Lowering of expectations needed

[FlamingLip]

I don't think they parted ways with Wilder because he didn't get us promoted. It was more than that. It was more likely a culmination of various factors. If they see progress and think Selles is the man to get us up and keep us up then he'll unlikely be sacked if we miss out on automatic. I wish some people stopped thinking so linear in black and white and thought about the bigger picture overall. The fact they recently said we may need patience suggests that they're prepared that it may take Selles more than one season to get us out of this division.

For the record, I hope Selles is given a very fair crack next season. I'm not one for chop n change and have a ton of patience. More than, I dare say, our owners. They want a return.

 

[Tanny1889]

We’ve lost Souza, who while a good player is very replaceable. We get a powerhouse in there with Peck and Blaster we’ll be fine, just need 2 quality centre halves. That changes if Hamer leaves, but we get the above and the fitness to do 90 mins then we won’t be far off

 

[FlamingLip]

I'm saying last season's points total wouldn't be achieved again without an improved performance level and that the owners may have come to the same conclusion.

The other stuff is all you

OK. I was trying to understand how that opinion/conclusion would be shaping expectations on Selles.

 

[Carlton Blade]

OK. I was trying to understand how that opinion/conclusion would be shaping expectations on Selles.

I think the expectations will be that performances improve and the team is a legitimate contender

 

[Satan's Toilet Blade]

Putting the new manager to one side, as we aren’t sure what to expect from him, the board themselves could also prevent us from being better than last season

Not sure what we are going to get from these guys? They have given very little away of their intentions thus far.

Well, given very little away apart from £10M for Cannon, paying Choudhury's outrageous wages, also forking out for Ben Clarke, Rob Holding, and BBD. But allegedly they're cheapskates.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Again, United 24/25 was a complete outlier. Lowest scorers to achieve 90+ points in the Championship in 20 seasons, worst goal difference to do it too. Only 6 of 576 Championship teams over that period have ever had a better points per goals scored record.

Maybe the owners saw that and thought "hmm, that's not sustainable at all"

The stats you keep posting are fine, but the unsustainability goes both ways. The same football over a season may produce less points if played again, or we may have scored more goals.

Game state plays a big part in those stats. If we go 1-0 up early and rarely ever concede equalisers, we aren't pressured into scoring again.

 

[Blade58]

Satan's Toilet Blade, true and good point you make

They perhaps thought we were going up? We didn’t and now that we haven’t I wait to see what their intentions are going forward.

Up to now the 5 or so board members have said next to nowt. Souza leaving. Article peddling the message Hamer wants to be in the PL, so I ain’t spaffing my pants over our glorious leaders just yet.

Let’s see where we are when the season starts

 

[Blade45]

I'm excited to see what Selles does with some of the young players. He apparently has a good track record developing and playing youngsters.

I think Campbell will have another good season, and I hope Oli Arblaster bounces back. I'm excited to see what Andre Brooks can do, and I think Tom Cannon will be decent, if not completely fulfilling his price tag.

I'd say we could finish anywhere from 3rd at best to 8th at worst. That roughly evens out to 5th or 6th place, hopefully with some nice football.

 

[nopigfansintown]

My expectations is automatic. We have the makings of a fantastic squad that is already bedded in. This is summer two which will seen the magnificent foundations of summer/season one one added too (O'Hare, Campbell, Moore, Peck, Burrows, Seriki, McCallum, Cooper) irrespective of who is manager. I'd be shocked if there's a huge cost cutting exercise as FFP wise we should be fine due to academy player sales and the patent lack of ambition in the Prem. The wage structure is unlikely to be a huge worry as Souza,T Davies and Hamer are the only ones left who signed in the Prem. Brewster is up and T Davies is up next summer. Cannon is the only permanent from January when ambition increased, the loans have all gone.We sold and released a huge amount of players last season and went massively under staffed pre January. Ran our players into the ground, suffered injuries and was impacted as a result. Regardless of manager I think we go in hugely better prepared this year. This should manifest itself in a better return.

Added to that we should have T Davies and Arblaster available for more of the season. Whilst we have a top squad already we don't have an irreplaceable player. No Ndiaye. Hamer is the closest. The top of the division also looks substantially weaker. There's no Leeds or Burnley this year. We are the outlier club.everybody is scared of. I expect any outs to be replaced, for a number of ins notwithstanding, and for an automatic charge. That's the minimum expectation.

 

[Carlton Blade]

The stats you keep posting are fine, but the unsustainability goes both ways. The same football over a season may produce less points if played again, or we may have scored more goals.

Game state plays a big part in those stats. If we go 1-0 up early and rarely ever concede equalisers, we aren't pressured into scoring again.

Nothing in the underlying numbers from last years attacking performance showed the potential for growth. Outside the top 6 for shots on target, goals per shot, goals per SoT, xG, non penalty xG, key passes, passes into the final third, passes into the penalty area, progressive passes, progressive carries, shot creating actions, carries into the final 3rd, carries into the penalty area.

This was a mediocre attacking team in almost every aspect, that both anecdotally and quantifiably got worse as the season progressed and was almost helpless against the best teams

 

[AWetFlannel]

Nothing in the underlying numbers from last years attacking performance showed the potential for growth. Outside the top 6 for shots on target, goals per shot, goals per SoT, xG, non penalty xG, key passes, passes into the final third, passes into the penalty area, progressive passes, progressive carries, shot creating actions, carries into the final 3rd, carries into the penalty area.

This was a mediocre attacking team in almost every aspect, that both anecdotally and quantifiably got worse as the season progressed and was almost helpless against the best teams

But the underlying numbers don't take into account game state, so they wouldn't show the potential for growth. In the majority of games, growth was not necessary to achieve three points.

I'm not suggesting that actually we were a top attacking team and just didn't need to score more, just that the stats paint a bleaker picture than the reality. How many games were we desperately waiting to open the scoring late into the second half?

I'm barely even disagreeing with you and I'm a fan of stat based analysis myself, but they have their limits. We both know that Wilder can coach top attacking teams. Those in this thread (not you) suggesting that we'd have definitely been the same going forward next season aren't talking sense.

 

[Carlton Blade]

But the underlying numbers don't take into account game state, so they wouldn't show the potential for growth. In the majority of games, growth was not necessary to achieve three points.

I'm not suggesting that actually we were a top attacking team and just didn't need to score more, just that the stats paint a bleaker picture than the reality. How many games were we desperately waiting to open the scoring late into the second half?

I'm barely even disagreeing with you and I'm a fan of stat based analysis myself, but they have their limits. We both know that Wilder can coach top attacking teams. Those in this thread (not you) suggesting that we'd have definitely been the same going forward next season aren't talking sense.

Wilder hasn't done that in over half a decade and if he couldn't do it with the talent he had last season, I didn't see a route to improvement this season

 

[AWetFlannel]

Wilder hasn't done that in over half a decade and if he couldn't do it with the talent he had last season, I didn't see a route to improvement this season

Over half a decade sounds like a long time, but how many of those seasons were we capable of being a top attacking team with him in charge?

Cba to check the stats, but were his Middlesbrough team not impressive going forward in the first season? When he got sacked there, they started the season massively underperforming their xG, as opposed to us this season who didn't create that much to begin with.

I think very few managers at this level are completely incapable of coaching good attacking teams or changing the style. You can think it was worth rolling the dice without claiming to be 99% certain that Wilder can't possibly manage a team that scores more goals ever again.

 

[Eskimo]

We would have very reliably been top 3 or 4 if we'd just stuck with what we had and recruited predictably. But the hunger for change, any change, was just too hard to resist it seems and now absolutely anything could happen. The bar has been lowered considerably. We have a wider range of possibility - nothing down to mid table is off limits. We've simply gambled and nothing so far inspires confidence that it'll pay off

My thoughts entirely. Selles gets my support because he’s the boss the Board has chosen and I’m a Unitedite first and foremost. But …….

 

[Carlton Blade]

Over half a decade sounds like a long time, but how many of those seasons were we capable of being a top attacking team with him in charge?

Cba to check the stats, but were his Middlesbrough team not impressive going forward in the first season? When he got sacked there, they started the season massively underperforming their xG, as opposed to us this season who didn't create that much to begin with.

I think very few managers at this level are completely incapable of coaching good attacking teams or changing the style. You can think it was worth rolling the dice without claiming to be 99% certain that Wilder can't possibly manage a team that scores more goals ever again.

Ok. I'll take the knowledge of watching United play exceedingly cautious football under Wilder and being unable to hurt good teams, coupled with the underlying statistics as proof that he was reliant on the individual quality of excellent players, rather than being able to generate chances through innovative or even aggressive attacking.

He was a fantastic manager, one who made a group of players perform above their individual talent. He isn't anymore. He's not a bad manager, just one reliant on his players to uplift him, rather than the other way round

 

[Tickhill Blade]

Irrespective of when Sellés leaves us*, his replacement will not be Chris Wilder. That is a basic fact that a lot of our (well, Wilder's) fans need to wrap their heads around.

I desperately want Sellés to be successful because that will mean that we're successful. The problem is that a subset of Unitedites are so fucking parochial that they can't accept that there might be a better way of doing things than Bladey Pashun. There's no need for anyone joining to "get the club". That nonsense has gone.

*In my lifetime, only one United manager has been headhunted by a better club (Howard Kendall by Everton in 1997) and one has left for a national team role (Gary Speed to Wales in 2010). That is thoroughly shameful.

1983: Balham born
1986: Ian Porterfield sacked. Joins Aberdeen 8 months later.
1988: Billy McEwan sacked. Joins Division Four Rotherham almost immediately.
1995: Dave Bassett sacked. Joins fellow-Division One side Crystal Palace two months later.
1997: Howard Kendall leaves to take over at Premier League Everton
1998: Nigel Spackman resigns. This remains his only managerial role.
1999: Judas Bruce resigns to take a backwards step to Division One Huddersfield Town
2007: Neil Warnock leaves after his contract wasn't renewed. Out of work for five months.
2008: Bryan Robson sacked. Hasn't held another club managerial role
2010: Kevin Blackwell sacked. Out of work for 2 years.
2010: Gary Speed leaves to take over as Wales manager
2011: Mickey Adams sacked. Joins League Two Port Vale almost immediately
2013: Danny Wilson sacked. Joins Championship Barnsley 8 months later.
2013: David Weir sacked. This remains his only managerial role.
2015: Nigel Clough sacked. Takes over at League One Burton Albion six months later
2016: Nigel Adkins sacked. Takes over at Championship Humberside Jungle Cats 19 months later
2021: Chris Wilder sacked. Takes over at Championship Middlesbrough 8 months later
2021: Slaviša Jokanović sacked. Joins Dynamo Moscow 13 months later
2023: Paul Heckingbottom sacked. Joins Championship Preston 9 months later
2025: Chris Wilder sacked. No new role as yet.

You missed out the best of the lot

 

[Eskimo]

United 24/25 had the lowest goals scored and goal difference of the 31 teams to earn 90 or more points since 04/05

Wow we got 92 points didn’t we. When will we do that again in the Championship? Next year maybe?0

 

[Champagneblade]

Maybe they also subscribe to

"Put up a level of performance over a full season that, if repeated will likely draw a much lower points total and your position is up for review"?

What does "they've fucked it" even mean?

Parachute payments drop off. We lose our obvious competitive advantage.

There will be plenty of teams in there, as many as 6 that will have them and we won’t be one of them.

The time to bounce back is in the first two years after relegation.

This team was a team thrown together and gelling as the season went on. No saying that with the Lion’s share of recruitment for the XI now already done last summer that this season familiarity, continuity etc couldn’t have given an additional 10-20% in performance levels.

I’m just saying that is also a possibility given it will be other clubs facing a large overhaul rather than us.

 

[Champagneblade]

We’ve lost Souza, who while a good player is very replaceable. We get a powerhouse in there with Peck and Blaster we’ll be fine, just need 2 quality centre halves. That changes if Hamer leaves, but we get the above and the fitness to do 90 mins then we won’t be far off

This is the Problem at times with United.

Souza is replaceable. So where’s the replacement.

If you’re clever then he’s either already in the door or well on his way. You don’t just start looking once he’s gone.

I’m just gonna keep my council on the new owners until we kick off the season.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

I know we all want to move away from one bloke (Wilder) with his hand on the tiller. But I think what we are going miss greatly with this new regime, is the all important personal touch, of which the previous manager had in spades…I think potential new players like all that.

 

[Nick Jansky]

I know we all want to move away from one bloke (Wilder) with his hand on the tiller. But I think what we are going miss greatly with this new regime, is the all important personal touch, of which the previous manager had in spades…I think potential new players like all that.

What makes you think Selles and his staff don’t have a personal touch with players?

 

[John Street West Terrace]

How many other clubs ownership come out over the summer and say this is the plan?

They made a statement after the Wembley defeat saying that they would go again and they’re here for the long haul. That’s enough. We don’t need to hear from them every week.

We don’t need to know the plan. Let them do the talking on the pitch.

Wait and see what the squad looks like when the window shuts.

Have I not just said let’s see what happens over the next 6 weeks ??

I did say in an early post I don’t want a weekly update so fair dos if you didn’t see that ?

The only statement they’ve posted out is fans need to be patient & this won’t sit well with some .. not exactly the most detailed mission statement , so throwing a little bit more light on it for the paying customer is not exactly the biggest ask in the modern world of communications & fan engagement ?

 

[Seth Rollins]

Its quite simple. Its promotion or your sacked.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Its quite simple. Its promotion or your sacked.

No, it's not. Otherwise Wilder could have been fired the day after the PO final.

It's amost like the owners gave careful consideration to lots of factors before coming to a decision. Huge if true

 

[Shawy24]

You missed out the best of the lot
View attachment 215095

Arr Aidy?

 

[DeanLearner'sCat]

Last season, the narrative on here was that any manager would've finished top 3 with our squad and that we had the players to be playing more attractive football. So shouldn't we be playing winning/entertaining football straight away?

 

[ben1987]

Have I not just said let’s see what happens over the next 6 weeks ??

I did say in an early post I don’t want a weekly update so fair dos if you didn’t see that ?

The only statement they’ve posted out is fans need to be patient & this won’t sit well with some .. not exactly the most detailed mission statement , so throwing a little bit more light on it for the paying customer is not exactly the biggest ask in the modern world of communications & fan engagement ?

Apologies I didn’t see your earlier posts. Finding all the negativity and moaning around the club quite draining this summer.

This is not aimed at you in particular just some of the shite people have been coming out with all summer

Our fans:
Just sign someone -
It’s the first week of July. By this time last year we’d just signed Shackleton and that’s it. Historically we’ve barely signed anyone by the point due to holidays, which applies to the rest of football as well

Owners need to make a statement -
Owners make a statement
Fans - no not that statement

Why haven’t we signed Poku?
Well been as only QPR and Swansea really seems to want him perhaps that’s why

Why haven’t we signed Tommy Doyle?
Our current midfield consists of Arblaster, Hamer, Davies, Peck. Who does Doyle displace there? No one. He’s a decent if unspectacular midfielder and probably not worth £10m upon promotion.

The owners are skint and won’t spend anything.
Yeah well the skint owners sanctioned 7 signings in January one with a <£10m fee and another one with a £10m option to buy making us the highest potential spenders in the division for their first window. They’ve not panic sold anyone. We already had a strong squad it just needs a few finishing touches. The right players not a scatter gun sign anyone and everyone approach.

There’s absolutely nothing to suggest we are skint or have anything at all to worry about and yet 75% of posters are fixated on finding anything at all negative to beat the club with instead of acting like adults and applying common sense. It really does make us look a little pathetic

 

[nopigfansintown]

Last season, the narrative on here was that any manager would've finished top 3 with our squad and that we had the players to be playing more attractive football. So shouldn't we be playing winning/entertaining football straight away?

We're actually in a much better position.

1) Takeover completed. No two lists. No missing out on new players and renewals due to not knowing who owns us.

2) Unlikely to go into season massively short on numbers/ basic fitness like last season

3) Cooper, Seriki, Peck, Burrows, Campbell, Moore, Cannon, McCallum, O'Hare in situ and bedded in/developed.

4) Arblaster and T Davies likely to play a bigger part

5) The massive opportunity of a second summer window to build on all the above. No relying on a massive influx of Jan loan signings with all the associated risks of buying in that unfavorable window. If we can finish third with one summer window the expectation is to improve after another

6) Fitness/injury concerns unlikely to be as big an issue due to bigger squad size and having players in situ.

7) Much weaker competition at the top of the league.

The notion that we have a last parachute year with no expectation of automatic seems fanciful. The owner's stated goal is promotion and consolidation. This season is logically the best chance

The above could change if the owner's take a wrecking ball to the squad selling all our best players without adequately replacing them. I don't see it.

 

[Carlton Blade]

This is the Problem at times with United.

Souza is replaceable. So where’s the replacement.

If you’re clever then he’s either already in the door or well on his way. You don’t just start looking once he’s gone.

I’m just gonna keep my council on the new owners until we kick off the season.

"Keeping your council" apart from everything you wrote in your post?

 

[Carlton Blade]

Last season, the narrative on here was that any manager would've finished top 3 with our squad and that we had the players to be playing more attractive football. So shouldn't we be playing winning/entertaining football straight away?

I'd certainly expect that 49 games in, a manager would have figured out a plan to make that collection of players into a consistent attacking team that could control games.

If they couldn't, I'd be asking some difficult questions about why next time would be different. Wouldn't you?

But Selles gets 0 games?