premier League but do we ever stop to consider the risk involved with competing at that level?

Its no secret that nearly every team that gets promoted and eventually comes back down suffers horrendous financial decline. This is more often than not, coupled with declining attendances, loss of TV revenue etc. etc. I could go on. The question I am starting to ask myself is, is it really worth it? Yes we know the gulf in quality and income is enourmous and we accept the territory that comes with being relegated but why do we chase the dream knowing that it will one day end in tears?

If we are truly honest with ourselves it will never end well and we know it. Eventually a club like ourselves or of equivalent stature will come back down, whether it be after 1 year, 5 or 10. The consequences of which will almost always be dire to catastrophic. We as a club have coped admirably in some aspects and have recovered from relegation slightly better than others, but that was after only spending a year there and not spending an enormous amount of money.

The top flight is so elitist now that not only does it fail to support its departing members but also has no relationship financially with the football league. We knew this would be the case at the formation of the Premier League but it is swallowing the essence of what english football was originally about. I personally am starting to come to the conclusion that there are worse things than being in the championship and if being in the PL comes at a cost then I would rather not be in it at all.

UTB

Don't agree sorry! Look at the league now compared to 10 years ago. How many new teams are there now that weren't...

Portsmouth, Fulham, Wigan, Stoke, Hull.

Or on a different note, how many "established" top flight teams are no longer there... Leicester, Soton, Leeds, Charlton, Norwich, Forest, Wednesday, Newcastle

I don't think its a poison chalice

P.S Not to mention yo-yo teams.. Sunderland, Brum, WBA etc..

 

[munksyb]

Hi guys, my first post.

Anyone remember my cousin David #4

Anyway, been a Blade since 1964, and within the ups & downs of the last 46 years, up until the last 10 or so, we could always realistically look to challenge up with the top 10 in the top league, but not anymore, and I would be astounded if we will ever again.
Notwithstanding the efforts of Kevin McCabe, I still dont think we will ever compete at the same level as the Man Utds etc .
To that end I look at Charlton / Leeds / Leicester / Portsmouth even the Wendy's, and realise that throwing money at unrealistic long term survival does not work.
When we last went up , some fans complained about the lack of ambition shown by the board, buty to be honest that was just realism, and had it not been for a spineless FA we would have survived the first year, and looked forward to another struggle the year after.
And thats another point , the FA are onlyy bothered about your Man utd / Liverpool / Chelsea / Arsenal / Spurs , the rest can go hang. compare what happened when Liverpool feilded a reduced squad against Fulham , ( effectively sending us down & Wolves against Man Utd. , the only thing they were bothered about was the affect it might have on Arsenal & Chelsea.

So for the last few years , including last year, I was of the opininion that Its great winning games in the Championship ( a real league ) , getting into the play-offs getting to a wembley final and losing.
And that would still be my hope.

I dont like the Premiership, and I dont want to risk my club by going up and struggling year on year just to survive, or breaking the bank.

We cant compete , and the FA aren't bothered about us competing with the top 6, as it might upset their elite.

Let them go and play in their own fantasy monopoly money league, and leave us to try and keep things competitive & realistic.

Blades to finish 3rd / 4th & lose in play off final........ I'lll live with that

In the 2 Kevins I trust

 

[Linz]

I have nothing to add but to say cheers to the contributors for an interesting topic of discussion. I've really enjoyed reading this one ...

Hi guys, my first post.

... and welcome to the forum

 

[tomtheblade]

We cant compete , and the FA aren't bothered about us competing with the top 6, as it might upset their elite.

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that it is precisely this attitude which will ensure we will never compete.

You can't silmultaneously dislike the big 4's domination of the league and at the same time give up on us ever achieving this, as one directly leads to the other.
In other words, if you're happy with us never progressing and staying where we are, then fair enough but then there's really no point complaining about the hierarchy, because you've already accepted it.

 

[shorehamview]

I can't see how an individual fan's apathy towards the top six clubs in the Premier League would impact one iota on Sheffield United's chances of making it into the top six.
I accept that it's hardly likely that we'll be one of the top six clubs in the country, and why? Because Kevin McCabe isn't an oil-rich Sheikh throwing money around on his latest plaything, or a Russian megalomaniac showing off, or an American who thinks teams can be bought, re-branded and sold willy-nilly.

Unless we get a very very rich idiot to buy the club we will never be a top six club. You don't have to like it to accept it. I would love United to be spunking money away like it's going out of fashion, but that's unlikely to happen. Even if I shut my eyes, click my heels three times and say "I wish I was in the Champion's League" it isn't going to happen solely because we believe.

 

[tomtheblade]

I can't see how an individual fan's apathy towards the top six clubs in the Premier League would impact one iota on Sheffield United's chances of making it into the top six.

Oh, of course not. It's nothing personal at all, my point was more to do with the general philosophy of a club than that of the individual, and what might occur depending on the philosophy we adopt.

I'm what you might call an optimistic realist, in that i accept where we are but hope during my lifetime we can achieve more and maybe win a bit of silverware at some point.

 

[grafikhaus]

- the PL is elitist and they are only interested in maintaining the status quo.

Agreed. And I'm beginning to think of the parallels between football and politics in this country.
The tiny elite call the shots have skewed the system so that their wealth is self-perpetuating and any reistance is crushed.

Then we have the average manager/MP (average in every sense of the word). They screw up yet there's always somebody willing to give them another go.

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Don't agree sorry! Look at the league now compared to 10 years ago. How many new teams are there now that weren't...

Portsmouth, Fulham, Wigan, Stoke, Hull.

Or on a different note, how many "established" top flight teams are no longer there... Leicester, Soton, Leeds, Charlton, Norwich, Forest, Wednesday, Newcastle

I don't think its a poison chalice

P.S Not to mention yo-yo teams.. Sunderland, Brum, WBA etc..

Portsmouth, bust
Fulham, living out of a billionaires pocket
Wigan, bust
Stoke, living out of a millionaires pocket
Hull, bust
Leicester, gone bust
Soton, gone bust
Leeds, gone bust
Charlton, bust
Norwich, bust
Forest, living out of a millionaires pocket
Wednesday, bust...

(not sure what this proves...)

I have sympathy with the view that jogging along in the top ten of the CCC year in year out wouldn't be too bad. Our comfort driving home from Wembley was that we would be able to see us win home games instead of starting our relegation battle with the first game of the season. But...the simple fact is that we have to strive for something better. We won't always have the money to do it with luxury, but once you stop trying to improve, then there is only one way to go, straight down.

I was once told by a wise man that the three most important things to remember about your dreams are never give up, never give up, never give up. As much as I dont feel the same disappointment about small matters that other posters seem to, I do want us to succeed and success is found by getting to the PL then by staying there, then by getting top half, then a European place etc etc.

The problem for us is that it takes an exponential investment to get to that point. So, pragmatism comes creeping in. We will do as well as we can, within the boundaries that are chosen by the board and chairman, and thats that. We might want the success that another £10m or £100m can bring, but the money is not coming. Time to cut the suit to the cloth.

However, I do still dream of a day when we will be competitive in the top half of the PL, and no-one can take that away from me...

 

[mattbianco1]

I dont like the Premiership, and I dont want to risk my club by going up and struggling year on year just to survive, or breaking the bank.

Firstly, welcome to the forum and the utmost respect for following the blades for so long but i don't agree with this.

The premiership IS our success. I'd rather be playing premiership footy week in week out anyday! That season other year was quality, edge of your seat nervousnous every game without fail. We wern't expected to win so when we drew it was fantastic never mind winning! I remember Fulham, tuesday night, we won! Very exciting game. The feeling of winning in that division is like no other on earth. Full ground every week. I just can't get excited by Plymouth or Blackpool or C.Palace at home on a cold Tuesday but whoever the opposition in the premiership is an exciting prospect.

Portsmouth, bust
Fulham, living out of a billionaires pocket
Wigan, bust
Stoke, living out of a millionaires pocket
Hull, bust
Leicester, gone bust
Soton, gone bust
Leeds, gone bust
Charlton, bust
Norwich, bust
Forest, living out of a millionaires pocket
Wednesday, bust...

(not sure what this proves...)

Me neither!! I know what i mean but can't explain.

I feel that Leicester, Leeds, Soton, Charlton, Norwich & Wednesday are where they are due to bad management & chairmen. Over spending and not spending well.

We missed out on safety by goal difference on the last day with Ahmed Fathi our "Big" january signing!!

If Warncok had kept us up that day he would've been a god doing so on that budget! Then we would've had money to spend to compete and progress.

I think that we are a bigger club with more of a fan base than Hull, fulham, wigan, burnley, wolves, stoke and maybe Portsmouth & Birmingham. The reason the likes of these clubs struggle is because they haven't got the fans OR in Portsmouth & Fulhams case the room to house them. The blades have both fans and room! That adds a lot of revenue to the club to top 30k capacity week in week out.

I honestly think if Jags hadn't handled in the area vs Wigan we would still be up there. And we can blame West Ham or Rob Styles or anybody else for that matter all we like but at the end of the day we failed to beat Wigan Athletic (a team with about 10,000 season ticket holders) at home on the last day, our fault nobody elses.

But if you want to be excited and witness edge of your seat action seeing the top players in the world play then the Premiership is the place to be...the promised land.

I'll be able to say to my grand kids in years to come that i saw Cristiano Ronaldo play and rooney and drogba, lampard, fabregas etc.. long after they're gone. Nobody's bothered about Blackpools Charlie Bloody Adam.

 

[DuncDisorderly]

... but at the end of the day we failed to beat Wigan Athletic (a team with about 10,000 season ticket holders) at home on the last day, our fault nobody elses.

If Nades goal at Christmas had beaten Wigan, and we'd lost to Arsenal on the last day, would you still think it was all our fault...