Outgoing? SANDER BERGE ON WAY OUT ?

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Flatulent_Bob said:
You are, of course, conveniently ignoring the significantly higher wages, which means it's not cheaper at all, as well as not acknowledging that those players wouldn't have any real sell on potential, whereas Brewster is potentially huge.
Aside from that, you're bang on.
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I think we get too hung up on resale value (both fans, and the club). If they’d come in and done a better job and kept us up, I really couldn’t give a shit whether we could sell them for what we paid. We’ve always had a problem whereby we focus on the future when it’s the here and now that needs sorting out.
 
Latters said:
I think we get too hung up on resale value (both fans, and the club). If they’d come in and done a better job and kept us up, I really couldn’t give a shit whether we could sell them for what we paid. We’ve always had a problem whereby we focus on the future when it’s the here and now that needs sorting out.
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Imagine a club getting 'hung up' on financial security....

The flipside of this is what if the people who likes of Deeney had come in on 80k / week, not kept us up and we are stuck with them on the wage bill next year hampering any other signings, or they leave having spunked 5m up the wall. In the meantime, would have likely driven up the wider wage bill amongst key existing player.

Over the last 2 seasons planning for the hear and now only and not as if relegation wasnt a very real possibility is as thick as it is financially negligent.

Easy not to "give a shit" when its someone else's money

For the record I'm not saying we've got every decision right, far from it, but there was clearly a thought process to it.
 
JonnyD said:
Imagine a club getting 'hung up' on financial security....

The flipside of this is what if the people who likes of Deeney had come in on 80k / week, not kept us up and we are stuck with them on the wage bill next year hampering any other signings, or they leave having spunked 5m up the wall. In the meantime, would have likely driven up the wider wage bill amongst key existing player.

Over the last 2 seasons planning for the hear and now only and not as if relegation wasnt a very real possibility is as thick as it is financially negligent.

Easy not to "give a shit" when its someone else's money

For the record I'm not saying we've got every decision right, far from it, but there was clearly a thought process to it.
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It’s not as simple as getting hung up on “financial security” though, it’s a calculated risk. Sign more proven players for a little less financial outlay. The end result is either a player who is worth less and you’ve spent a lot on wages, but, if you go for the better players, there is more chance of staying in the Premier League, where the big money is.

I also think we give the players too little credit and just assume they’ll be ridiculously greedy and want parity as soon as someone comes in on a big wage. I doubt this is the case. In fact, I’ve just read Paddy Kenny’s book and he openly said that players of promoted clubs generally accept that if they are signing established players with PL experience that they will come in on much more money than the existing highest earners.

Investing mostly in players for the future when the first team is doing badly is like a small start up buying a massive warehouse for their stock when they’ve not developed a market for their product yet.

If we’d signed Lingard or Barkley and Wilson or Deeney, I’d fancy them to have had much more of a positive impact on our first team performances than Brewster and Berge this season.

Establish ourselves, then look at investing multiple millions in players that aren’t ready yet.
 
Latters said:
I think we get too hung up on resale value (both fans, and the club). If they’d come in and done a better job and kept us up, I really couldn’t give a shit whether we could sell them for what we paid. We’ve always had a problem whereby we focus on the future when it’s the here and now that needs sorting out.
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Any investment in players should consider the potential re-sale value else you're ignoring what maybe a major factor in it's overall value.
If Brewster was 29 he wouldn't have cost what he did. We pay a premium due to his resale value and future potential.
If you are evaluating value for money then you need to include that in your consideration, same as seeing the amount paid over the length of his deal. Brewster signed a 5 year deal, while ever he's got 2-3 left on that deal it's harsh to judge him against the original outlay. For all we know he could be here 10 years at £2.3M a year plus wages which would be a bargain. Alternatively we could sell him in a couple of years for £40M, and of course he could flop and we can't move him on and he leaves when his contract ends.
Your issue with the here and now lies solely with the manager. Wilder either though he was ready and was wrong, or was buying for the future and thought the risk should be taken. None of that is Brewster's problem.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
Any investment in players should consider the potential re-sale value else you're ignoring what maybe a major factor in it's overall value.
If Brewster was 29 he wouldn't have cost what he did. We pay a premium due to his resale value and future potential.
If you are evaluating value for money then you need to include that in your consideration, same as seeing the amount paid over the length of his deal. Brewster signed a 5 year deal, while ever he's got 2-3 left on that deal it's harsh to judge him against the original outlay. For all we know he could be here 10 years at £2.3M a year plus wages which would be a bargain. Alternatively we could sell him in 12 months time for £35M, and of course he could flop and we can't move him on and he leaves when his contract ends.
Your issue with the here and now is a manager issue. Wilder either though he was ready and was wrong, or was buying for the future and thought the risk should be taken.
None of that is Brewster's problem.
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Don’t think I’m slating Brewster, I’m not. I think he’ll be great for us next season in the second tier, and long-term he should be a decent buy. I just think he was the wrong type of purchase for a club in our position.

We did the same when we went up under Warnock. He spent a fair whack of his budget on players for the future, without focusing on the task of keeping us up in the first place. I think signings like Brewster are for more established clubs than us. Get a footing in the league, then look to the future. Or, if we wanted to play the big dogs, we could have signed him, loaned him out and used the loan fee on a short term deal for someone who could make an immediate impact.
 
Latters said:
Don’t think I’m slating Brewster, I’m not. I think he’ll be great for us next season in the second tier, and long-term he should be a decent buy. I just think he was the wrong type of purchase for a club in our position.

We did the same when we went up under Warnock. He spent a fair whack of his budget on players for the future, without focusing on the task of keeping us up in the first place. I think signings like Brewster are for more established clubs than us. Get a footing in the league, then look to the future. Or, if we wanted to play the big dogs, we could have signed him, loaned him out and used the loan fee on a short term deal for someone who could make an immediate impact.
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I wouldn't disagree but I think the blame for that lies with the manager who sanctioned that deal.
Established teams like Palace can afford to buy Eze and Brewster because they have Zaha and others who are performing right now, for this season.
I also think Wilder has been let down by the form of our midfield which hasn't given him the opportunity to really let Rhian show what he can do.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
I wouldn't disagree but I think the blame for that lies with the manager who sanctioned that deal.
Established teams like Palace can afford to buy Eze and Brewster because they have Zaha and others who are performing right now, for this season.
I also think Wilder has been let down by the form of our midfield which hasn't given him the opportunity to really let Rhian show what he can do.
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Yes, I’d agree with that. It’s just unfortunate that both of the managers that took us up are more accustomed to the lower divisions where we can afford to build for the future and improve the first team gradually. The difference between the top and second tiers is greater than that meaning we need to make more drastic changes to the first eleven more quickly.

A lot of things have conspired to stifle Brewster. Form, injuries and our wide players’ utter reluctance to “fuckin gerrit in’t box.”
 
Latters said:
Yes, I’d agree with that. It’s just unfortunate that both of the managers that took us up are more accustomed to the lower divisions where we can afford to build for the future and improve the first team gradually. The difference between the top and second tiers is greater than that meaning we need to make more drastic changes to the first eleven more quickly.

A lot of things have conspired to stifle Brewster. Form, injuries and our wide players’ utter reluctance to “fuckin gerrit in’t box.”
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I still maintain that Wilders biggest challenge was other PL sides suddenly deciding that Championship players were worth considering. West Ham, Villa, Palace along we’re suddenly in for our targets and could blow us out the water. Previously these sides were looking elsewhere either abroad or to players who had failed at bigger PL clubs. Not now, those along with Fulham and Brighton were competing with us and we didn’t have deep enough pockets and no plan B
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
I still maintain that Wilders biggest challenge was other PL sides suddenly deciding that Championship players were worth considering. West Ham, Villa, Palace along we’re suddenly in for our targets and could blow us out the water. Previously these sides were looking elsewhere either abroad or to players who had failed at bigger PL clubs. Not now, those along with Fulham and Brighton were competing with us and we didn’t have deep enough pockets and no plan B
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It was villa completely shifting the market by paying high fees for players. All those clubs didn’t necessarily over pay for the player they brought in obviously wages would be high but the fees were relatively normal. The cash and Watkins deals were exorbitant and shifted the market dramatically.
 
Latters said:
Yes, I’d agree with that. It’s just unfortunate that both of the managers that took us up are more accustomed to the lower divisions where we can afford to build for the future and improve the first team gradually. The difference between the top and second tiers is greater than that meaning we need to make more drastic changes to the first eleven more quickly.

A lot of things have conspired to stifle Brewster. Form, injuries and our wide players’ utter reluctance to “fuckin gerrit in’t box.”
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i agree with you on your last point this fannying about playing in triangles in wide areas instead of getting some early crosses in has done our strikers no favours all it does is allow the opposition to organise in their penalty area but those tactics had to be planned by cw/ak
 
ancientblade said:
i agree with you on your last point this fannying about playing in triangles in wide areas instead of getting some early crosses in has done our strikers no favours all it does is allow the opposition to organise in their penalty area but those tactics had to be planned by cw/ak
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Think the triangles outside creating overloads works very effectively when it isn’t the only thing we’ve got. Last year and especially in the promotion year we carried real threat through the middle aswell which forced teams to account for it and not just jam up the flanks with bodies. This year it’s just sad to watch we carry no threat through the middle and really since the injuries started to bite haven’t overloaded the flanks either. We’ve relied on bogle to create something outside with his pace and running otherwise we’ve offered very little.
 
Yogi said:
Think the triangles outside creating overloads works very effectively when it isn’t the only thing we’ve got. Last year and especially in the promotion year we carried real threat through the middle aswell which forced teams to account for it and not just jam up the flanks with bodies. This year it’s just sad to watch we carry no threat through the middle and really since the injuries started to bite haven’t overloaded the flanks either. We’ve relied on bogle to create something outside with his pace and running otherwise we’ve offered very little.
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the thing is when we were having success with these triangles we were doing it at pace and zipping the ball about its been so slow and predictable this season in any case for me as soon as joc was ruled out for the season we should have tried something different never thought chris would stick with a system which obviously wasnt working all weve done is get relegated with a wimper
 
Latters said:
It’s not as simple as getting hung up on “financial security” though, it’s a calculated risk. Sign more proven players for a little less financial outlay. The end result is either a player who is worth less and you’ve spent a lot on wages, but, if you go for the better players, there is more chance of staying in the Premier League, where the big money is.

I also think we give the players too little credit and just assume they’ll be ridiculously greedy and want parity as soon as someone comes in on a big wage. I doubt this is the case. In fact, I’ve just read Paddy Kenny’s book and he openly said that players of promoted clubs generally accept that if they are signing established players with PL experience that they will come in on much more money than the existing highest earners.

Investing mostly in players for the future when the first team is doing badly is like a small start up buying a massive warehouse for their stock when they’ve not developed a market for their product yet.

If we’d signed Lingard or Barkley and Wilson or Deeney, I’d fancy them to have had much more of a positive impact on our first team performances than Brewster and Berge this season.

Establish ourselves, then look at investing multiple millions in players that aren’t ready yet.
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Take the point on calculated risk, but its just not really a risk we can afford to lose. When the lose outcome if potentially crippling the club for years to come, just doesn't stack up.

For a club in our position planning on a 2-3 year horizon is no bad thing, if we yo-yo for a couple of years - then you've got to say we'll be doing okay (perhaps not spectacularly - but that rarely happens in football). People forget we are still building from years in League 1.

Not a criticism, it's human nature to be greedy and self serving, footballers are no different. On wages not saying parity will be demanded, but when it comes to renegotiation its gets tricky. Just look at what has happened with Lundstram...

I agree that Lingard, Barkley, Wilson etc probably would have had greater impact in the here and now, but we are just fishing in a different pond.

Easy with hindsight but 100% we could have recruited better, just not the likes of Deeney etc would have been the right approach. The ideal would have been younger players who could have been impacted the first team (Bogle being a prime example)
 
Building for the future, ie, making sure our team continually gets better, will always be fine with me.

First time establishing in the premier league is a gamble you'll usually lose, buying "for here and now" might get you another year or 2 but the drop will always be looming. And then youre just stuck with bloated wages and players who you just dont really need (and who will probably sulk and force a move when the drop comes).

Maintained all along, becoming a yo-yo club for now would be a country mile ahead of our curve this last 20 years. Going down having signed some proven championship talent isn't bad at all imo and will hopefully let us keep picking up some cash and players moving into the future. Viewing things over 5 years (both ways) instead of 1, we are doing great.
 

Latters said:
Establish ourselves, then look at investing multiple millions in players that aren’t ready yet.
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Maybe... But we'd just deservedly finished top 10. There was seemingly a window of opportunity to bring in some bright sparks to learn the ropes.
Some of our most experienced players caused our difficulties this season. Albeit the problems started after March 2020...
 
Latters said:
I think we get too hung up on resale value (both fans, and the club). If they’d come in and done a better job and kept us up, I really couldn’t give a shit whether we could sell them for what we paid. We’ve always had a problem whereby we focus on the future when it’s the here and now that needs sorting out.
Click to expand...

There is no proof they would have kept us up.
The Problem is we just don't create enough chances we are too slow in our build up play, even Jamie Vardy who is better then all those three put together would struggle in our side.
 
Broomhall Blade said:
There is no proof they would have kept us up.
The Problem is we just don't create enough chances we are too slow in our build up play, even Jamie Vardy who is better then all those three put together would struggle in our side.
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Theres no proving anything until it happens. There’s no proof that Berge or Brewster will improve, or won’t get injured and adversely affect their value. It’s a gamble just the same. Regardless of whether they do improve, and I think they will and will be decent long term signings if we keep them, I’m of the opinion that if we’d signed a proven, Premier League quality creative midfielder and striker it would have been much more likely to have had a positive impact on our results this season.
 
Manchester City have been named as a suitor for the midfielder and their interest gets highlighted by Voetbal24.

It’s claimed Man City are looking to replace Fernandinho in the summer and the 23-year-old is on top of their target list.
 
Belvedere Blade said:
Manchester City have been named as a suitor for the midfielder and their interest gets highlighted by Voetbal24.

It’s claimed Man City are looking to replace Fernandinho in the summer and the 23-year-old is on top of their target list.
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Can’t be he’s bad at football after all. Would make sense he fits the profile they look for in centremid they tried with rodri but it’s not quite worked so makes sense they’d try again.
 
With most of the big clubs circling, this has got the makings of a very lucrative auction for both Utd and the player.

I'm not sure he's a natural replacement for Fernandinho myself but if Man City want to pay a fortune to find out that's ok with me.
 
Fair play if we get £35m for him it's been a good bit of business from....the prince?

He clearly doesn't want to stay. If a player is getting this much paper talk his agent is doing overtime
 
There won’t be a bidding war if there’s a release clause that’s met. It’ll be whatever our owners deemed to be acceptable at the time of purchase.
It’s all just media speculation as it stands anyway.
 
CoatesyBlade said:
There won’t be a bidding war if there’s a release clause that’s met. It’ll be whatever our owners deemed to be acceptable at the time of purchase.
It’s all just media speculation as it stands anyway.
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I would guess that these vultures are circling because there's an attractive release clause...at least we won't make a loss for once
 
Millhousesblade1889 said:
Fair play if we get £35m for him it's been a good bit of business from....the prince?

He clearly doesn't want to stay. If a player is getting this much paper talk his agent is doing overtime
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That or journalists are wanting to fill empty space and it’s an obvious one. Or his Agent is trying to earn himself a payday.
Nothing from Berge that suggests he wants to leave; albeit unlikely anyway as we can only go off social media pictures, unlike Lundstram who we can see in his match day attitude.
 

Liaminho9 said:
That or journalists are wanting to fill empty space and it’s an obvious one. Or his Agent is trying to earn himself a payday.
Nothing from Berge that suggests he wants to leave; albeit unlikely anyway as we can only go off social media pictures, unlike Lundstram who we can see in his match day attitude.
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Unlike Lundstrum who just doesn't bother attempting to make any effort at all but gets 90 minutes every game
 
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