Ched Evans: How many goals for ANOTHER chance here?

[Boxer Blade]

Anybody any idea how ched is doing at Fleetwood ? Just out of interest like

 

[Hamburg Blade]

You may well be 'better than him', but I would have thought that anyone who is 'better' might include a bit of forgiveness in their own moral code.

As I've said, the main issue for me has become all the associated views about his actions, rape and women that come with him. If there had been a more circumspect view of the whole thing, with people reflecting on rape, how women are viewed and treated, how modern lifestyles are pushing against laws designed to protect people's freedoms, I wouldn't have any issue at all - apart from the fact that I think the chances of him performing for us again are pretty minimal, that is.

 

[Rodders]

vulnerable? This is what a poster was highlighting earlier on.
WOMEN LIKE SEX TOO
Women get drunk, men get drunk. Women perv on men. Men perv on women.
The girl is far from innocent in these aspects, shall we bring her to the town hall and stone her to death?

Agree that’s the issue that some men can’t bring themselves to believe, they think it’s a convenient excuse engineered by men.

I’ve honestly met some women that laugh at men’s old fashioned views that women are the fairer sex.
Speak to a cross section of women in an open minded atmosphere and there’s a surprisingly significant amount of young girls that are sexual predators, love the thought of numerous one night stands and some are even fair game for threesomes. Some men would call them slags ( I don’t) but if men have the same behaviour they are almost revered like a Don Juan character, double standards.

Women do like sex, and do like threesomes - it’s when they’re too pissed to know what’s going on it becomes a problem, which is why Ched went down. Not difficult.

 

[BladeInIreland]

This, BladeInIreland, is a load of tripe. From your early couple of posts I thought you had a better understanding of the case. She was vulnerable when Ched approached her, drunk, naked, lying prone, in the act of sexual activities with someone, not in her own surroundings. That was no normal lead-in to having sex and only one person can truly be said to have been in control of the situation - the person who had set it all up with his mate and who was not drunk.
It has got nothing to do with whether she likes having sex. Or her sexual tastes. The message is "if you say yes to one man, you must be up for it". That's wrong. Just because she was promiscuous, liked rough sex, was up for a one night stand, or anything else, doesn't alter what Evans is permitted to do. Unfortunately, the jury was allowed to consider exactly that, which I think was wrong.

You can't paint it whatever way you want. I could describe the events in a way that made it sound like an erotic novel, but for the sake of any children reading I won't.
See you used a dangerous word in there, normal. It's not a word that can be used when talking about sexual activities. Sex in hotel rooms is actually alot more of a standard thing then you would think. Most people that age don't have a house to go back to. You say her history shouldn't be a factor but highlight she's in a vulnerable state out of her own surroundings. But if her history is regularly bringing men to a hotel room whilst drunk or on drugs she probably didn't feel as vulnerable as you make out.

 

[BladeInIreland]

Women do like sex, and do like threesomes - it’s when they’re too pissed to know what’s going on it becomes a problem, which is why Ched went down. Not difficult.

We'll doesn't that just bring us back to the grey area of what is too pissed. Seemingly by the evidence she wasn't passed out and dragged into a room. So grey in fact it was overturned.

 

[Darlington82]

Back to the football, I don't think he is good enough, but if Chris does (not McCabe) he needs to not just be good enough, he needs to be better than anything else we have to be worth the hassle.

Never thought he was guilty, apart from having a crap initial lawyer. What everyone forgets is, if he had not been charged, he would have been sold in the January of his 30 goal season.

 

[Sheffsteel]

This, BladeInIreland, is a load of tripe. From your early couple of posts I thought you had a better understanding of the case. She was vulnerable when Ched approached her, drunk, naked, lying prone, in the act of sexual activities with someone, not in her own surroundings. That was no normal lead-in to having sex and only one person can truly be said to have been in control of the situation - the person who had set it all up with his mate and who was not drunk.
It has got nothing to do with whether she likes having sex. Or her sexual tastes. The message is "if you say yes to one man, you must be up for it". That's wrong. Just because she was promiscuous, liked rough sex, was up for a one night stand, or anything else, doesn't alter what Evans is permitted to do. Unfortunately, the jury was allowed to consider exactly that, which I think was wrong.

Fair point, that’s the reason whey the other guy was innocent because although he didn’t have express permission to have sex, the build up could lead him to believe that he did have permission. He chatted her up, bought her a pizza and she willingly went into a taxi with him, this is what happens 1000’s of times every weekend.

Ched just turned up invited by his friend not the girl. So it looks like he was an opportunist (a predetor). In Cheds mind she was drunk but not too drunk and her actions gave him permission.

I really believe that the CPS were at fault here, it was always going to be a minefield with no witness to a crime.
Also when the effects of alcohol and sexual moralistic behaviour is a major factor it complicates it even more.
The girl never ever complained and could have carried on her life without being involved in the thought that she might have been raped. At least she now knows rape didn’t take place and her sub concious was probably agreeable.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

We'll be back to suggesting that if a woman has an orgasm during a rape she must have enjoyed it, so it isn't rape.

Out of a genuine interest, has this been discussed and suggested by posters in the past?

 

[Hamburg Blade]

You can't paint it whatever way you want. I could describe the events in a way that made it sound like an erotic novel, but for the sake of any children reading I won't.
See you used a dangerous word in there, normal. It's not a word that can be used when talking about sexual activities. Sex in hotel rooms is actually alot more of a standard thing then you would think. Most people that age don't have a house to go back to. You say her history shouldn't be a factor but highlight she's in a vulnerable state out of her own surroundings. But if her history is regularly bringing men to a hotel room whilst drunk or on drugs she probably didn't feel as vulnerable as you make out.

Good grief, you didn't follow the case at all, did you? I haven't "painted" it in any way at all. That is EXACTLY how it happened. He got a text from his mate "I've got a bird", turned a taxi around and headed to the hotel room they'd pre-booked for the event. He blagged his way into the room and had a go on her without saying a word to her, then sneaked out of the fire escape so no one would see him. That is not normal - I wasn't refering to sex in a hotel, but Evan's preditory actions. It's not about whether she "felt vulnerable", it's whether she was in a vulnerable state. Lying naked on a bed, drunk, in someone else's hotel room is about as clear a definition of vulnerable as you can get. Her history is not relevant to whether Evans raped her or not. Do you realise that you can rape a prostitute?

 

[DronnieBlade]

Ched the footballer ?

Or.

Ched the high profile court case ?

You choose.

It’s time to move on.

UTB

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Out of a genuine interest, has this been discussed and suggested by posters in the past?

No. It is currently being argued that because women like sex, Evans is innocent. Can you imagine if it emerged she's orgasmed whilst Evans was doing her?

 

[Sheffsteel]

Back to the football, I don't think he is good enough, but if Chris does (not McCabe) he needs to not just be good enough, he needs to be better than anything else we have to be worth the hassle..

Agree, I said at the beginning of this thread that I expect him to be good (above average) in league 1.
He’d be lower Championship/ high level 1 standard (probably Clayton Donaldson standard) and good enough to be a sub.

But think we should be aiming higher than his standard, really doubt he’ll ever be good enough to regular feature in our 1st team.
Keeping an open mind though, he might prove me wrong.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

No. It is currently being argued that because women like sex, Evans is innocent. Can you imagine if it emerged she's orgasmed whilst Evans was doing her?

I'm confused, was this orgasm during his 1st or 2nd goal yesterday ?

 

[Fulwood Blade]

No. It is currently being argued that because women like sex, Evans is innocent. Can you imagine if it emerged she's orgasmed whilst Evans was doing her?

thanks for that - think I am going to dip out of comments, this thread just has the legs to keep going in ways that it shouldn't really. It can only end in arguments and counter arguments.

All the best.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Fair point, that’s the reason whey the other guy was innocent because although he didn’t have express permission to have sex, the build up could lead him to believe that he did have permission. He chatted her up, bought her a pizza and she willingly went into a taxi with him, this is what happens 1000’s of times every weekend.

Ched just turned up invited by his friend not the girl. So it looks like he was an opportunist (a predetor). In Cheds mind she was drunk but not too drunk and her actions gave him permission.

Exactly. Sooo many people don't get this.

I really believe that the CPS were at fault here, it was always going to be a minefield with no witness to a crime.
Also when the effects of alcohol and sexual moralistic behaviour is a major factor it complicates it even more.
The girl never ever complained and could have carried on her life without being involved in the thought that she might have been raped. At least she now knows rape didn’t take place and her sub concious was probably agreeable.

I don't think the CPS were wrong to bring the case. I think they were probably wrong not to have talked with her about it, about what could happen when they prosecuted a high profile person and that her sexual habits could come out. If she's expressed a strong desire for them not to go ahead, then they should have considered that. Who knows, maybe they did.
I don't agree that she will take the verdict to mean she wasn't raped. She'll have her own idea on that.

 

[Tom Bott]

Can you imagine if it emerged she's orgasmed whilst Evans was doing her?

Or worse that she said stop or no.

 

[BladeInIreland]

Good grief, you didn't follow the case at all, did you? I haven't "painted" it in any way at all. That is EXACTLY how it happened. He got a text from his mate "I've got a bird", turned a taxi around and headed to the hotel room they'd pre-booked for the event. He blagged his way into the room and had a go on her without saying a word to her, then sneaked out of the fire escape so no one would see him. That is not normal - I wasn't refering to sex in a hotel, but Evan's preditory actions. It's not about whether she "felt vulnerable", it's whether she was in a vulnerable state. Lying naked on a bed, drunk, in someone else's hotel room is about as clear a definition of vulnerable as you can get. Her history is not relevant to whether Evans raped her or not. Do you realise that you can rape a prostitute?

Again , there's very little normal involved in sexual activity. Most cases of a threesome iv heard of from nights out involve a mate tagging in a mate. Normally with a girl they believe "fancy free" shall we say in the hope she would agree. It's not as common for said girl to walk up to a group and say who's first. These scenarios are not unheard of. As well as most people going along with the vibe not necessarily a verbal contract for consent. Obviously just because a woman sleeps around a bit doesn't mean she can't be a victim. But when your looking for usual patterns between the suspected crime and every other weekend it's useful. Because seemingly she wasn't so sure herself.

A side question since you have such a good understanding of the case.
Why was the verdict overturned?
What evidence was enough to clear him?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Good grief, you didn't follow the case at all, did you? I haven't "painted" it in any way at all. That is EXACTLY how it happened. He got a text from his mate "I've got a bird", turned a taxi around and headed to the hotel room they'd pre-booked for the event. He blagged his way into the room and had a go on her without saying a word to her, then sneaked out of the fire escape so no one would see him. That is not normal - I wasn't refering to sex in a hotel, but Evan's preditory actions. It's not about whether she "felt vulnerable", it's whether she was in a vulnerable state. Lying naked on a bed, drunk, in someone else's hotel room is about as clear a definition of vulnerable as you can get. Her history is not relevant to whether Evans raped her or not. Do you realise that you can rape a prostitute?

I know I shouldn't get involved but you are being disingenuous about the reported events. Evans testimony stated that she did respond verbally and requested he did something and then said something else. What she allegedly said and allegedly said to a second case witness during sex was one of the points as to why her previous history was allowed to be put to the court. Rightly or wrongly.

If debate has now reached levels where the reported facts are effectively being edited and two or more people have different moral attitudes then it's going nowhere. It's now getting ugly and let's be honest, it's been done to death with hardly anyone changing their views.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I know I shouldn't get involved but you are being disingenuous about the reported events. Evans testimony stated that she did respond verbally and requested he did something and then said something else. What she allegedly said and allegedly said to a second case witness during sex was one of the points as to why her previous history was allowed to be put to the court. Rightly or wrongly.

If debate has now reached levels where the reported facts are effectively being edited and two or more people have different moral attitudes then it's going nowhere. It's now getting ugly and let's be honest, it's been done to death with hardly anyone changing their views.

You're quite right, she allegedly told him to go down on her. I have no desire to edit the facts. For me the case revolves around what he did, not what she did, since a) she was too drunk to remember (and has no reason to invent that) and b) anything she did do or say is being told by the two accused.
It certainly has been done to death on several occasions.

 

[coolhandluke]

Can someone tell me what the additional evidence was that was used in Cheds appeal that led to the appeal court overruling the original decision ?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Can someone tell me what the additional evidence was that was used in Cheds appeal that led to the appeal court overruling the original decision ?

Wasn't it basically new witness statements including part of her previous sexual history?

 

[Tom Bott]

only the people involved including the night porter listening at the door know the facts. Or those who attended the trial.

So everyone on here is basing their judgements on the media version of events and cherry picking 'facts' to suit their own viewpoint.

But then that is what the internet is for 'information' technology, it's called progress.

 

[coolhandluke]

Wasn't it basically new witness statements including part of her previous sexual history?

That's what I thought it was . But now reading some of the replies on here I'm not so sure ????

 

[Rodders]

only the people involved including the night porter listening at the door know the facts. Or those who attended the trial.

So everyone on here is basing their judgements on the media version of events and cherry picking 'facts' to suit their own viewpoint.

But then that is what the internet is for 'information' technology, it's called progress.

What’s different from the media version to what happened?

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Again , there's very little normal involved in sexual activity. Most cases of a threesome iv heard of from nights out involve a mate tagging in a mate. Normally with a girl they believe "fancy free" shall we say in the hope she would agree. It's not as common for said girl to walk up to a group and say who's first. These scenarios are not unheard of. As well as most people going along with the vibe not necessarily a verbal contract for consent. Obviously just because a woman sleeps around a bit doesn't mean she can't be a victim. But when your looking for usual patterns between the suspected crime and every other weekend it's useful. Because seemingly she wasn't so sure herself.

A side question since you have such a good understanding of the case.
Why was the verdict overturned?
What evidence was enough to clear him?

I wouldn't agree that there isn't anything normal in sexual activity. You are listing a number of examples which might not be uncommon, but I wouldn't say they've got to the point of being "normal". As you say "not unheard of", but that's a long way from normal. All these instances have to be judged on their own merits. Just because one situation is ok, doesn't mean a similar situation is. And there are probably many occasions where one of these situations could land a man in court accused of rape. Some men probably need to be less blasé about making sure they have a woman's consent, especially where alcohol is concerned.

As I understand it, the verdict was overturned because the defence said the new witness evidence showed that Evans testimony about what she said to him matched what she had said on different occasions during sex with others. Therefore he wasn't making it up and if he had believed that her instructions to him constituted consent then it could be adjudged not to be rape.
The controversy is that the new evidence could not be introduced without suggesting to the jury that she was a bit of a slapper. You can't be sure that members of the jury aren't going to hold that against her.
Personally, I believe that the new evidence played very little role in the second verdict. The jury requested the video footage of her entering the hotel, which suggests to me that they were considering whether she was really too drunk to consent, or at least whether she appeared too drunk. That combined with the pointlessness of finding him guilty when he'd already served time made their decision fairly easy. But that is purely my opinion of how it went in the jury room.

 

[Tom Bott]

What’s different from the media version to what happened?

LOL.

McCabe and the prince have £6 million each in their pockets from the sale of Brooks.

 

[Tom Bott]

But that is purely my opinion of how it went in the jury room

A guess then.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

A guess then.

To how the jury arrived at its not guilty verdict? Yes, of course. Same as everyone else.

 

[Rodders]

LOL.

McCabe and the prince have £6 million each in their pockets from the sale of Brooks.

So there’s no difference then.

 

[Addison]

Wasn't it basically new witness statements including part of her previous sexual history?

One of the witnesses was known to Evans Counsel before the first trial. He would confirm that the girl had done the same thing with him a few days prior to the Evans incident and would verify both Evans and McDonald's version of events. For some inexplicable reason Counsel chose not to call him and sealed Evans fate.

At the second trial with new counsel a second witness verified the girl had used the same phrases with him two weeks after and he had a relationship with the girl on 2 or 3 other occasions. This new evidence enabled the Jury to decide in less than two hours that Evans was not guilty of rape.

Evans father in law believes two peoples lives, Evans and the girl, were ruined by North Wales police desire to get a conviction against a Welsh international footballer. The girl was persuaded to pursue an allegation of rape when originally she was more concerned about losing her handbag and Evans and McDonalds honesty in presenting themselves to the Police at an early opportunity and providing them with all the details of the night were used against them.

The attached is a good listen.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ched-ev...ck-football-star-during-rape-storm-1611176783


It does make you wonder why the police seem to change tack in administering the law when pursuing celebrities. In Ben Stokes case the prosecution dropped two gay men as witnesses at the last minute. They would have confirmed Stokes was defending them yet the prosecution chose to try and blacken Stokes name in Court. Again with Cliff Richard the police seemed more interested in getting the BBC to turn up to film them at his home than carrying out proper crime detection.

Evans goal total has now gone up to four thats all that really matters in the present day the rest is history.