CONFIRMED Iliman Ndiaye signs new contract to 2024

[robbiez666]

Think we’ll use beerschot and chateauroux as the pathway for foreign youngsters who need work permits and domestic youngsters from other clubs for the purpose of compo dodging. Sending our own youngsters abroad is an extra level of complication in their development which could have a detrimental effect depending on their personality.

Did Lowton no harm and I think some players would definitely benefit from playing competitive football in a different environment. Depends on the player, position and timing, but the way we currently loan players out (including Broadbent at Beerschot) is often rubbish. I don't see the point of loaning players to warm benches (Slater and Smith as well). Sending kids to non-league teams unless there's a specific need.

 

[Yogi]

Did Lowton no harm and I think some players would definitely benefit from playing competitive football in a different environment. Depends on the player, position and timing, but the way we currently loan players out (including Broadbent at Beerschot) is often rubbish. I don't see the point of loaning players to warm benches (Slater and Smith as well). Sending kids to non-league teams unless there's a specific need.

That’s true it made lowton but he was quite old at the time he went on loan. It’d be like loaning RND or smith now which I think both could cope with just maybe not the really young lads. It’s tricky in terms of loaning players to warm benches because obviously they have to earn a place whilst they’re there but due to the level the 23’s play at they’re clearly too good for that level so they need a stiffer challenge elsewhere.

 

[Deadly_D'Jaffo]

I think Dyer barely played for us, made an appearance at the Lane, played really well and then Blackwell didn’t extend his loan or make it permanent, much to the surprise and consternation of the supporters. Similarly, I recall it was Blackwell who had problems with Cotterill, I don’t remember supporters being particularly against him. Britton was never a creative player, he was a sitting midfielder who played in front of the defence for Swansea.

Your point about strikers is more about managers than supporters.

During the Warnock, Robson & Blackwell era I heard a lot of vocal abuse towards anyone who tried to pick the ball up and try something other then lump it or pass it sideways. It was one of the contributory reasons I used to leave the ground (especially in the Blackwell era) bewildered as to why I didn't enjoy a home win. As with most opinions, it's based on personal experience.

For the same reasons, the Wilder era was superb. We could play exciting football that won games but let's not kid ourselves that anyone who tried something different didn't catch some verbal diarrhoea from the knucklescrapers. Mark Duffy, who even on an off day, was central to how good we were but even he caught some flack.

This is where I did/do agree with Pinchy's sentiment about us being a club steeped in the culture of 'gerritforrud, gerritintbox'.

 

[BushBlade]

That’s true it made lowton but he was quite old at the time he went on loan. It’d be like loaning RND or smith now which I think both could cope with just maybe not the really young lads. It’s tricky in terms of loaning players to warm benches because obviously they have to earn a place whilst they’re there but due to the level the 23’s play at they’re clearly too good for that level so they need a stiffer challenge elsewhere.

Lowton was 19 when he went to Fradi. Broadbent is 20. I think the Belgian league now may be of a higher standard than the Hungarian league was then, but I’m not sure about that.

 

[Deadly_D'Jaffo]

Technically gifted and Dean Windass in the same sentence. Wow.

Lucky swing

 

[robbiez666]

That’s true it made lowton but he was quite old at the time he went on loan. It’d be like loaning RND or smith now which I think both could cope with just maybe not the really young lads. It’s tricky in terms of loaning players to warm benches because obviously they have to earn a place whilst they’re there but due to the level the 23’s play at they’re clearly too good for that level so they need a stiffer challenge elsewhere.

Agreed, we shouldn't really be sending kids abroad. But, when players reach 20-22 they are at a point where they've probably already been on a loan to a lower league club and probably not been wholly successful. We tend to send players out (Smith, Slater) to clubs but then just send them to a similar club the next season. If they're not developing but you're hoping for a breakthrough I think abroad is a good option. Belgium/Dutch leagues, for example have some really good clubs but also some distinctly average ones. As long as they're good enough to start for said team, then they're going to get match time and also play against some top players. You could probably chuck Scotland in there as well.

The U-23 and U-18 levels we play at are so poor. We really need to focus on improving this. I assume one of the reasons we field younger teams is the strength of the opposition. It has clearly not worked so far. The U-23 need a much bigger challenge than they're getting. How we do this quickly, I don't know. We could farm players out but they'll be going to non-league or maybe a few in League 2 but not starting.

 

[Deadly_D'Jaffo]

I thought it was more unfair ignoring Laurens Ten-Heuvels seeing that Paul Shaw is on the list.

I watched Paul Shaw play during his rare outings for us. See if you can borrow a login to access our match libraries and try it yourself

 

[Yogi]

Lowton was 19 when he went to Fradi. Broadbent is 20. I think the Belgian league now may be of a higher standard than the Hungarian league was then, but I’m not sure about that.

That’s true and maybe the french second division might be more appropriate I don’t see any of the u23s at the club staking a claim in the Belgian top division next year.

 

[Yogi]

Agreed, we shouldn't really be sending kids abroad. But, when players reach 20-22 they are at a point where they've probably already been on a loan to a lower league club and probably not been wholly successful. We tend to send players out (Smith, Slater) to clubs but then just send them to a similar club the next season. If they're not developing but you're hoping for a breakthrough I think abroad is a good option. Belgium/Dutch leagues, for example have some really good clubs but also some distinctly average ones. As long as they're good enough to start for said team, then they're going to get match time and also play against some top players. You could probably chuck Scotland in there as well.

The U-23 and U-18 levels we play at are so poor. We really need to focus on improving this. I assume one of the reasons we field younger teams is the strength of the opposition. It has clearly not worked so far. The U-23 need a much bigger challenge than they're getting. How we do this quickly, I don't know. We could farm players out but they'll be going to non-league or maybe a few in League 2 but not starting.

So yeah I think the older academy boys probably could get game time abroad and might benefit from it.

I believe the rationale behind playing young sides at academy level is they will be at a physical disadvantage in comparison tho their opponents and so have to compensate for that by being technically better. It will also reduce the shock from going into men’s football as they’ll be used to playing against bigger and stronger players.

I think it’s fair to say that this policy has worked and created a young but dominant group of players for their age group and level. The academy staff now need to show they can also take care of the next step and find quite a few of these players brunt, Gordon, graham, amissah, dewhurst and boyes loan moves where they can get first team action. Ideally we’d jump up in academy status but that will take significant infrastructure investment.

 

[Rodley]

I watched Paul Shaw play during his rare outings for us. See if you can borrow a login to access our match libraries and try it yourself

Saw him, I thought he was poor to be honest. Didn’t have the touch for a number 10, didn’t have the finishing to be a striker, didn’t have pace or dribbling skill at all. He’s better than Luke Beckett and Geoffrey Horsfield in the Neil Warnock World of Forwards emporium, but only marginally so IMHO.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

One of the more experienced Academy Youngsters, George Broadbent, is already on loan at Beerschot. Although he has barely had a kick in the First Team. George had already done his stint in the non league loan pathway at Curzon Ashton.

Another, Sam Graham, went to Australia as an 18 year old.

 

[BushBlade]

The U-23 and U-18 levels we play at are so poor. We really need to focus on improving this. I assume one of the reasons we field younger teams is the strength of the opposition. It has clearly not worked so far. The U-23 need a much bigger challenge than they're getting. How we do this quickly, I don't know. We could farm players out but they'll be going to non-league or maybe a few in League 2 but not starting.

Part of the challenge of being a professional player is forcing your way into the first team. Slater did it at Carlisle, RND has done it at Barrow, Rochdale and Luton.
History shows us that most youth players don’t make it, or only make it at low level, like Elliott Whitehouse and Ironside. The ones that make it at the top level tend to show their quality even at a young age and are usually capable of playing at L1/2 level early on.
That's what will happen with this crop. One or two will stand out and maybe get as high as the PL, some will be good enough for the lower leagues and may eventually work their way up, some will play their whole careers at National League/L2 level and some will drift out of the game. If we get three players who are good enough for our first team, we’ll have done well.

 

[Deadly_D'Jaffo]

Saw him, I thought he was poor to be honest. Didn’t have the touch for a number 10, didn’t have the finishing to be a striker, didn’t have pace or dribbling skill at all. He’s better than Luke Beckett and Geoffrey Horsfield in the Neil Warnock World of Forwards emporium, but only marginally so IMHO.

I'd disagree about his touch & dribbling (technical) ability and I'd agree regarding his finishing and pace. That was the issue, he excelled playing a deeper role for Gillingham as a playmaker but Warnock, always impulsive for a bargain, snapped him up for a pittance despite the fact we never played that sort of system. Not too dissimilar to what Wilder did with Callum Robinson (wide) and Luke Freeman (attacking mid. knowing we'd go flat 3).

He did have a spell in the side where he scored a few as a striker but it was frustrating to watch square pegs put into round holes.

 

[BushBlade]

I'd disagree about his touch & dribbling (technical) ability and I'd agree regarding his finishing and pace. That was the issue, he excelled playing a deeper role for Gillingham as a playmaker but Warnock, always impulsive for a bargain, snapped him up for a pittance despite the fact we never played that sort of system. Not too dissimilar to what Wilder did with Callum Robinson (wide) and Luke Freeman (attacking mid. knowing we'd go flat 3).

He did have a spell in the side where he scored a few as a striker but it was frustrating to watch square pegs put into round holes.

1991–1997	Arsenal	12	(2)
1995	→ Burnley (loan)	9	(4)
1995	→ Cardiff City (loan)	6	(0)
1995–1996	→ Peterborough United (loan)	12	(5)
1997–2000	Millwall	109	(25)
2000–2004	Gillingham	125	(26)
2004–2006	Sheffield United	35	(8)
2004	→ Rotherham United (loan)	9	(2)
2006	Rotherham United	17	(4)
2006–2007	Chesterfield	30	(4)
2007	Oxford United	10	(2)
2008–2010	Ferencváros	48	(21)
2010–2011	Retford United	12	(3)
2011	F.C. New York	6	(0)

I don’t think his subsequent career showed him to be anything but a lower league journeyman tbh.

 

[Deadly_D'Jaffo]

1991–1997	Arsenal	12	(2)
1995	→ Burnley (loan)	9	(4)
1995	→ Cardiff City (loan)	6	(0)
1995–1996	→ Peterborough United (loan)	12	(5)
1997–2000	Millwall	109	(25)
2000–2004	Gillingham	125	(26)
2004–2006	Sheffield United	35	(8)
2004	→ Rotherham United (loan)	9	(2)
2006	Rotherham United	17	(4)
2006–2007	Chesterfield	30	(4)
2007	Oxford United	10	(2)
2008–2010	Ferencváros	48	(21)
2010–2011	Retford United	12	(3)
2011	F.C. New York	6	(0)

I don’t think his subsequent career showed him to be anything but a lower league journeyman tbh.

Born in 73 so he was around 34 years of age when he left us.

It's dawned on me that I am researching and passionately defending Paul f******g Shaw against random blokes on the internet.

Ain't Lockdown great.

 

[Revolution]

I'd disagree about his touch & dribbling (technical) ability and I'd agree regarding his finishing and pace. That was the issue, he excelled playing a deeper role for Gillingham as a playmaker but Warnock, always impulsive for a bargain, snapped him up for a pittance despite the fact we never played that sort of system. Not too dissimilar to what Wilder did with Callum Robinson (wide) and Luke Freeman (attacking mid. knowing we'd go flat 3).

He did have a spell in the side where he scored a few as a striker but it was frustrating to watch square pegs put into round holes.

He would have been perfect for the “Duffy role”. Warnock didn’t know how to use him.

He was decent in 2004-5. Second top scorer I think.

 

[mancunianblade]

Disagree with the notion that you shouldn’t send kids abroad. Look at the trend of young players going to Germany. Seems like it’s doing wonders for the majority..

I think one of the key factors is many of the teams in Germany and many other European cities for that matter are in dull places so football remains the main focus with little distraction and the standard is also very high.

 

[BushBlade]

Born in 73 so he was around 34 years of age when he left us.

It's dawned on me that I am researching and passionately defending Paul f******g Shaw against random blokes on the internet.

Ain't Lockdown great.

Bloody hell, no wonder he was bald. The only time he really held down a place though was at Gillingham in L1. He was in and out at Millwall in the championship. Anyway, you’re right, he doesn’t warrant a day’s worth of argument.

 

[robbiez666]

Part of the challenge of being a professional player is forcing your way into the first team. Slater did it at Carlisle, RND has done it at Barrow, Rochdale and Luton.
History shows us that most youth players don’t make it, or only make it at low level, like Elliott Whitehouse and Ironside. The ones that make it at the top level tend to show their quality even at a young age and are usually capable of playing at L1/2 level early on.
That's what will happen with this crop. One or two will stand out and maybe get as high as the PL, some will be good enough for the lower leagues and may eventually work their way up, some will play their whole careers at National League/L2 level and some will drift out of the game. If we get three players who are good enough for our first team, we’ll have done well.

I think the problem we have is that because our youth and development teams are lagging so far behind our peers (because of under-investment and the consequence of a rapid ascent) that they're not getting the challenge they need to develop in the U-18/23s and yet might not be at the level to go out on loan to a decent level.

Slater is a good example of a player who could go either way. He's still 21 but after a good spell at Carlisle struggled a bit at Scunthorpe and now a substitute for a successful Hull side. There a difference between competing for a position and cover. He's getting a decent run-out most weeks but we'd really need him to be playing a lot more. Over the last few years, we seem to have loaned out quite a few players to seemingly the wrong clubs. In Slater's case, I'm sure he's benefited from this season, but if he's still around next year then he'll be back to League 1.

 

[BushBlade]

I think the problem we have is that because our youth and development teams are lagging so far behind our peers (because of under-investment and the consequence of a rapid ascent) that they're not getting the challenge they need to develop in the U-18/23s and yet might not be at the level to go out on loan to a decent level.

Slater is a good example of a player who could go either way. He's still 21 but after a good spell at Carlisle struggled a bit at Scunthorpe and now a substitute for a successful Hull side. There a difference between competing for a position and cover. He's getting a decent run-out most weeks but we'd really need him to be playing a lot more. Over the last few years, we seem to have loaned out quite a few players to seemingly the wrong clubs. In Slater's case, I'm sure he's benefited from this season, but if he's still around next year then he'll be back to League 1.

Maybe they’re the wrong clubs or maybe the players just aren’t good enough. In some cases maybe a bit of both.
I am disappointed how we’ve failed to invest in the academy, we’ve got a great reputation for developing kids and some really good coaches. I hope that if we get promoted in the next couple of seasons, we prioritise it.

 

[S64 Blade]

He would have been perfect for the “Duffy role”. Warnock didn’t know how to use him.

He was decent in 2004-5. Second top scorer I think.

This was the season where Warnock had a squad full of bald/balding players wasn’t it?

Shaw, Cullip, Wright, Kenny, Cadamarteri, Quinn and Armstrong.

 

[Bladeloyal]

What sort of player was he then? Target man?

Golfer

 

[robbiez666]

Maybe they’re the wrong clubs or maybe the players just aren’t good enough. In some cases maybe a bit of both.
I am disappointed how we’ve failed to invest in the academy, we’ve got a great reputation for developing kids and some really good coaches. I hope that if we get promoted in the next couple of seasons, we prioritise it.

I think we need to prioritise it regardless. Given our limited funds we need to plan for the future. We should be up in the second division with the likes of Middlesbrough, Stoke, Sunderland etc. The only way this club will ever have a chance at competing at the top level if our development and training is sport on.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I'll make one point about upgrading our Academy to Cat 1. There is a widely held belief that the Shirecliffe site is not big enough for the expansion necessary to pass a Cat 1 Audit. (Although, personally I've never seen that in absolute Chapter & Verse). I've seen Utd games at PDL Cat 2 level at Leeds United & Burnley. Both of those clubs have very recently upgraded to Cat 1 - on the same, existing sites (unless I'm mistaken). United are at a financial disadvantage in that they'd have to BUY a new site & DEVELOP that new site. Leeds and Burnley had the existing space, so only had to DEVELOP an existing site.

 

[Pedro Verde]

I think Dyer barely played for us, made an appearance at the Lane, played really well and then Blackwell didn’t extend his loan or make it permanent, much to the surprise and consternation of the supporters.

Dyer hardly played for us. He had a stormer of a game away at Wolves at the very end of his loan spell
Im pretty certain Blackwell wanted to extend it but Dyer refused as he hadnt been given much game time and went elsewhere

During the Warnock, Robson & Blackwell era I heard a lot of vocal abuse towards anyone who tried to pick the ball up and try something other then lump it or pass it sideways. It was one of the contributory reasons I used to leave the ground (especially in the Blackwell era) bewildered as to why I didn't enjoy a home win. As with most opinions, it's based on personal experience.

Ive never heard much vocal abuse to any good creative player at BDTBL.
I didnt enjoy the football under Robson and Blackwell
Im all for passing football but did raise concerns over Weir when we played Atromotis in a friendly and we were passing the ball along our own six yard box I thought we would never get away with playing that sort of football in L1

For the same reasons, the Wilder era was superb. We could play exciting football that won games but let's not kid ourselves that anyone who tried something different didn't catch some verbal diarrhoea from the knucklescrapers.

Again I didnt hear any vocal abuse in how we were playing under Wilder whilst there have been fans in the ground at the end of the day it was winning football and great to watch football most of the time

I must sit in a different part of the ground

 

[robbiez666]

I'll make one point about upgrading our Academy to Cat 1. There is a widely held belief that the Shirecliffe site is not big enough for the expansion necessary to pass a Cat 1 Audit. (Although, personally I've never seen that in absolute Chapter & Verse). I've seen Utd games at PDL Cat 2 level at Leeds United & Burnley. Both of those clubs have very recently upgraded to Cat 1 - on the same, existing sites (unless I'm mistaken). United are at a financial disadvantage in that they'd have to BUY a new site & DEVELOP that new site. Leeds and Burnley had the existing space, so only had to DEVELOP an existing site.

I suspect that we'll have to move everything tbh. Regular comments about lack of size across the training facilities and academy. If we're not prepared to move somewhere like Norton then we'll probably never be any bigger than we are.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I suspect that we'll have to move everything tbh. Regular comments about lack of size across the training facilities and academy. If we're not prepared to move somewhere like Norton then we'll probably never be any bigger than we are.

Sometimes, when I listen to the arguments, with all the amateur decoding of Wilder's hidden messages in press conferences, I feel people don't distinguish enough between a) a first team training complex, with space for all the luxury cars, and a Michelin starred canteen, and offices for personal image consultants, and a roof that doesn't leak and b) an Academy, where kids can learn to play, plastic pitches, cages, offices for many different coaches, enough grass pitches for all the age groups, and a roof that doesn't leak. Some clubs have used space better by clearly separating the two, on two different sites. Maybe we could do that - keep Shirecliffe for one thing, new site for the other.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

(and, again, while we're on the subject of training ground/academy facilities)
I've only been on TWO sites which had a licenced bar for spectators & visitors. Neither were Cat 1.

 

[robbiez666]

Sometimes, when I listen to the arguments, with all the amateur decoding of Wilder's hidden messages in press conferences, I feel people don't distinguish enough between a) a first team training complex, with space for all the luxury cars, and a Michelin starred canteen, and offices for personal image consultants, and a roof that doesn't leak and b) an Academy, where kids can learn to play, plastic pitches, cages, offices for many different coaches, enough grass pitches for all the age groups, and a roof that doesn't leak. Some clubs have used space better by clearly separating the two, on two different sites. Maybe we could do that - keep Shirecliffe for one thing, new site for the other.

it's a fair point. I suspect it would be better for the kids to be at least around the first team players regularly though, even is that's just the U-23s and U-18s.

 

[Dore Blade]

Found this on youtube, sorry if posted before. I know loads of kids can have all the skills at a young age and fade away, just thought it was interesting to watch.