Promoted teams and points deductions

[Westran]

There's a lot to play for and we may well still yet have to face the playoffs, but we have a very real chance of being promoted having received a points deduction, there aren't many examples but there are some teams that have succeeded despite points deductions.

I thought we might have been the first before I started searching but there are a few cases. It shows it's possible, I just wonder what the media narrative and that from rival fans will be if we achieve promotion, if any. Here are a few notable cases of the company we'll keep should we get promoted :

Luton Town (2013–14, Conference Premier)

Points Deduction: Luton were deducted 10 points for entering administration during the previous season.
Outcome: Despite the deduction, they won the Conference Premier (now National League) and were promoted to the Football League.

Bournemouth (2009–10, League Two)

Points Deduction: Started the season with a 17-point deduction due to financial issues.
Outcome: They still managed to finish 2nd and earned promotion to League One.

Rotherham United (2007–08, League Two)

Points Deduction: They were deducted 10 points for entering administration.
Outcome: They finished in the playoff places but did not achieve promotion that year. However, their ability to reach the playoffs despite the deduction was impressive.

Leicester City (1995–96, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: Leicester were deducted 3 points early in the season due to a failure to control their players in a mass brawl against Stoke City.
Outcome: Despite the deduction, they finished 5th and won the playoffs, earning promotion to the Premier League.

Middlesbrough (1997–98, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: The previous season, in the Premier League (1996–97), they were deducted 3 points for failing to fulfill a fixture against Blackburn. This contributed to their relegation.
Outcome: In 1997–98, despite the points deduction carrying over, Middlesbrough finished 2nd and were automatically promoted back to the Premier League.

Does anyone have any other examples? Or are there any inaccuracies with the ChatGPT supplied list above?

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

As far as I can remember the points deduction for Boro didn't carry over to the next season.

Bournemouth didn't start the 2009/10 season with a 17 point deduction. They went up on 83 points. 25 wins, 8 draws.

You might want to check your others as ChatGPT might be full of crap on this one.

 

[Willglynning]

The Bournemouth points deduction happened the season before.

That was a wild season, where Luton started on -30 points and Rotherham and Bournemouth both points deductions of -17. Darlington went on to get a -10 point deduction too.

Luton went down, but Bournemouth and Rotherham both stayed up.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

It only goes to show that points deductions don't work and cheats can prosper ala Forest. They deliberately over spent then did dodgy deals to over value players being "sold" with "swap" deals to balance the books in their favour. They had been selling players to their sister club for years, over valuing them to balance the books. They've been cheating for years. Now they're back in the Champions League. What's the point in playing fair anymore?

Personally I think there should be a transfer embargo and any players you signed through cheating you are not allowed to use for X number of games.

The main thing really is that the Premier League has lost control of spending and finances. They need to bring in a salary cap and reduce the percentage of income that can be spent on wages. It works in American sports and levels the field.

I genuinely hate and despise the Premier League. I don't watch any Premier League football unless we're in it, even then I watch our games only, though last season I stopped doing that.

 

[Gimli]

It’s a ‘didn’t quite make it’ example but Leeds started the 2007-8 season on -15 in league one but reached the play off final, only to crumble losing to Donny 1-0!

 

[Trigger Blade]

It’s not infallible but I have a memory of Luton getting a 30 point deduction in D2, which took them out of the league?

 

[Torrix1889]

How Leicester have only ever had a 3 point deduction is baffling....heard supplies of brown envelopes in the shire are at an all time low....

 

[Cassius Kray]

There's a lot to play for and we may well still yet have to face the playoffs, but we have a very real chance of being promoted having received a points deduction, there aren't many examples but there are some teams that have succeeded despite points deductions.

I thought we might have been the first before I started searching but there are a few cases. It shows it's possible, I just wonder what the media narrative and that from rival fans will be if we achieve promotion, if any. Here are a few notable cases of the company we'll keep should we get promoted :

Luton Town (2013–14, Conference Premier)

Points Deduction: Luton were deducted 10 points for entering administration during the previous season.
Outcome: Despite the deduction, they won the Conference Premier (now National League) and were promoted to the Football League.

Bournemouth (2009–10, League Two)

Points Deduction: Started the season with a 17-point deduction due to financial issues.
Outcome: They still managed to finish 2nd and earned promotion to League One.

Rotherham United (2007–08, League Two)

Points Deduction: They were deducted 10 points for entering administration.
Outcome: They finished in the playoff places but did not achieve promotion that year. However, their ability to reach the playoffs despite the deduction was impressive.

Leicester City (1995–96, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: Leicester were deducted 3 points early in the season due to a failure to control their players in a mass brawl against Stoke City.
Outcome: Despite the deduction, they finished 5th and won the playoffs, earning promotion to the Premier League.

Middlesbrough (1997–98, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: The previous season, in the Premier League (1996–97), they were deducted 3 points for failing to fulfill a fixture against Blackburn. This contributed to their relegation.
Outcome: In 1997–98, despite the points deduction carrying over, Middlesbrough finished 2nd and were automatically promoted back to the Premier League.

Does anyone have any other examples? Or are there any inaccuracies with the ChatGPT supplied list above?

This is an interesting topic but you've wasted everyone's time sourcing it from ChatGPT.

Don't use generative AI to source factual information.

If you'd bothered to do even a cursory check you'd have seen that this list is inaccurate. Which is pretty obvious when you look at it - finishing second with a 17 points deduction? That didn't even make you curious to double-check? Despite the warnings on ChatGPT's website itself that it's prone to hallucination? Bournemouth were given the points deduction in the previous season (edit: not entirely sure if they were relegated from L1 or not as a result). I suspect the same is true of some of your other unlikely examples.

 

[Revolution]

Chesterfield went up from what is now League Two in 2000-1 having had 9 points deducted for financial irregularities arising out of the Darren Brown regime. They would have finished second but ended up in third. The points deduction came during the season from memory.

Southampton finished seventh in league one in 2009-10 having had a 10 point deduction for entering administration. They would have made the playoffs in fifth place absent the deduction.

Arsenal had two points deducted in 1990-1 for their part in a brawl at Old Trafford that season (Man U had one point deducted). They still won the league by seven points.

Westran every single example in your original post is wrong in some way. Don't use Chat GPT, or at least check it.

 

[Westran]

Chesterfield went up from what is now League Two in 2000-1 having had 9 points deducted for financial irregularities arising out of the Darren Brown regime. They would have finished second but ended up in third. The points deduction came during the season from memory.

Southampton finished seventh in league one in 2009-10 having had a 10 point deduction for entering administration. They would have made the playoffs in fifth place absent the deduction.

Arsenal had two points deducted in 1990-1 for their part in a brawl at Old Trafford that season (Man U had one point deducted). They still won the league by seven points.

Westran every single example in your original post is wrong in some way. Don't use Chat GPT, or at least check it.

I effectively delegated fact checking to you. So thanks for that. And well done.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

There's a lot to play for and we may well still yet have to face the playoffs, but we have a very real chance of being promoted having received a points deduction, there aren't many examples but there are some teams that have succeeded despite points deductions.

I thought we might have been the first before I started searching but there are a few cases. It shows it's possible, I just wonder what the media narrative and that from rival fans will be if we achieve promotion, if any. Here are a few notable cases of the company we'll keep should we get promoted :

Luton Town (2013–14, Conference Premier)

Points Deduction: Luton were deducted 10 points for entering administration during the previous season.
Outcome: Despite the deduction, they won the Conference Premier (now National League) and were promoted to the Football League.

Bournemouth (2009–10, League Two)

Points Deduction: Started the season with a 17-point deduction due to financial issues.
Outcome: They still managed to finish 2nd and earned promotion to League One.

Rotherham United (2007–08, League Two)

Points Deduction: They were deducted 10 points for entering administration.
Outcome: They finished in the playoff places but did not achieve promotion that year. However, their ability to reach the playoffs despite the deduction was impressive.

Leicester City (1995–96, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: Leicester were deducted 3 points early in the season due to a failure to control their players in a mass brawl against Stoke City.
Outcome: Despite the deduction, they finished 5th and won the playoffs, earning promotion to the Premier League.

Middlesbrough (1997–98, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: The previous season, in the Premier League (1996–97), they were deducted 3 points for failing to fulfill a fixture against Blackburn. This contributed to their relegation.
Outcome: In 1997–98, despite the points deduction carrying over, Middlesbrough finished 2nd and were automatically promoted back to the Premier League.

Does anyone have any other examples? Or are there any inaccuracies with the ChatGPT supplied list above?

West Ham 2006-2007

Signed Carlos Tevez in a breach of rules, got deducted 2 points and were relegated.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Chesterfield went up from what is now League Two in 2000-1 having had 9 points deducted for financial irregularities arising out of the Darren Brown regime. They would have finished second but ended up in third. The points deduction came during the season from memory.

Southampton finished seventh in league one in 2009-10 having had a 10 point deduction for entering administration. They would have made the playoffs in fifth place absent the deduction.

Arsenal had two points deducted in 1990-1 for their part in a brawl at Old Trafford that season (Man U had one point deducted). They still won the league by seven points.

Westran every single example in your original post is wrong in some way. Don't use Chat GPT, or at least check it.

Alternatively, make posts like this on April 1st, not April 2nd.

 

[DifferentClass]

This is an interesting topic but you've wasted everyone's time sourcing it from ChatGPT.

Don't use generative AI to source factual information.

If you'd bothered to do even a cursory check you'd have seen that this list is inaccurate. Which is pretty obvious when you look at it - finishing second with a 17 points deduction? That didn't even make you curious to double-check? Despite the warnings on ChatGPT's website itself that it's prone to hallucination? Bournemouth were given the points deduction in the previous season (edit: not entirely sure if they were relegated from L1 or not as a result). I suspect the same is true of some of your other unlikely examples.

Asking ChatGPT for summat is as risky as smearing dog food on your wedding tackle and dangling it above a pen of XL bullies

 

[Northyorksblade]

It would be very Sheffield United, if we were deducted more points for our fifth mass brawl in a season.

 

[LBA_Blade]

It's a difficult one with points deductions as realistically it is what it for and who are you actually punishing. If a club goes into administration the chances are they are bought out by a new owner(s) which doesn't punish the previous ownership but puts the current owners at a disadvantage (look at Bury amongst many others eventually leading to liquidation). Our points deduction goes back to the 2022-23 and defaulting on player payments, this is now under a previous owner however the current club and owners, fans and players are affected by the running of the club. The ownership of players by the league and a franchise model could help that but the rich clubs wouldn't share the wealth (and why would they). I think the benchmark will be when they decide on Man City although even if you docked them -30 they probably will stay up and currently they would be a place above the relegation zone on a poor season by their standards.

 

[Melbourne Blade]

In 2020/21 a club called Sheffield Wednesday were deducted 12 points (later rescinded to 6 I believe) and were relegated to league one. They also failed to pay their players on time soon after and received a further suspended points deduction.

Wrong thread?

 

[Torrix1889]

It would be very Sheffield United, if we were deducted more points for our fifth mass brawl in a season.

Takes 2 to tango....but I know what you mean.

Keep a tight leash on Sydie for the next 7 games........having said that, he has walked away from the last couple of contentious situations so I do wonder if CWAK have already had a word!

 

[wadblade]

West Ham 2006-2007

Signed Carlos Tevez in a breach of rules, got deducted 2 points and were relegated.

also in a game about 3 from end of season (Reading I think) Wham were awarded a goal which TV showed was a foot short of the line the extra points gained kept them up

 

[Thrice]

It only goes to show that points deductions don't work and cheats can prosper ala Forest. They deliberately over spent then did dodgy deals to over value players being "sold" with "swap" deals to balance the books in their favour. They had been selling players to their sister club for years, over valuing them to balance the books. They've been cheating for years. Now they're back in the Champions League. What's the point in playing fair anymore?

Personally I think there should be a transfer embargo and any players you signed through cheating you are not allowed to use for X number of games.

The main thing really is that the Premier League has lost control of spending and finances. They need to bring in a salary cap and reduce the percentage of income that can be spent on wages. It works in American sports and levels the field.

I genuinely hate and despise the Premier League. I don't watch any Premier League football unless we're in it, even then I watch our games only, though last season I stopped doing that.

Thing is, the only reason they even introduced a salary cap in American sports is because the owners were starting to lose money. And the players fought against it hard.

Just can't see it happen in football, unfortunately. The Premier League won't restrict themselves from attracting the best players in the world.

 

[Jan Age]

It would be very Sheffield United, if we were deducted more points for our fifth mass brawl in a season.

Dot even joke mate the league will be panicking about Leeds not making it and will be conjuring up plans

 

[Blade56]

Leicester City (1995–96, First Division – now Championship)

Points Deduction: Leicester were deducted 3 points early in the season due to a failure to control their players in a mass brawl against Stoke City.

Bit worrying if they’re looking for a reason

 

[Revolution]

Bit worrying if they’re looking for a reason

It would be if it had actually happened, which it didn’t.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Thing is, the only reason they even introduced a salary cap in American sports is because the owners were starting to lose money. And the players fought against it hard.

Just can't see it happen in football, unfortunately. The Premier League won't restrict themselves from attracting the best players in the world.

Not the only reason. One thing that all US sports seem to have in common is that they love parity - they don't want the same team winning everything all the time. Hence the draft AND the salary cap, which incidentally (in the NFL at least) is not just a maximum amount spent on salary, it's also a minimum amount. Owners aren't allowed to reduce players' pay to save money.

 

[Selly]

also in a game about 3 from end of season (Reading I think) Wham were awarded a goal which TV showed was a foot short of the line the extra points gained kept them up

Blackburn - it was offside as well.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Not the only reason. One thing that all US sports seem to have in common is that they love parity - they don't want the same team winning everything all the time. Hence the draft AND the salary cap, which incidentally (in the NFL at least) is not just a maximum amount spent on salary, it's also a minimum amount. Owners aren't allowed to reduce players' pay to save money.

The affiliate team system in the NHL is also good. You have your 20 man game day squad then if a player is injured, you can call a player up from the AHL to the NHL to replace them. When the player is back from injury they either replace the player from the AHL and they return to the lower league, or the AHL player keeps their place and the injured player from the NHL drops to the AHL, or both keep their place and an underperforming player loses their place instead and drops to the AHL. It keeps everyone on their toes and at their best at all times.

Bring back reserve team football. It could be used this way in the Premier League and the EFL. It would also improve player fitness and reduce long term injuries as players would regularly get more minutes. If you only come off the bench 5 or 10 minutes all season then of course you're not going to last 90 when you finally get the chance. You're also more likely to get injured as your body won't be used to the demands of regular football. It's like running 5k when you haven't run for 6 months. Your calves will probably seize up and you'll get injured. You have to build up to it no matter how good you used to be.

I also like the waivers system which could be implemented in January transfer windows.

English football could learn so much from American sports, apart from time outs and ad breaks.

 

[Selly]

English football could learn so much from American sports, apart from time outs and ad breaks.

And the closed shop.

The reason a salary cap works in American sport is because there is very little risk to the owners. They get there TV money irrespective if how useless they are.

The PL/EFL/CL is not set up like that. You need the best players to stay at the top of the tree and protect your revenue streams.

And there is no incentive for those at the top of the tree to change how the cash is distributed to be "fairer".

Make no mistake, talk of a closed shop PL will start up. They tried it with the CL and it will treat it's ugly head again.

(Of course if we are inside the closed shop, and Wendy aren't, it might just be worth it to see them permanently an underclass of a club, imagine the frothing and wailing)

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

And the closed shop.

The reason a salary cap works in American sport is because there is very little risk to the owners. They get there TV money irrespective if how useless they are.

The PL/EFL/CL is not set up like that. You need the best players to stay at the top of the tree and protect your revenue streams.

And there is no incentive for those at the top of the tree to change how the cash is distributed to be "fairer".

Make no mistake, talk of a closed shop PL will start up. They tried it with the CL and it will treat it's ugly head again.

(Of course if we are inside the closed shop, and Wendy aren't, it might just be worth it to see them permanently an underclass of a club, imagine the frothing and wailing)

To the best of my knowledge the TV money is also equal. It doesn't matter how many times you're on TV, you all receive the same money. Something the Premier League does not do and helps certain clubs have a financial advantage by televising every game. US sports allow localised networks to show all of their local teams games home and away, so everyone can watch every game. All games are televised so you don't get this "Super Sunday" garbage.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

.... smearing dog food on your wedding tackle and dangling it above a pen of XL bullies

Very 'LYDON' 100%.

 

[BarcaBlade]

Takes 2 to tango....but I know what you mean.

Keep a tight leash on Sydie for the next 7 games........having said that, he has walked away from the last couple of contentious situations so I do wonder if CWAK have already had a word!

Clearly, it'll be a brawl in the game against Burnley with them deducted one point and us two, leaving us in third on goal difference.

 

[Bartleby]

This is an interesting topic but you've wasted everyone's time sourcing it from ChatGPT.

Don't use generative AI to source factual information.

If you'd bothered to do even a cursory check you'd have seen that this list is inaccurate. Which is pretty obvious when you look at it - finishing second with a 17 points deduction? That didn't even make you curious to double-check? Despite the warnings on ChatGPT's website itself that it's prone to hallucination? Bournemouth were given the points deduction in the previous season (edit: not entirely sure if they were relegated from L1 or not as a result). I suspect the same is true of some of your other unlikely examples.

Hopefully all the kids using it to cheat in their exams this summer will be a bit more careful than the OP