Alleged Racist Chanting - BBC Radio Sheffield

[Barney]

Wouldn't you have sound reasoning for taking offence in that instance? In which case there isn't a 'so what' as there is sound reasoning.

So on the one hand it's a "so what?", but whenever it comes round to something you'd be offended with, that certain little phrase loses all validity? Come on.

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Agree with a lot of that.

It's perfectly possible that the chant was started precisely bc those chanting were NOT racist. Maybe this is more likely if they are young as they'll integrate at school, say. Should people who reached a situation where they are comfortable with themselves, their mates, and their subculture then be condemned and even criminalised because people on the outside are offended?

It's also possible that those chanting were racist.

It's also possible that it was a mixture.

I don't see how it's at all reasonable to call this situation simple.

That's the problem WHF. It's not simple at all.
It's almost impossible to measure where banter becomes abuse and I think that's why banter has to give way to PC every time.
On one hand I can understand it, but on the other, I don't like being treated like a kid.
I left the "Right, unless the person responsible owns up, you'll all be in detention" back in the class room years ago!

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Was it a racist chant or was it just that some guy was offended by the use of the word ISIS?

What was the reasoning behind that the complaint?

Without the reasoning behind the complaint people will make their own judgment from their own perspective and they were probably not there (was the Bradford chairman there?). Then the view of what happened becomes something other than what actually happened.

Something simple becomes complex.

This may be slightly out of context .... however ..... it may be simple ....

View attachment 15244


Dives for cover ....

And I think Fry is an annoying, pompous man who loves drawing attention to himself. I feel confident his pronouncement would not extend as far as homophobic abuse to or about his loved one.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

And I think Fry is an annoying, pompous man who loves drawing attention to himself

I see a lot of myself in him... to save anyone having to post it.

 

[Grappler]

Sheffield United ‏@SUFC_tweets 2m2 minutes ago
Discriminatory and abusive language and behaviour are not acceptable at BL, please support us #twitterblades

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[William Henry Foulkes]

Sheffield United ‏@SUFC_tweets 2m2 minutes ago
Discriminatory and abusive language and behaviour are not acceptable at BL, please support us #twitterblades

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But is banter...

;-)

UTMB

 

[Bert]

Where has it been reported that we made monkey chants? I've only seen the comments from the Bradford chairman where he didn't say we made them.
I've not seen it reported that we did.

As for Berts request, I saw one fan say he heard Paki sung in another thread and Bert said he was wrong. Basically if Bert didn't hear it it can't have happened. Why United fans would say they heard it when they didn't is beyond me, and I've certainly heard it shouted before at The Lane.

So you heard nothing, were you even there?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Of course the quote is selective - and slightly out of context. But surely the underlying point is that the reasoning is what should be considered. If the chant was P... - then that is understood as racism. If the word ISIS was used, then was that racist or just extremely 'bad taste'?

What is the reasoning behind the complaint that was made? I would like to understand that.

I can also provide examples of where Stephen Fry's quote doesn't stand up .... I placed it in reference to this thread rather than intending any wider philosophical context.

But it always comes up in these sorts of debates and imo it's always wrong.

 

[Worksop II]

But is banter...

;-)

UTMB

Well it used to be just Racism, now its Discrimination as well, expect it to be Banterism next ......................

 

[puppet]

FYI- it's not 'PC' to abhor racism.

No its not, you're right. But how do you define it, how far does it go? Referring to Bradford fans is not racist. Offensive, possibly, but categorically not racist.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Sheffield United ‏@SUFC_tweets 2m2 minutes ago
Discriminatory and abusive language and behaviour are not acceptable at BL, please support us #twitterblades

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Will the Thought Police be wearing bibs so we can identify them and report our concerns?

These are Ice-T (featuring Jimi Hendrix)'s thoughts on the subject. I like them a lot
http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=XdhjjAqNpPU

UTMB

 

[sitwell]

So the mixed-race guy who raised the complaint officially about the Paki/ISIS chants has a sound reasoning for taking offence, it's fair to admit?

Also fair to admit that plenty of those who totally disagree with the chants (i.e. the great majority - who who didn't take part in the chanting, some of whom took active steps to oppose it; these being people of all political persuasions & of no political bent at all) weren't against it because they were "offended" as such, just that they thought it wrong?

Who did he complain to btw ,I know it was to Sheffield united first and he gave them less than 24 hours to respond ,who after that ?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

So you heard nothing, were you even there?

We've done this dance already and I answered your questions. Your assumption are as ignorant as before and your arrogance that fans who have said they heard Paki sung were wrong is clear for all to see.

 

[puppet]

The words were clearly used to demonstrate prejudice and bigotry regardless of the semantics or racist/islamaphobic etc.

Normalisation of racism and/or islamaphobia only serves to add fuel to the fire of the "them and us" divide that is opening. Tarring all Muslims with the brush of Isis is exactly what Isis want. This provokes hatred between muslims and westerners/whites/Christians/athiests/others. En masse hatred being promoted on either side of a divide that ought not to exist is abhorrent.

Excuse me, but what ISIS want, its to establish a worldwide Caliphate under the literal word of God. This nonsense about ISIS cleverly seeing divisive potential within in our society is another crackpot notion created by the establishment, left and right, to avoid looking at the genuine threat posed by them. As for the complainant, he needs to get a life. If he thinks 20 scrotes singing an offensive song for 15 seconds and being silenced by the people surrounding them, why didn't his rationality highlight the positive elements??

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

No its not, you're right. But how do you define it, how far does it go? Referring to Bradford fans is not racist. Offensive, possibly, but categorically not racist.

Come on, linking a whole group of people to a terrorist organisation solely because of their perceived ethnic background is pretty much the very definition of racism.

 

[Bert]

We've done this dance already and I answered your questions. Your assumption are as ignorant as before and your arrogance that fans who have said they heard Paki sung were wrong is clear for all to see.

Were you there? What did you hear?
Two simple questions.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Were you there? What did you hear?
Two simple questions.

Two simple questions I've already answered directly to you.
Two questions for you in return which you have refused to answer. Why are you right and others who said they heard "Paki" wrong? How can you possibly have heard everything?

 

[Bert]

Two simple questions I've already answered directly to you.
Two questions for you in return which you have refused to answer. Why are you right and others who said they heard "Paki" wrong? How can you possibly have heard everything?

Because Bert was there, right on the Kop, that's how he knows what they were singing. Where were you sat?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Because Bert was there, right on the Kop, that's how he knows what they were singing. Where were you sat?

Someone else on the Kop said they heard Paki, you told them they were wrong. Why are you right and they are wrong? The Kop a sizeable place, but no, you said it was bullshit.
As mentioned previously I heard ISIS, which is racist, but I wouldn't therefore say Paki definitely wasn't sung anywhere. I couldn't possibly say that I know.

 

[PokerBlade]

Isis is not a religion or a race so how can this be racist chanting

Here's a hint:

If Bradford didn't have a large Asian population, do you think this would've been sung?

 

[puppet]

In DPP v McFarlane (2002) EWHC 485, Rose LJ found that once the "basic" offence was proved (in this case a public order offence) and that racist language was used that was hostile or threatening to the victim, it made no difference that the defendant may have had an additional reason for using the language. The test under section 28(1)(a) was satisfied.

In DPP v Woods (2002) EWHC 85, the defendant used racially abusive language to a doorman at a nightclub when expressing anger and frustration over being refused admission. It was held, as in McFarlane, that the fact that the primary reason for the offence was other than a racist motivation, the use of racist abuse during the commission of the basic offence made out the test for racial aggravation in section 28(1)(a). The point was made that, ordinarily, the use of racially (or religiously) insulting remarks would, in the normal course of events, be enough to establish a demonstration of hostility.

It's when words like victim are used in court cases about what is essentially name -calling that you realise just what a tangled mess our legal system is. Given the cost of even the smallest court cases it's absurd that such legal gobbledygook should be applied with such earnest, as per the descriptions above. A friend of mine was burgled on NYE in Derby. The burglar, being a busy bee,was caught yesterday, although the substantial haul is as yet unrecovered. News reports show him to be a prolific chap, who was jailed for three years in 2009 for a combined gang haul of over 150 properties. A further report showed he received a similar sentence for similar activity. This time, in 2011... One year according to the report before he was supposedly due to be released. Might be off topic but it just goes to show how on its arse our legal system is when police investigating this matter have been deployed to deal with an absolute non story as this.

 

[puppet]

Disappointing but not surprising. (If I understand it correctly.)

Ultimately thus, in part, is a debate about what constitutes banter isn't it?

Words can be used and understood by one or both parties to be either hate speech or banter.

There are at least four possible scenarios:

Both understand it to be hate speech.
Intended to be hate speech. Understood as banter.
Intended to be banter. Understood as hate speech.
Intended as banter. Understood as banter.

The ruling above seems simplistic to me. Though I may misunderstand it.

Next time Anjem Choudary is welcomed into the BBC studios usually to comment on IS or other linked atrocities, just take note of the genuine hate in every single word he says. Then compare it, honestly, in your heart and mind and ask yourself the ill-advised spontaneous chanting of a few young blokes not really up on the minutiae of political correctness - and quickly silenced by reasonable people and furthermore, not resumed by said numpties - and ask yourself why one is worthy of national broadcast and the other is worthy of wasting already stretched police resources?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I actually agree Puppet. The club should have identified and banned those who'd sung it and it would have been dealt with making the whole thing a none story.
It appears from the outside to be the club reacting to the press and now being led by the nose rather than already being on the front foot.

 

[puppet]

From the South stand I've noticed on at least two occasions since October a posse of stewards have dealt with something in that corner of the Kop. I can't imagine that the CCTV isn't keeping an eye on them so hopefully they'll be easily identified.

If they also happen to be smoke bomb throwers their exclusion will be a bonus

So hopefully they'll be easily identified???? 15 or so youths realising the error of their ways within five seconds of attempting to be witty and finding out they weren't. Best and the army in.

 

[vorpal blade]

Sheffield United ‏@SUFC_tweets 2m2 minutes ago
Discriminatory and abusive language and behaviour are not acceptable at BL, please support us #twitterblades

19 retweets16 likes

This rule is broken EVERY match there ever is at Bramall Lane and EVERY other football ground in the country. Its broken in the stands, the pitch and the changing room.

When does the club try to stop it when they hear it?

When do the Police try to do anything about it?

' We all fcuking hate Leeds', 'I've never felt more like swinging a Pig', 'United hate fcuking Cockneys', 'In your Liverpool slums' (not that we play many of these teams anymore) + manifold individual curses equally and more racially discriminatory.


United and the Police let this go because imposing the rule would cause more trouble than its worth, had the Police waded into the Kop rather than allowing the situation of 'ISIS' chanting to be self-policed as it seems from the reports - that it was.
But Ramon Mohamed has made a complaint so the FA and SUFC have to react.

The club will mouth the correct platitudes (is that the word) and point out that it is
- an equal opportunities employer,
- considers itself a 'community-club'
- blah blah - compare this to what you said to your auntie when she gave you a shirt that you have no intention of wearing on Xmas/Boxing day.

Politeness is what makes the world go round, it would be impolitic of the club if they didn't exhibit a little contrition. The FA will do much the same.

I would like to hear Ramon's side of this and why it was worthy of reporting to the 'authorities' after all he writes he's from a tough part of town, its not as if he won't have been called this and that to his face at football games like - 'Northern Cunt' ......we all have.

and what did we do about it?

I'm willing to bet not one of us contacted the football club where it happened because we know, its just not their fault.

If the message from SUFC quoted at the top of my post is already in the programme or printed on the ticket or elsewhere, then haven't the club already discharged their duty in this regard?
I mean, in terms of actions that may be taken by the FA or more legalistically?

p.s. "I actually agree Puppet. The club should have identified and banned those who'd sung it" - flaming Nora, they'd have had to have acted quickly, it happened less than a week ago in the Xmas holidays! There would be certainly no chance of any defence from those accused either and if these lads are season ticket holders you have to consider repaying them - the chances of false accusations in a crowd scene are very high.

 

[puppet]

Come on, linking a whole group of people to a terrorist organisation solely because of their perceived ethnic background is pretty much the very definition of racism.

For some reason, two words are missing that I thought were in my op, "as IS".
If there was any evil intent then yes. I don't believe there was, just a totally misguided attempt at humour. You could debate that there instigator of this chant was some evil Tommy Robinson type but I would hazard a guess they aren't.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

For some reason, two words are missing that I thought were in my op, "as IS".
If there was any evil intent then yes. I don't believe there was, just a totally misguided attempt at humour. You could debate that there instigator of this chant was some evil Tommy Robinson type but I would hazard a guess they aren't.

If agree, but personally think the club banning them from now till the end of the season would emphasise the message that we dont tolerate this. The club will have acted proportionately and they can acknowledge that these fans were shouted down very quickly by many Blades and we move on. It's certainly a lot more of a positive story than the field day we're giving all the local press currently.
No one gets feathered and tarred, the fans involved might feel a little hard done to but hopefully will have learnt that they have to take responsibility for their actions and the club won't make excuses for them.
As with Ched, the club just seem slow and like they are only reacting because the press make them.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

I'll be fuming if the Posh fans are not executed on the spot if they sing "dirty Yorkshire bastards".

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I'll be fuming if the Posh fans are not executed on the spot if they sing "dirty Yorkshire bastards".

Lets hope they don't face a chant of 'town full of poshies' today otherwise all the red necks will be offended.

 

[sitwell]

This rule is broken EVERY match there ever is at Bramall Lane and EVERY other football ground in the country. Its broken in the stands, the pitch and the changing room.

When does the club try to stop it when they hear it?

When do the Police try to do anything about it?

' We all fcuking hate Leeds', 'I've never felt more like swinging a Pig', 'United hate fcuking Cockneys', 'In your Liverpool slums' (not that we play many of these teams anymore) + manifold individual curses equally and more racially discriminatory.


United and the Police let this go because imposing the rule would cause more trouble than its worth, had the Police waded into the Kop rather than allowing the situation of 'ISIS' chanting to be self-policed as it seems from the reports - that it was.
But Ramon Mohamed has made a complaint so the FA and SUFC have to react.

The club will mouth the correct platitudes (is that the word) and point out that it is
- an equal opportunities employer,
- considers itself a 'community-club'
- blah blah - compare this to what you said to your auntie when she gave you a shirt that you have no intention of wearing on Xmas/Boxing day.

Politeness is what makes the world go round, it would be impolitic of the club if they didn't exhibit a little contrition. The FA will do much the same.

I would like to hear Ramon's side of this and why it was worthy of reporting to the 'authorities' after all he writes he's from a tough part of town, its not as if he won't have been called this and that to his face at football games like - 'Northern Cunt' ......we all have.

and what did we do about it?

I'm willing to bet not one of us contacted the football club where it happened because we know, its just not their fault.

If the message from SUFC quoted at the top of my post is already in the programme or printed on the ticket or elsewhere, then haven't the club already discharged their duty in this regard?
I mean, in terms of actions that may be taken by the FA or more legalistically?

p.s. "I actually agree Puppet. The club should have identified and banned those who'd sung it" - flaming Nora, they'd have had to have acted quickly, it happened less than a week ago in the Xmas holidays! There would be certainly no chance of any defence from those accused either and if these lads are season ticket holders you have to consider repaying them - the chances of false accusations in a crowd scene are very high.

I would be interested to know why Mr Mohammed ,complained to Sheffield United ,and after only 24 hours complained to the FA and then gave his name and address to the press while filing another complaint ? It is not the way I would go about things if I felt I was insulted .And after 40 odd years of going to the Lane this is the first time he has heard a chant like this why is he suddenly insulted ,why didn't he go to the nearest steward or police office as there are plenty in the South stand.
My own view is that he has done more harm than good regarding racial harmony. This had been dealt with by the other fans on the Kop and was not heard again.