beattie

[rotweissler]

What followed was a truly epic thread of guff blowery.

and Curtis throwing wobbler

 

[Oreyt]

and Curtis throwing wobbler

The best bit of teh internetz eva.

 

[Sensiblade]

I missed that one. Might have to search and read.

 

[supermorgs]

yes i heard he was close to signing as appartanlt he was spotted at the academy on friday. & also why would Danny wilson have to deny reports that he close to signing. as if you have to deny to sky sports news then it ususaly is close

 

[Sirius]

From what I've heard (not seen enough myself) pace isn't Philliskirk's strength Houso. Keep in mind that the signing of Beattie (assuming his wage demands are still pretty high) would limit strengthening in other areas, as well as reduce our ability to hold onto our best players in the next window. It is easy for us fans to imagine the goals a player could score, but I think we should also keep in mind the financial side of it while also evaluating what effects such a signing would have on us beyond this season.

Bergs, what a sensible post. If you could only bottle and sell whatever it is that makes you do this, you could make a fortune. Just thought it time I said thanks for your posts.

UTB

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

Logically, I would say no to Beattie, realistically, I would bum him to get him back, bum him.

Erm Mr Jehovah. that's cheating. I remember you wrote ten rules. Wasn't there one about your neighbours ass or something?

 

[Ollessendro]

My my, some feathers have been ruffled by my comments on the red half of Sheffield's favourite overweight, unfit, has (never) been. I know that we have not been blessed with strikers in the last 20 years, but idiolising James Beattie and creating this fairy tale that he is top notch is just too much for me.

You do talk bollocks, last season was a write off for Beattie he was injured and was never fully fit, had problems getting into the Rangers team when they signed Jelavic and didnt have a happy time at Blackpool, to call him a crock is shameful
I for one hope he does come back to BDTBL if only to prove you wrong

When you start swearing and getting insultive you lose the argument owd spage. But to responde to your comment Peddy last season just proves that Beattie's career is finished. Unless someone is stupid enough to offer him a lucrative last contract .......

If we can afford Beattie then could we not spend the money on perhaps more than one other player instead? And I can't see Beattie settling for 6.5k a week. Lamborghinis are expensive things to run, and as he fucked off to Stoke for the big money not that long ago why has he had a sudden change of heart? I'd like to see him back, but only if he's the only option, and i don't think that he is. We'll have to wait and see.

(Not very often we agree but) spot on SV. I would be amazed if he took 6.5k a week, but I imagine we could fins someone who is younger, quicker, more athletic and hungrier (not literally).

Why let the facts get in the way? Fjortoft = 19 in 34 league games. Bent = 20 in 59. Blake = 34 in 55. None of them scored 20 league goals in a season. Neither Fjortoft or Bent completed a full league season for United.

After Brian Deane scored 20+ in 1989/90, the next United striker to do so was James Beattie in 07/08. Why penalties should have anything to do with it is beyond me. Do SUFC only get 2 points if the win is secured by a spot kick?

Similar goalscoring records with Blake, Bent and Fjortoft, particularly when you take into account penalties (which the others did not take).

The fact is that we were more successful without Beattie in the side during 08/09. How many times do I need to state this before people starting questioning whether their beloved Beattie actually had a detrimental effect on the team?

Hey Olle, if United had done better with Monty in the team than without him in 2008/9, does that invalidate your arguments that he was no good?

Now who is using the straw man tactic? If you have read my match reports then you would see that I have been fairly complimentary of the maestro. He has done a job this season and am sure he will continue to break up many attacks at third tier level (though he may struggle to get his place back!). You are smart enough to see that the 'Monty loyalty' and 'RAPFA letter to Danny Wilson' threads should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Revolution]

Olle, your argument is essentially that Beattie was no good and the fact that we did better without him than with him proves this conclusively.

My argument is that there were other factors at play. You reject them out of hand and say your argument trumps all, effectively.

My point with Monty is to show that variation in results when one player is in a team as opposed to when he is not is not necessarily a reliable guide to how good he is. It is a factor, sure, but not decisive.

To put it another way - do you think removing Sharp from the side and adding Cotterill to it were non-factors in our improvement in the second half of that season?

And do you think that if Beattie had been in the side in the last 8 games of that season rather than Craig Beattie or Henderson (who failed to score) we might have been promoted?

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Similar goalscoring records with Blake, Bent and Fjortoft, particularly when you take into account penalties (which the others did not take).

Fjortoft took at least one, and maybe more.

 

[Bladesman]

My my, some feathers have been ruffled by my comments on the red half of Sheffield's favourite overweight, unfit, has (never) been. I know that we have not been blessed with strikers in the last 20 years, but idiolising James Beattie and creating this fairy tale that he is top notch is just too much for me.



When you start swearing and getting insultive you lose the argument owd spage. But to responde to your comment Peddy last season just proves that Beattie's career is finished. Unless someone is stupid enough to offer him a lucrative last contract .......



(Not very often we agree but) spot on SV. I would be amazed if he took 6.5k a week, but I imagine we could fins someone who is younger, quicker, more athletic and hungrier (not literally).



Similar goalscoring records with Blake, Bent and Fjortoft, particularly when you take into account penalties (which the others did not take).

The fact is that we were more successful without Beattie in the side during 08/09. How many times do I need to state this before people starting questioning whether their beloved Beattie actually had a detrimental effect on the team?



Now who is using the straw man tactic? If you have read my match reports then you would see that I have been fairly complimentary of the maestro. He has done a job this season and am sure he will continue to break up many attacks at third tier level (though he may struggle to get his place back!). You are smart enough to see that the 'Monty loyalty' and 'RAPFA letter to Danny Wilson' threads should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am sure you were saying the same about HMS Shipperly then? Who even now could still score goals I reckon.

 

[Ted Danson]

Cresswell couldn't score for toffee last season yet he's got 4 already. Even a fat unfit Beattie would destroy this league, it is crap!

 

[Ollessendro]

Olle, your argument is essentially that Beattie was no good and the fact that we did better without him than with him proves this conclusively.

My argument is that there were other factors at play. You reject them out of hand and say your argument trumps all, effectively.

My point with Monty is to show that variation in results when one player is in a team as opposed to when he is not is not necessarily a reliable guide to how good he is. It is a factor, sure, but not decisive.

My point is actually that we have a difference in opinion. You rate BT, I do not. You thought he was better in the team, I did not. The facts (which you brought up) suggest that we were better of without him. The rest is subjective and comes down to differences in opinion. It's like circumstancial evidence (which of course you can be convicted on). You think that with BT we would have got promoted. I do not. The facts are on my side, but you point out external factors (subjective - circumstancial if you will) which may or may not be valid. In your opinion they are valid, in mine they are not.

To put it another way - do you think removing Sharp from the side and adding Cotterill to it were non-factors in our improvement in the second half of that season?

No.

And do you think that if Beattie had been in the side in the last 8 games of that season rather than Craig Beattie or Henderson (who failed to score) we might have been promoted?

Let me take a step further back. With Beattie in the side I do not think that we would have been in contention. Coterill might not even have got in the team. We might have not made the play offs, or finished in a different position. We do not know.

I am sure you were saying the same about HMS Shipperly then? Who even now could still score goals I reckon.

Shipperley was an excellent taregt man, great leader of the line and a proper centre forward. I raised an eyebrow when we signed him, but could immediately see what was Warnock was looking for. He has two quick and sharp strikers in Webber and Kabba and wanted someone to partner them. HMS Shipps was ideal.

 

[SwissBlade]

BT was extremely unfit last season and when my mate saw him play a few games for Rangers he was both unfit and extremely shit.

Not sure about him being fat, last time I saw him he looked in decent shape. So unless someone can provide photos to the contrary, then comments like that are unwarranted.

Lets be fair. An unfit BT would score goals in this division, from open play and set pieces. His ability is not and never should be in question. Even an unfit Porter and a crap Mendez-Laing are getting goals at this level, so BT would be looking for a goal every 2 games (that he plays) at least.

The question marks I have are:
1 - Does he fit Danny Wilsons style?
I think he could do, but do we have other options that already compliment Cresswell or Porter. Cresswell, Porter and BT are all in the category of "Target man". I don’t mean this as Hoof recipients, but players who are physical and can hold the ball up. Porter and Cresswell didn’t really work for me.

What I noticed when Tonne came on v Bury was that Tonne opened the front line up.

2 – Will the goals be spread more consistently without BT?
I think yes, whilst BT will get more than his share of goals, playing a player like Tonne (or formerly Slew) “Could” provide a greater deal of movement up front, allowing other players to come to the party.

3 – Will he play 50% of the season?
Doubts are evident regarding his Fitness. He may not play that many games and if we then have to adapt our game to accommodate him, then it can have a negative affect (or a positive affect)

4 – Journeymen (Experience) v Potential (Developing players)
What happened to the new player profile at the club – Developing players? We all agreed in the summer that bringing in young development players in on the cheap was the way forward. I don’t believe we will go forward by bringing in players who have potentially lost their legs.

Although we just need to look at McCall to counter this argument.

5 - Cost
As a fan it’s not really my concern (ok my season ticket money goes towards the wages, but if I was really paying the wages, then I’d pay more than just £300 a year and make sure that we signed players that I wanted) but we just sold a young, hungry player with potential (who was cheap) and we’re looking to bring in someone at the end of their career at presumably a high cost.

At £31 a match ticket, I don’t think BT will put that many extra bums on seats to pay for the wages and to also make such a major impact.

Looking at Charlton, Wednesday and Bury there is nothing to fear in this league. If we can’t win this league at a canter with the players that we have, then we have bigger issues than BT

Is he just going to be an expensive squad player who might not be fit when we need him?

 

[FleaPitBlade]

4 – Journeymen (Experience) v Potential (Developing players)
What happened to the new player profile at the club – Developing players? We all agreed in the summer that bringing in young development players in on the cheap was the way forward. I don’t believe we will go forward by bringing in players who have potentially lost their legs.

I think players like Jamies Beattie around the place can only have a positive effect on the likes of Tonne & Philiskirk and to some degree Porter and Creswell because they know they need to stay on their game to keep a shirt.

For what its worth, people who I would expect to know about Beattie coming to the lane are saying they havent heard a peep (or at least they are telling me they havent) and the expectation is he'd be more likely to join Southampton than United.

 

[stannyblade]

SSN says that he has spoke to wilson about coming back.

 

[Darren]

Olle, your argument is essentially that Beattie was no good and the fact that we did better without him than with him proves this conclusively.

My argument is that there were other factors at play. You reject them out of hand and say your argument trumps all, effectively.

My point with Monty is to show that variation in results when one player is in a team as opposed to when he is not is not necessarily a reliable guide to how good he is. It is a factor, sure, but not decisive.

To put it another way - do you think removing Sharp from the side and adding Cotterill to it were non-factors in our improvement in the second half of that season?

And do you think that if Beattie had been in the side in the last 8 games of that season rather than Craig Beattie or Henderson (who failed to score) we might have been promoted?

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Similar goalscoring records with Blake, Bent and Fjortoft, particularly when you take into account penalties (which the others did not take).

Fjortoft took at least one, and maybe more.

Fjortoft only took one pen (and scored it) at Oxford on 20/9/97 after Deane had hit the post with an earlier one.

 

[stannyblade]

For me the only two factors about signing him is
1- wages --- provided that he accepts our wage structure dont break the bank
and
2 - fitness --- he needs to show he is fit enough

As long as these are met then sign him up asap. He will easily get goals in this league.

 

[Houso]

Just to pick up on a point, I personally think Beattie would put at least an extra 500 bums on seats per match, and probably more after the announcement.

Extrapolate that in an average month with two averagely priced matches, and you're talking around 20k out of Beattie's wages per month.

Also, I personally think that if Porter is showing he can play for a good 80 minutes per match, then Beattie can certainly do close to the same.

So long as the wages are utterly crippling and he's not signed for any longer than the rest of the season, I see only good things from such a signing.

 

[broomhillblade]

We have a (mainly) young squad, doing well with good team spirit and everyone playing for each other. Above all, they are getting results.

Do we want to bring in aging prima donnas to upset team spirit and reduce that chances of some of the promising fringe players of getting into the first team?

This is not just about Beattie but any loan players. Yes, we need some back up, particularly in defence, but DW will have to tread carefully.

 

[Houso]

We have a (mainly) young squad, doing well with good team spirit and everyone playing for each other. Above all, they are getting results.

Do we want to bring in aging prima donnas to upset team spirit and reduce that chances of some of the promising fringe players of getting into the first team?

This is not just about Beattie but any loan players. Yes, we need some back up, particularly in defence, but DW will have to tread carefully.

Since when the buggery was he a prima donna? From all accounts he got on brilliantly with the rest of the squad and is actually still close to a couple of them

And I don't quite understand this belief that he was lazy; I remember a Beattie that chased back if he lost the ball.

I can understand some saying we need pace up front as we already have a couple of strong uns. But, we had Slew up front recently; a striker as pacy as they come - and he did very little for us when he played this season.

I'd rather have a wise head who knew how to break the offside trap than a young raw striker who did it only through pace.

 

[Toronto Blade]

All this talk about a young squad is fine but a cool head in in big pressure games is invaluable,a Beattie/Morgan in a pressure game would be an advantage.
DW has said he wants a balance between youth and experience he will decide.

 

[madeinsheffield]

What's wrong with signing him on a 2 year contract as long as the wages are OK, if he does well, he then becomes an asset we can sell if required and get some money back, I agree with another poster that he will get some stay aways back too, more money for wages

 

[Houso]

Indeed. And we have a lovely blend as it is IMO.

A player here, and a player there at either end of the spectrum won't make much difference to that mix.

 

[shove69]

Found this link about beattie:

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10418~5991,00.html

 

[Seth The Blade]

I think he would be a decent "super sub"

 

[FleaPitBlade]

Looks like Lee Hendire is on his way back aswell...

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10418~5521,00.html

 

[Houso]

On the up side, Gary Cahill is back at the club:

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10418~32203,00.html

 

[Ollessendro]

We have a (mainly) young squad, doing well with good team spirit and everyone playing for each other. Above all, they are getting results.

Do we want to bring in aging prima donnas to upset team spirit and reduce that chances of some of the promising fringe players of getting into the first team?

At last, somone is talking sense.

Just to pick up on a point, I personally think Beattie would put at least an extra 500 bums on seats per match, and probably more after the announcement.

Extrapolate that in an average month with two averagely priced matches, and you're talking around 20k out of Beattie's wages per month.

Also, I personally think that if Porter is showing he can play for a good 80 minutes per match, then Beattie can certainly do close to the same.

So long as the wages are utterly crippling and he's not signed for any longer than the rest of the season, I see only good things from such a signing.

I do not buy this at all. Even if your theory is true, then it could cause problems. We get an overweight, unfit, big time Charlie arrive and then he is expected to start. We are paying the wages and the fans have come to watch him. Porter is dropped (despite scoring twice in a couple of games) and Tonne and Philiskirk, despite workign hard and impressing, are pushed further away from the team. Like broomhill says, Wilson needs to be really careful who he brings in and Beattie might just rock the boat (and not becuase of his weight). On the contrary to your theory Houso, what about if Beattie comes in and damages the team spirt and we go on a bad run? After all the facts say we were better off without him in 2008/2009. We lose a few games and end up mid table and then the crowds drop from 18k (or even higher as we are liely to approach 20k if this run keeps going) to 17k (or worse). The we are paying an overated, chubby, prima donna big money to do bugger all and the gates are down.

Since when the buggery was he a prima donna? From all accounts he got on brilliantly with the rest of the squad and is actually still close to a couple of them

And I don't quite understand this belief that he was lazy; I remember a Beattie that chased back if he lost the ball.

This kind of stuff makes me chuckle. All the Beattie lovers trying to justify he was not a big time Charlie. 'He once signed an autograph for me', 'my uncles, sisters, brothers cat was ill and he took it to the vets', 'I was walkign across a pedestrian crossing and he stopped his 4x4 (hence not killing me) because he saw my United shirt. What nonesense. The guy is a prima donna, big time Charlie and a deluded 'super star'. Worse still on the pitch it is all about Beattie and he is a selfish, lazy, individual player. The age old example about when he ran back and made a tackle in that cup game. I remember the incident well: It was a token effort and the only bit of hard work he put in in a red and white shirt.

 

[SwissBlade]

The best morale booster for any squad is results and performances.

As much as I think BT is a great guy to have around, the rest of the lads are young lads who will have a good crack anyway. So I ask again, do we need another great guy or do we need another young, fit, hungry, pacy lad who has bags to prove.

 

[Ollessendro]

Darren - do you know the stats for the 08/09 (or the whole of Beattie's era) for goals scored by other players when: a) BT was in the team and b) when he did not play?

 

[puppet]

So I ask again, do we need another great guy or do we need another young, fit, hungry, pacy lad who has bags to prove.

can you find us one then because the only one i could think of off the top of my head, la fondre, went to a higher division. if we could get some guaranteed whizzkid prem reserve then great, though i couldnt name you one (though i dont follow the prem much)

 

[Houso]

I'd engage, but the thin veil between sincerity and irony means that any potential discussion is futile.