Ched Evans: How many goals for ANOTHER chance here?

[BladeInIreland]

I wouldn't agree that there isn't anything normal in sexual activity. You are listing a number of examples which might not be uncommon, but I wouldn't say they've got to the point of being "normal". As you say "not unheard of", but that's a long way from normal. All these instances have to be judged on their own merits. Just because one situation is ok, doesn't mean a similar situation is. And there are probably many occasions where one of these situations could land a man in court accused of rape. Some men probably need to be less blasé about making sure they have a woman's consent, especially where alcohol is concerned.

As I understand it, the verdict was overturned because the defence said the new witness evidence showed that Evans testimony about what she said to him matched what she had said on different occasions during sex with others. Therefore he wasn't making it up and if he had believed that her instructions to him constituted consent then it could be adjudged not to be rape.
The controversy is that the new evidence could not be introduced without suggesting to the jury that she was a bit of a slapper. You can't be sure that members of the jury aren't going to hold that against her.
Personally, I believe that the new evidence played very little role in the second verdict. The jury requested the video footage of her entering the hotel, which suggests to me that they were considering whether she was really too drunk to consent, or at least whether she appeared too drunk. That combined with the pointlessness of finding him guilty when he'd already served time made their decision fairly easy. But that is purely my opinion of how it went in the jury room.

I'm going to stop arguing about what's normal and not, were obviously not going to agree. However I'm interested still on what you said about the trial.
Do we know what she said to him and other people?

 

[Sean Thornton]

I'm going to stop arguing about what's normal and not, were obviously not going to agree. However I'm interested still on what you said about the trial.
Do we know what she said to him and other people?

We know what was testified too.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I'm going to stop arguing about what's normal and not, were obviously not going to agree. However I'm interested still on what you said about the trial.
Do we know what she said to him and other people?

My memory is a bit rusty on it all. According to Evans, she told him to go down on her first, then she gave him some other instruction. The witnesses testified that she would often give instructions. I seem to remember the actual testimony was more graphic than that; "f me harder" and such like.

 

[BladeInIreland]

My memory is a bit rusty on it all. According to Evans, she told him to go down on her first, then she gave him some other instruction. The witnesses testified that she would often give instructions. I seem to remember the actual testimony was more graphic than that; "f me harder" and such like.

Cheers for the information. Personally I see that as relevant information.

 

[8lade]

a bit like Billy then

True (and I considered the comparison before posting) however Sharp scored some screamer's last year whereas Evans needs to go back a few years!

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Cheers for the information. Personally I see that as relevant information.

It is very relevant, it appears to be the key part for the case for the defence. What I have never understood, is why his testimony about what she said was never doubted on the basis that he had stood and watched for a while, and I believe was previously watching from the window, which means he would know how she behaved during sex anyway. I'm not saying I don't believe him, it just seemed odd to me.
In my view, even if you believe it, and believe that she appeared to be not too drunk, I think that at the point she was supposed to have given him consent through her instructions, she had been manipulated into a position where she could not reasonably be expected to give consent and that, as one of the manipulators, Evans could not have reasonable belief in her consent because he had no intention of getting it.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

True (and I considered the comparison before posting) however Sharp scored some screamer's last year whereas Evans needs to go back a few years!

From what I remember of his good year, the team was set up around him being chief goal poacher. I don't think Wilder will ever set up a team in the same way. People may have expectations of him that are simply too high.

 

[Willie Carlin]

Can’t see what all this as got to do with the lad scoring goals. He’s been proven innocent by the law of the land. Some seem to fancy their selves as judge and jury. Get Ched back for his football

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Can’t see what all this as got to do with the lad scoring goals. He’s been proven innocent by the law of the land. Some seem to fancy their selves as judge and jury. Get Ched back for his football

"proven innocent". Fancy ourselves as judge and jury, hmmm, the whole conversation's gone straight over your head, hasn't it?

 

[Deleted member 1486]

It does make you wonder why the police seem to change tack in administering the law when pursuing celebrities

Publicity. Damned if they do/damned if they don't (not so much in this case, in which the charges seemed to stem from the police rather than an allegation, it was all-round clusterfuck for all involved).

 

[Muttley]

A question for those who don't want him anywhere near the club for non footballing reasons.
If you discovered any of our current squad had cheated on their pattners, would you want them banished too? Believe me, there will be some, we just don't know. It's their lives, it dosen't have an effect on if they can play football or not.
FWIW I have been on the receiving end of infidelity and detest it, but a player shouldn't be judged by that alone.

 

[blade too long]

A question for those who don't want him anywhere near the club for non footballing reasons.
If you discovered any of our current squad had cheated on their pattners, would you want them banished too? Believe me, there will be some, we just don't know. It's their lives, it dosen't have an effect on if they can play football or not.
FWIW I have been on the receiving end of infidelity and detest it, but a player shouldn't be judged by that alone.

seeing as nearly half of marriages fail and most families are extended these days theres plenty of it about
everybody in this room will know someone thats strayed,
Moral judgement are hysterically funny
take christianity
based on adam and eve all their offspring must have had incestuous relationships to breed, as there was no one else around , allegedly

All footballers should be judged on what happens on the grass
not tittle tattle and miscarriages of justice

Evans is by law an innocent man
please afford him or any other man in similar circumstances some christian forgiveness

hes scored 4 in 4
maybe the talents still within him
time will tell

read a report theres 2000 plus prostitutes in sheffield

most see 20 men a week
thats 40000 blokes every week doing something morally objectionable to some
thats more than turn up at the lane
makes you think

 

[Willie Carlin]

One of the witnesses was known to Evans Counsel before the first trial. He would confirm that the girl had done the same thing with him a few days prior to the Evans incident and would verify both Evans and McDonald's version of events. For some inexplicable reason Counsel chose not to call him and sealed Evans fate.

At the second trial with new counsel a second witness verified the girl had used the same phrases with him two weeks after and he had a relationship with the girl on 2 or 3 other occasions. This new evidence enabled the Jury to decide in less than two hours that Evans was not guilty of rape.

Evans father in law believes two peoples lives, Evans and the girl, were ruined by North Wales police desire to get a conviction against a Welsh international footballer. The girl was persuaded to pursue an allegation of rape when originally she was more concerned about losing her handbag and Evans and McDonalds honesty in presenting themselves to the Police at an early opportunity and providing them with all the details of the night were used against them.

The attached is a good listen.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ched-ev...ck-football-star-during-rape-storm-1611176783


It does make you wonder why the police seem to change tack in administering the law when pursuing celebrities. In Ben Stokes case the prosecution dropped two gay men as witnesses at the last minute. They would have confirmed Stokes was defending them yet the prosecution chose to try and blacken Stokes name in Court. Again with Cliff Richard the police seemed more interested in getting the BBC to turn up to film them at his home than carrying out proper crime detection.

Evans goal total has now gone up to four thats all that really matters in the present day the rest is history.

Correct!!!

 

[Willie Carlin]

"proven innocent". Fancy ourselves as judge and jury, hmmm, the whole conversation's gone straight over your head, hasn't it?

No! It’s a football forum not a courtroom

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

From what I remember of his good year, the team was set up around him being chief goal poacher. I don't think Wilder will ever set up a team in the same way. People may have expectations of him that are simply too high.

We were a very fluid and attacking team that season with goals coming from all over the place and to be honest, a lot of Ched's goals, he created himself and you wouldn't put them down to be typical poacher goals. You're right in that if people are expecting a similar season then that's never going to happen (particularly a division up) but I don't think it's down to the way we set up particularly. He did score for us pre-season don't forget

 

[Hamburg Blade]

A question for those who don't want him anywhere near the club for non footballing reasons.
If you discovered any of our current squad had cheated on their pattners, would you want them banished too? Believe me, there will be some, we just don't know. It's their lives, it dosen't have an effect on if they can play football or not.
FWIW I have been on the receiving end of infidelity and detest it, but a player shouldn't be judged by that alone.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with him cheating on his girlfriend.

 

[Davalon]

One of the saddest and arguably most concerning incidents I've witnessed at a game from our fans in terms of Ched, was at Huddersfield the season he was sent down.

About 10 teenagers including 3 or 4 girls, all happily singing 'he'll rape who he wants'

 

[Hamburg Blade]

We were a very fluid and attacking team that season with goals coming from all over the place and to be honest, a lot of Ched's goals, he created himself and you wouldn't put them down to be typical poacher goals. You're right in that if people are expecting a similar season then that's never going to happen (particularly a division up) but I don't think it's down to the way we set up particularly. He did score for us pre-season don't forget

Cheers, I don't have the benefit of getting to many games a season. I seemed to remember it was mostly service into the box and goals from short range.

 

[Davalon]

What everyone forgets is, if he had not been charged, he would have been sold in the January of his 30 goal season.

Yep this often goes without consideration by many.

A few clubs interested, and one club enlisted lawyers to assess his case ahead of making a bid, and consequently and correctly as it turned out, chose not to.

 

[broomhillblade]

seeing as nearly half of marriages fail and most families are extended these days theres plenty of it about
everybody in this room will know someone thats strayed,
Moral judgement are hysterically funny
take christianity
based on adam and eve all their offspring must have had incestuous relationships to breed, as there was no one else around , allegedly

All footballers should be judged on what happens on the grass
not tittle tattle and miscarriages of justice

Evans is by law an innocent man
please afford him or any other man in similar circumstances some christian forgiveness

hes scored 4 in 4
maybe the talents still within him
time will tell

read a report theres 2000 plus prostitutes in sheffield

most see 20 men a week
thats 40000 blokes every week doing something morally objectionable to some
thats more than turn up at the lane
makes you think

I suspect there's quite a few people reading this site that have done things in their past that they're not too proud of.

 

[JJ Sefton]

A balanced article written by a female journalist.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the...-the-ched-evans-verdict-puts-all-of-our-sons/

Bit of a minger though.

 

[awblade]

For those who are saying his goals so far this season are 'just taps' and 'he is just in the right place', isn't that what we are missing? The number of really good chances we have that just need tapping in, that aren't scored is infuriating

 

[Nick Jansky]

I know I shouldn't get involved but you are being disingenuous about the reported events. Evans testimony stated that she did respond verbally and requested he did something and then said something else. What she allegedly said and allegedly said to a second case witness during sex was one of the points as to why her previous history was allowed to be put to the court. Rightly or wrongly.

If debate has now reached levels where the reported facts are effectively being edited and two or more people have different moral attitudes then it's going nowhere. It's now getting ugly and let's be honest, it's been done to death with hardly anyone changing their views.

Yep, best for everyone if he just quietly exits the club, never to return, and we can move away from all this shit. Obviously, and very clearly, he has not been good for our club, whatever the wrongs or rights, so best to just let go so we no longer have to deal with this weird obsessional bollocks.

 

[Nick Jansky]

Bit of a minger though.

Possibly, but not to the same degree that you are a graceless twat, obviously.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Possibly, but not to the same degree that you are a graceless twat, obviously.

About 80%.

 

[BladeInIreland]

Yep, best for everyone if he just quietly exits the club, never to return, and we can move away from all this shit. Obviously, and very clearly, he has not been good for our club, whatever the wrongs or rights, so best to just let go so we no longer have to deal with this weird obsessional bollocks.

Better for the minority. An even better idea is if he's banging goals in let him return and do it for us. And let the minority lump it.

 

[Muttley]

Better for the minority. An even better idea is if he's banging goals in let him return and do it for us. And let the minority lump it.

Aaah but,
This is 2018 Britain. Minority groups always kick up a fuss, impose their views which cannot be challenged.

 

[blade too long]

Yep, best for everyone if he just quietly exits the club, never to return, and we can move away from all this shit. Obviously, and very clearly, he has not been good for our club, whatever the wrongs or rights, so best to just let go so we no longer have to deal with this weird obsessional bollocks.

whats not been good for our club was being wrongfully deprived of our star striker 4 games from a tight finish due to a miscarriage of justice ,
People still blame him for the Crown Prosecutions proceeding with a rape case even the victim never claimed was rape
he never ever denied having sex with her, but rape means non consentual, which appears never to have been the case.
mud it appears sticks , hope no one in your family gets this rough shod justice fobbed on them

 

[JJ Sefton]

whats not been good for our club was being wrongfully deprived of our star striker 4 games from a tight finish due to a miscarriage of justice ,
People still blame him for the Crown Prosecutions proceeding with a rape case even the victim never claimed was rape
he never ever denied having sex with her, but rape means non consentual, which appears never to have been the case.
mud it appears sticks , hope no one in your family gets this rough shod justice fobbed on them

Ched was only ever guilty of being a bit of a lad.

 

[Sheff de party]

Some corrections to the above Sheff.

Ched can’t claim compensation because he’s not been found innocent, he’s been found not guilty, there is a subtle difference.

Also the legal system took unprecedented steps to agree that previous partners/ actions was relevant in this case.
Normally they can’t be used because they could prejudice a case
But the Ched case was very different to any other case because the girl herself had no recollection or testomy of being raped.
The witnesses proven that her behaviour with Ched was normal/ regular practice for her.
It was always a really dangerous and tricky case to take to court when the key witness was unable/ unwilling to give any evidence. She said she had a black out for a few hours but the evidence suggests she was very drunk but not stupidly/ commotosed drunk.
There was no physical evidence of rape, no struggle, no signs of performing an act unwillingly, the only evidence was Ched and his friend freely admitting that sex took place.

In some ways it must be a relief for the girl to find out that she wasn’t raped after all.
No one wins, everyone is a loser in this case, it makes you wonder about our justice system.

I reckon by the letter of the law rape happens in the UK a few 1000 times each month but both the man and women don’t even realise it was technically a crime because at the time it was an enjoyable experience.

I’m aware that he can’t claim compensation because he can’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that he is innocent. That’s why I’m saying it’s not a disgrace. If it was a miscarriage of justice at the level some people seem to think, claiming compensation would be easy. Due to the fine margins involved, he is very lucky to have it overturned in my view and it was far from a disgrace in the first place, and due to those margins he isn’t getting any compensation.

In terms of admissibility, i wrote that as a matter of opinion. Whether she wants to give evidence or not is irrelevant as the Crown can summons her and she has the choice of showing up or risking prison herself. I think the defence were extremely fortunate to get the evidence admitted and it had no relevance to this case - What she did last time does not guarantee what she did this time. It was yet another straw to clutch at for the defence after first (at the trial) they tried to prove she wasn’t that drunk, then at the appeal they tried to say she was that drunk but could still consent. Both failed, so they hired a private investigator and somehow got it through.

I would think that having had to move house and change your name twice, testify twice about what’s possibly the worst night of her life and now have even more people calling her a slag because he’s somehow got off is far from a relief.

(Appreciate your original point, but thought I’d phrase it as above as it’s a public forum rather than us having a chat in the pub/by PM).