The Chris Wilder to a 'Big Club' Fallacy

[Kanye]

Sorry mate, but that all comes across as a bit defeatist. The teams who play at the top of European football have enjoyed a degree of hegemony. Why cannot Wilder, and the Blades achieve the same?
It may take a while, but I’m sure our club can now continue to grow in stature, satisfying Wilders “drive and ambition”.
You are correct that he will not be short of offers, but he recognizes that he has the time, and the control mechanisms at the Lane, that he will not get anywhere else in Europe.

It may sound defeatist, but that's purely due to the nature of the financial disparity between the top 6 and the rest of us. I'm not a defeatist person, I'm actually very optimistic: I'm optimistic we can keep Wilder in the short/medium term and I'm optimistic he will be able to keep us at this end of the table during that time.
However, there's a reason why Leicester's title win was so special, and there's a reason why there hasn't been a surprise winner in the Champions League since Mourinho's Porto in 2004.

All the major leagues (and plenty of minor ones) across Europe are experiencing domination by the super-rich elite. In some cases (France, Germany & Italy) that domination is at the hands of one club. Here and in Spain, the same dominance can be seen, but the difference being that the league title is shared between 2-4 teams.

The teams in question are going to be near impossible to catch. You might be able to give them a quick kick while they're going through a rough patch, and thanks to a couple of the PL superpowers are having simultaneous rough patches, there's a brief opportunity to temporarily gate crash the champions league party. However, they will not be sharing the title, nor does that seem remotely likely in the foreseeable future either.

The big teams, thanks to their vastly superior matchday and commercial incomes, now turnover between £400m-£600m. The teams outside the top 6 earn, at best £200m. In the last published figures, Everton, the team with the best turnover, earned £189m - you're looking at needing to double their income to compete with teams like Arsenal and Tottenham and nearly treble it to compete with Man Utd, City and Liverpool.

I know what you're going to say; "money doesn't necessarily buy success" and the simple fact is, that ultimately, it does. Despite the occasional (and increasingly rare) underdog story, money talks and the biggest, richest clubs enjoy the most success.

My ultimate point is that United winning the PL or CL is practically impossible, and if Wilder has an ambition to win either competition, his best bet will be elsewhere. I don't think admitting that is defeatist.

 

[Kanye]

But we ain’t a Burnley or Bournemouth either.

Other than our current league position and manager, what in your mind separates us from a team like Burnley or Bournemouth?

 

[BushBlade]

Ok so we ain’t a “massive” club and we more than anybody know where we belong in the football pyramid. But we ain’t a Burnley or Bournemouth either. We are a big city club now operating in a big city league and the shock and amazement at our lofty position is starting to grate a little bit. We as a club from the city of Sheffield belong in the top flight just as much London,
Liverpool and Manchester teams.
Ok so us and the pigs have hardly set the football world alight over the last 20 years. But surely the biggest surprise of our successful first season back is....Why has it taken so long for a team from the “Steel City” to establish itself in the English Premier League?

I get what you’re saying but having a decent stadium, a bit of history and coming from a big city doesn’t even give you the right to be in the PL these days. Bournemouth and Burnley have earned more or less the same as we have this season, and they’ve had similar money coming in for the last five years.
Wilder has done a fantastic job, let’s not make out he hasn’t by saying ‘it’s where we should be’. It isn’t.

 

[Charlieblade]

It may sound defeatist, but that's purely due to the nature of the financial disparity between the top 6 and the rest of us. I'm not a defeatist person, I'm actually very optimistic: I'm optimistic we can keep Wilder in the short/medium term and I'm optimistic he will be able to keep us at this end of the table during that time.
However, there's a reason why Leicester's title win was so special, and there's a reason why there hasn't been a surprise winner in the Champions League since Mourinho's Porto in 2004.

All the major leagues (and plenty of minor ones) across Europe are experiencing domination by the super-rich elite. In some cases (France, Germany & Italy) that domination is at the hands of one club. Here and in Spain, the same dominance can be seen, but the difference being that the league title is shared between 2-4 teams.

The teams in question are going to be near impossible to catch. You might be able to give them a quick kick while they're going through a rough patch, and thanks to a couple of the PL superpowers are having simultaneous rough patches, there's a brief opportunity to temporarily gate crash the champions league party. However, they will not be sharing the title, nor does that seem remotely likely in the foreseeable future either.

The big teams, thanks to their vastly superior matchday and commercial incomes, now turnover between £400m-£600m. The teams outside the top 6 earn, at best £200m. In the last published figures, Everton, the team with the best turnover, earned £189m - you're looking at needing to double their income to compete with teams like Arsenal and Tottenham and nearly treble it to compete with Man Utd, City and Liverpool.

I know what you're going to say; "money doesn't necessarily buy success" and the simple fact is, that ultimately, it does. Despite the occasional (and increasingly rare) underdog story, money talks and the biggest, richest clubs enjoy the most success.

My ultimate point is that United winning the PL or CL is practically impossible, and if Wilder has an ambition to win either competition, his best bet will be elsewhere. I don't think admitting that is defeatist.

Well, unlike you, I am traditionally a pessimist, a glass half empty kind of bloke. For me, what CWACK and this team have achieved is simply phenomenal. I have followed the club since the late 1960s so I have been through the mill, especially all th disappointments. What makes this different is not money, which is important, but the kind of all encompassing effect Wilder has had at the club. It really is unique, and I have posted twice on different threads, that Wilder is not only unique himself, but he is building a unique formula for club management and progress.
Every big club had to start somewhere, and why would Blades be any different?
I take your point about other Euro leagues having just a few dominant sides, but the PL is just not like that any more. The Arsenal, Spurs Man United wheels are coming off because they have got cash fat and, subsequently lazy. They believe that money is the answer to all that ails them.
We have a completely different approach, and a more honest, sustainable future.
I now believe that, given time, we can beat them all at their own game.
As I said I’m a pessimist by nature, but this journey promises to be a special one.

The final sentence of my previous post stands as the key to Wilders future.

 

[Stebop]

I guess it's a case of how much you buy into the idea that we're already a big club now, or at least a big club in waiting, that influences opinions on this subject.

As you may have guessed, I already consider us a big club and like others in this thread, it's starting to grate how lots of neutrals view us as some plucky little provincial outfit who should just be enjoying their big day out. Don't get me wrong - I am enjoying it - but all it's illustrated to me is that we should've been doing this consistently for the last 20 years. We're not out of place, we're exactly where we should be given how things stand.

The world, and football, moves incredibly quickly of course. Robinho signing for Man City came as a shock in the 2008-09 season. They won the league in 2011-12. Leicester managed to avoid relegation in 2014-15, then win the league the season after.

I think we're generally so level-headed and self-deprecating as fans - and long may that continue in spite of any extended periods of success - that we're struggling to see either of the above examples happening to us. But why not?

We've got so much going for us right now it's frightening!

 

[Kanye]

Well, unlike you, I am traditionally a pessimist, a glass half empty kind of bloke. For me, what CWACK and this team have achieved is simply phenomenal. I have followed the club since the late 1960s so I have been through the mill, especially all th disappointments. What makes this different is not money, which is important, but the kind of all encompassing effect Wilder has had at the club. It really is unique, and I have posted twice on different threads, that Wilder is not only unique himself, but he is building a unique formula for club management and progress.
Every big club had to start somewhere, and why would Blades be any different?
I take your point about other Euro leagues having just a few dominant sides, but the PL is just not like that any more. The Arsenal, Spurs Man United wheels are coming off because they have got cash fat and, subsequently lazy. They believe that money is the answer to all that ails them.
We have a completely different approach, and a more honest, sustainable future.
I now believe that, given time, we can beat them all at their own game.
As I said I’m a pessimist by nature, but this journey promises to be a special one.

The final sentence of my previous post stands as the key to Wilders future.

I completely get what you're saying: I agree with a lot of it; I agree that Wilder has a unique formula, I agree that we're in for a special journey too.

The whole every "big club" has to start somewhere thing though - it doesn't work like that anymore: the elite clubs have cemented their place within the football hierarchy, and have closed the door behind them.

And you said the "PL is just not like that anymore" - I beg to differ. Don't be fooled by Arsenal, Tottenham and Man Utd floundering: Liverpool are 25 points clear. Real competition, where any team can win the league, doesn't exist anymore. There were only 2 teams remotely likely to win the league this year, both are part of the super-rich elite.

Just look at the Deloitte League if you don't believe me, and spot the alarming trend: the only teams that look likely to win the big competitions like the PL or CL are the rich ones. Here's the top 11:

1	Barcelona	840.8	Spain	2	+1
2	Real Madrid	757.3	Spain	1	-1
3	Manchester United	711.5	England	3	—
4	Bayern Munich	660.1	Germany	4	—
5	Paris Saint‑Germain	635.9	France	6	+1
6	Manchester City	610.6	England	5	-1
7	Liverpool	604.7	England	7	—
8	Tottenham Hotspur	521.1	England	10	+2
9	Chelsea	513.1	England	8	-1
10	Juventus	459.7	Italy	10	+1
11	Arsenal	445.6	England	9	-2

For context: The best income outside the top 6 is about €210m. Ours will likely be somewhere between €120-160, based on similar teams.

Even teams in that list, like Tottenham, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea don't look in any danger of challenging for the top titles in the foreseeable future either. They may be "cash-fat" or "lazy" but the nature of the disparity means they can afford to be poorly managed and still be light-years ahead of us in terms of finances. If we finish above Man Utd, they could effectively afford to buy our entire squad and poach every staff member.

There lies the problem for any club looking to break into that closed shop. We're never going to match the commercial or matchday income of those teams - sure we can improve it, but you'd be mad to think that we could rival any of the listed teams above in terms of those revenues.
The only way to even get close, is to consistently qualify for European competitions, putting you on a level playing field in terms of broadcast income. The trouble is teams are picked apart, and coaches are poached.

In short, and in my opinion, there is zero chance of us winning a PL title or the CL, just like 99.99% of all the other clubs - I don't understand why that seems to be a controversial opinion either.

And on to your last point: essentially that Wilder is the manager, and has complete control: who else would offer him that?
It's a decent point, and it will possibly stop him from leaving to be a "head coach" elsewhere, but it's not enough to keep him forever if he's the manager we all think he is. If he can consistently qualify for Europe and even win a domestic trophy with us, he will have plenty of suitors, one of which will give him the responsibilities he feels he needs. Some (like Man Utd) don't even have a sporting director anyway.

 

[BarcaBlade]

He has then moved the club along evolutionary step by step.

Big fuck off steps.

 

[mancunianblade]

Fergie recommended Moyes and Ole.... he might be sidelined in the next round of decision making,

Its Poch for that job,

Ironically whilst we will hopefully benefit for Cities plight, its now rumoured that Pep will leave and Potch is tipped for that job. leaving Man Utd without a manager

 

[Kanye]

The world, and football, moves incredibly quickly of course. Robinho signing for Man City came as a shock in the 2008-09 season. They won the league in 2011-12. Leicester managed to avoid relegation in 2014-15, then win the league the season after.

...we're struggling to see either of the above examples happening to us. But why not?

Why United wont be signing a player like Robinho?

When Man City bought Robinho, they paid €43m, it was the most expensive transfer that season and would be equivalent to well in excess of €130m in today's money.
Thanks to FFP, even if we had that kind of money to spend on one player (we don't), we wouldn't be allowed to. Once financial fair play was introduced, it lifted the ladder behind the super-rich, ensuring clubs like Chelsea, Man City and PSG could no longer buy there way into that top tier.

Why United won't be winning the title like Leicester?

Never say never, but at the same time, don't hold your breath either. There's a good reason why people got such good odds on LCFC winning the league.
Leicester's points tally this season isn't far off the tally they amassed in the title winning season, which goes to show that even if they play out their skin, and reach their peak, it only takes one of the rich elite to have their shit together to ensure that there are no more miracles.

 

[Charlieblade]

I completely get what you're saying: I agree with a lot of it; I agree that Wilder has a unique formula, I agree that we're in for a special journey too.

The whole every "big club" has to start somewhere thing though - it doesn't work like that anymore: the elite clubs have cemented their place within the football hierarchy, and have closed the door behind them.

And you said the "PL is just not like that anymore" - I beg to differ. Don't be fooled by Arsenal, Tottenham and Man Utd floundering: Liverpool are 25 points clear. Real competition, where any team can win the league, doesn't exist anymore. There were only 2 teams remotely likely to win the league this year, both are part of the super-rich elite.

Just look at the Deloitte League if you don't believe me, and spot the alarming trend: the only teams that look likely to win the big competitions like the PL or CL are the rich ones. Here's the top 11:

1	Barcelona	840.8	Spain	2	+1
2	Real Madrid	757.3	Spain	1	-1
3	Manchester United	711.5	England	3	—
4	Bayern Munich	660.1	Germany	4	—
5	Paris Saint‑Germain	635.9	France	6	+1
6	Manchester City	610.6	England	5	-1
7	Liverpool	604.7	England	7	—
8	Tottenham Hotspur	521.1	England	10	+2
9	Chelsea	513.1	England	8	-1
10	Juventus	459.7	Italy	10	+1
11	Arsenal	445.6	England	9	-2

For context: The best income outside the top 6 is about €210m. Ours will likely be somewhere between €120-160, based on similar teams.

Even teams in that list, like Tottenham, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea don't look in any danger of challenging for the top titles in the foreseeable future either. They may be "cash-fat" or "lazy" but the nature of the disparity means they can afford to be poorly managed and still be light-years ahead of us in terms of finances. If we finish above Man Utd, they could effectively afford to buy our entire squad and poach every staff member.

There lies the problem for any club looking to break into that closed shop. We're never going to match the commercial or matchday income of those teams - sure we can improve it, but you'd be mad to think that we could rival any of the listed teams above in terms of those revenues.
The only way to even get close, is to consistently qualify for European competitions, putting you on a level playing field in terms of broadcast income. The trouble is teams are picked apart, and coaches are poached.

In short, and in my opinion, there is zero chance of us winning a PL title or the CL, just like 99.99% of all the other clubs - I don't understand why that seems to be a controversial opinion either.

And on to your last point: essentially that Wilder is the manager, and has complete control: who else would offer him that?
It's a decent point, and it will possibly stop him from leaving to be a "head coach" elsewhere, but it's not enough to keep him forever if he's the manager we all think he is. If he can consistently qualify for Europe and even win a domestic trophy with us, he will have plenty of suitors, one of which will give him the responsibilities he feels he needs. Some (like Man Utd) don't even have a sporting director anyway.

Some very good points there, but my foolish hopes and desires remain undiminished. I have to believe that The Wider Opportunity is a unique one.
Were Liverpool a top six club before Bill Shankly got hold of them? Man City were a very average side before Joe Mercer and Malcom Alison got hold of them? Notts Forest were a no mark club before Clough and Taylor moved in.
I agree the financial conditions are dramatically different now, but If Leicester have proved one thing, it is that it’s now possible for a well managed, average side to break the top six strangle hold. You can attribute that to Pearson or Ranieri, and Rogers is now lifting them again.
As a confirmed pessimist, I am genuinely excited by a long term, sustainable future for our club, led by a no nonsense northerner who has ideas about football, and the way he sees it being played.
As far as I am concerned, Wilder running everything his way, is the future for Sheffield United. My club is in good hands. He will be the first to admit, there is a long way to go, and he still has much to learn. To achieve what he has so far, is only the beginning.

 

[BushBlade]

Some very good points there, but my foolish hopes and desires remain undiminished. I have to believe that The Wider Opportunity is a unique one.
Were Liverpool a top six club before Bill Shankly got hold of them? Man City were a very average side before Joe Mercer and Malcom Alison got hold of them? Notts Forest were a no mark club before Clough and Taylor moved in.
I agree the financial conditions are dramatically different now, but If Leicester have proved one thing, it is that it’s now possible for a well managed, average side to break the top six strangle hold. You can attribute that to Pearson or Ranieri, and Rogers is now lifting them again.
As a confirmed pessimist, I am genuinely excited by a long term, sustainable future for our club, led by a no nonsense northerner who has ideas about football, and the way he sees it being played.
As far as I am concerned, Wilder running everything his way, is the future for Sheffield United. My club is in good hands. He will be the first to admit, there is a long way to go, and he still has much to learn. To achieve what he has so far, is only the beginning.

There wasn’t really a ‘top six’ until the abolition of the maximum wage but Liverpool had won the league five times before Shankly took over.

As for Leicester, I’m not sure one club breaking the mould in thirty odd years is much proof of anything. People sometimes survive jumping from a plane when their parachute fails but no one would actually jump without a parachute on that basis.

You have to look at the reasons why Liverpool became dominant and why Man U subsequently did. The management played a big part but so did other factors such as the abolition of the maximum wage, the introduction of European football and the televisation of the game, in Liverpool’s case or the formation of the PL and the changes to the European Cup in Man U’s case.
They were in a position to capitalise on these changes and by doing so were able to sustain their period of success for many years, whilst the rest played catch up.

In five or so years (if I’m still alive) I suspect I’ll be reading posts about how ‘we had our chance and blew it’ and replying that we never had much of a chance in the first place, it was just people getting carried away, that we were never likely to be playing in the CL every season in a 60k capacity BL.

 

[Charlieblade]

There wasn’t really a ‘top six’ until the abolition of the maximum wage but Liverpool had won the league five times before Shankly took over.

As for Leicester, I’m not sure one club breaking the mould in thirty odd years is much proof of anything. People sometimes survive jumping from a plane when their parachute fails but no one would actually jump without a parachute on that basis.

You have to look at the reasons why Liverpool became dominant and why Man U subsequently did. The management played a big part but so did other factors such as the abolition of the maximum wage, the introduction of European football and the televisation of the game, in Liverpool’s case or the formation of the PL and the changes to the European Cup in Man U’s case.
They were in a position to capitalise on these changes and by doing so were able to sustain their period of success for many years, whilst the rest played catch up.

In five or so years (if I’m still alive) I suspect I’ll be reading posts about how ‘we had our chance and blew it’ and replying that we never had much of a chance in the first place, it was just people getting carried away, that we were never likely to be playing in the CL every season in a 60k capacity BL.

Accepted and admitted. Unfortunately my memory starts when Spurs won the double and Liverpool were in the old second division. I’m not a historian.
I was just reading the BL improvements thread, and I agree with Kanye, and probably you. The income is now based on Sky, sponsorship and corporate income, not us poor old fans.
If our recent wage spending is right, it will need to be addressed. Despite my rudimentary maths, the Prince seems to be speculating beyond our potential income. Wages aside, I don’t see the massive cash incomes making us a top six financial heavyweight for several years, so how is it happening?
Wider is the only common denominator and the Prince has managed to back him financially. How else do we make outrageous player purchases in January?
For the right, or wrong reasons, we are starting to move forward under the current regime. I welcome it, and I really believe it can be something very special in my (limited) time.
Wilders extraordinary talent and present circumstances make all the difference for me.

 

[BushBlade]

Accepted and admitted. Unfortunately my memory starts when Spurs won the double and Liverpool were in the old second division. I’m not a historian.
I was just reading the BL improvements thread, and I agree with Kanye, and probably you. The income is now based on Sky, sponsorship and corporate income, not us poor old fans.
If our recent wage spending is right, it will need to be addressed. Despite my rudimentary maths, the Prince seems to be speculating beyond our potential income. Wages aside, I don’t see the massive cash incomes making us a top six financial heavyweight for several years, so how is it happening?
Wider is the only common denominator and the Prince has managed to back him financially. How else do we make outrageous player purchases in January?
For the right, or wrong reasons, we are starting to move forward under the current regime. I welcome it, and I really believe it can be something very special in my (limited) time.
Wilders extraordinary talent and present circumstances make all the difference for me.

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, what we’ve done is amazing and Wilder has a habit of succeeding where others have failed, it wouldn’t be surprising if he took us further and we got some kind of success, a cup or a good run in Europe but becoming a regular top four club is a massive ask, even for the miracle worker that is Wilder.
I’d hate it if we somehow felt disappointed at the end of what has been an immense season.

 

[Stebop]

Why United wont be signing a player like Robinho?

When Man City bought Robinho, they paid €43m, it was the most expensive transfer that season and would be equivalent to well in excess of €130m in today's money.
Thanks to FFP, even if we had that kind of money to spend on one player (we don't), we wouldn't be allowed to. Once financial fair play was introduced, it lifted the ladder behind the super-rich, ensuring clubs like Chelsea, Man City and PSG could no longer buy there way into that top tier.

Why United won't be winning the title like Leicester?

Never say never, but at the same time, don't hold your breath either. There's a good reason why people got such good odds on LCFC winning the league.
Leicester's points tally this season isn't far off the tally they amassed in the title winning season, which goes to show that even if they play out their skin, and reach their peak, it only takes one of the rich elite to have their shit together to ensure that there are no more miracles.

Robinho wasn't even that good though was he? My point was that they signed a player that was considered to be beyond their reach - not just financially, but in terms of who'd play for them. It knocked down another barrier of what it takes to be considered a big club, and paved the way for other signings that may not have found them an attractive proposition before. We've just managed to do the same for £22m, so I don't think we need to be shelling out €130m to achieve a similar sort of result.

With regards Leicester winning the title and how it can't happen again due to the elite closing ranks, I don't see it like that at all. If I had to distill the core reasons why Leicester won the league that season, it was firstly from the clever acquisition of three world-class players who were practically unknown amongst the wider footballing world. Vardy, Kante and Mahrez signed for less than £10 million combined. They were the icing on the cake of an otherwise solid team with a great ethic and an established way of playing to their strengths (that sounds quite familiar )

I feel like Liverpool - and to a large extent United - have stuck a marker in the ground this season for what it ultimately takes to outperform all expectations and your peers. It's not just about having the best players, it's about work rate, commitment, tactical nous and identity. These things can't be bought, they need to be cultivated and our manager is at the forefront of this ethos.

 

[Charlieblade]

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, what we’ve done is amazing and Wilder has a habit of succeeding where others have failed, it wouldn’t be surprising if he took us further and we got some kind of success, a cup or a good run in Europe but becoming a regular top four club is a massive ask, even for the miracle worker that is Wilder.
I’d hate it if we somehow felt disappointed at the end of what has been an immense season.

You only have to look back to our second season in the championship. Flattered to deceive back then, because Wilder was still learning, and doing it on a shoestring. Give the lad a chance is all I can say.

 

[blade53]

Why would he want to move to any other club apart from financial reasons? He is living the dream at the Lane , taking the club he loves to new levels. He is adored by the fans and players alike , and we are a club on the up and up. Wilder's work is based on having a tight knit group of players , of a certain character , who have all bought into the club and what it's all about, and it works so very well. How could this work at Arsenal , Man Utd ,Chelsea, etc with all their overseas mercenary superstars? Stay where you are Chris , you are already a legend , but will go down one day as the best Blades manager ever.

 

[Kanye]

Some very good points there, but my foolish hopes and desires remain undiminished. I have to believe that The Wider Opportunity is a unique one

I agree that Wilder is unique, I guess my argument would depend on exactly what you're hopes and desires were; if it's the PL or CL titles, I think that's misguided.

Were Liverpool a top six club before Bill Shankly got hold of them? Man City were a very average side before Joe Mercer and Malcom Alison got hold of them? Notts Forest were a no mark club before Clough and Taylor moved in.
I agree the financial conditions are dramatically different now, but If Leicester have proved one thing, it is that it’s now possible for a well managed, average side to break the top six strangle hold. You can attribute that to Pearson or Ranieri, and Rogers is now lifting them again.
As a confirmed pessimist, I am genuinely excited by a long term, sustainable future for our club, led by a no nonsense northerner who has ideas about football, and the way he sees it being played.
As far as I am concerned, Wilder running everything his way, is the future for Sheffield United. My club is in good hands. He will be the first to admit, there is a long way to go, and he still has much to learn. To achieve what he has so far, is only the beginning.

The financial conditions are indeed drastically different, as I've probabaly done to death on this thread. In terms of the Forrest example, I don't think it would be remotely possible for a team to win the Champions League twice after being in the championship 3 seasons prior.

Leicester's problem will be similar to ours, should we qualify for the Europa League or even the Champions League: replicating it. How many consecutive European finishes could either club manage before their best players or manager was poached? Neither us or Leicester would be able to keep hold of a world class player for long, nor a world class manager.

 

[Kanye]

Robinho wasn't even that good though was he? My point was that they signed a player that was considered to be beyond their reach - not just financially, but in terms of who'd play for them. It knocked down another barrier of what it takes to be considered a big club, and paved the way for other signings that may not have found them an attractive proposition before. We've just managed to do the same for £22m, so I don't think we need to be shelling out €130m to achieve a similar sort of result.

I see what you're saying between the symbolic similarities between the Robinho and Berge signings - that makes sense.

With regards Leicester winning the title and how it can't happen again due to the elite closing ranks, I don't see it like that at all. If I had to distill the core reasons why Leicester won the league that season, it was firstly from the clever acquisition of three world-class players who were practically unknown amongst the wider footballing world. Vardy, Kante and Mahrez signed for less than £10 million combined. They were the icing on the cake of an otherwise solid team with a great ethic and an established way of playing to their strengths (that sounds quite familiar )

There are so many different reasons behind Leicester winning the title. In addition to the solid base and the 3 world class players, they can also be thankful they never had significant injury problems and that the expected title challengers all massively underperformed.

The point being that the stars need to align: How likely is it that 3 world class players all blossom in the same season? How likely is it that they all stay fit, all season? How likely is it that there isn't an elite club with their shit together (Liverpool this season, Man City the previous 2, etc.)

I personally can't see it happening again for a very long time.

 

[Kanye]

Why would he want to move to any other club apart from financial reasons?

Professional reasons.

 

[Stebop]

I see what you're saying between the symbolic similarities between the Robinho and Berge signings - that makes sense.




There are so many different reasons behind Leicester winning the title. In addition to the solid base and the 3 world class players, they can also be thankful they never had significant injury problems and that the expected title challengers all massively underperformed.

The point being that the stars need to align: How likely is it that 3 world class players all blossom in the same season? How likely is it that they all stay fit, all season? How likely is it that there isn't an elite club with their shit together (Liverpool this season, Man City the previous 2, etc.)

I personally can't see it happening again for a very long time.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying and would agree that it's probably not very likely when you weigh everything up. By the same token, it wasn't very likely we'd get 100 points in his first season, and it wasn't very likely we'd be competing near the top for so long in his second, let alone going up the season after. This season, it wasn't very likely we'd be in with a realistic chance of Europe with 12 to go, so I'm not sure how far we can apply likely to Wilder and what we're experiencing.

If United don't win a cup or another league title in my own lifetime, I have absolutely no problem with that. Any success we achieve is a nice little bonus in my eyes, I've loved the ride since I first started going in 89 and wouldn't swap us for anybody.

The fact that I'm even contemplating winning something is enough for me right now. It's a first in my 31 years following us to be honest, but it does feel more than possible with Wilder and co running the show

 

[Charlieblade]

I agree that Wilder is unique, I guess my argument would depend on exactly what you're hopes and desires were; if it's the PL or CL titles, I think that's misguided.



The financial conditions are indeed drastically different, as I've probabaly done to death on this thread. In terms of the Forrest example, I don't think it would be remotely possible for a team to win the Champions League twice after being in the championship 3 seasons prior.

Leicester's problem will be similar to ours, should we qualify for the Europa League or even the Champions League: replicating it. How many consecutive European finishes could either club manage before their best players or manager was poached? Neither us or Leicester would be able to keep hold of a world class player for long, nor a world class manager.

THUMP. That’s the sound of me coming down to earth, battered by Kanye and his realism and logic.
In my defence, I see Wilder as the one to bring the top six clubs down to earth with a bump. His reality, common sense and logical approach to the problem, is already turning the tables on other, more established sides. The fact that he has done it with what is essentially, a bunch of journeymen professionals makes it more remarkable. Players who may have been top championship individuals, are now part of a Team that is respected, and even feared, by top EPL sides.
Berge is a smart lad, who knows how talented he can become under Wilders direction. I’m still convinced he is the first of many. Players can still make a very good living at United, without the obscene wages being paid by Billy big bollox clubs.
Wilder loves football, and players love him and his approach to the game.
Our wages policy will be re-written and adapted for next season, without selling the club down the river.
Duffy and Lundstram are excellent examples of what can happen to a player who gets big ideas above his station. Both talented, but they have forgotten that their talent depends largely on the team being more important than the individual. It’s another reason that Wilder won’t go anywhere else.
The top clubs are happy to pay big transfer fees and silly wages for individuals who probably don’t fit in at clubs like ours anyway. To them, money is more important than the simple joy of playing the game as part of a great team, and really enjoying going in to work every day.
Wilder is the difference.

 

[Charlieblade]

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, what we’ve done is amazing and Wilder has a habit of succeeding where others have failed, it wouldn’t be surprising if he took us further and we got some kind of success, a cup or a good run in Europe but becoming a regular top four club is a massive ask, even for the miracle worker that is Wilder.
I’d hate it if we somehow felt disappointed at the end of what has been an immense season.

In August last year, I predicted a top ten finish, so I wouldn’t be disappointed if we finished tenth at the end of the season. The fact that Wilder keeps moving the club forward and a future plan is now self evident, just means that we can, quite reasonably expect more. It won’t be easy by any means, but I’m more optimistic now than at any time in the past

 

[Stebop]

In August last year, I predicted a top ten finish, so I wouldn’t be disappointed if we finished tenth at the end of the season. The fact that Wilder keeps moving the club forward and a future plan is now self evident, just means that we can, quite reasonably expect more. It won’t be easy by any means, but I’m more optimistic now than at any time in the past

100% in agreement Charlieblade - I think we've spent a large part of this season acclimatizing to the league, and in the case of new signings like Oli McB, to the system. It's hard not to expect more next season when we've watched how they've all grown into this one! I'm personally expecting McB to be brilliant next season, he's seriously impressed me in this one.

I predicted 14th on the basis we'd have more fight than at least 6 of the other clubs, even if our players weren't technically as good at Premier level. Of course it turns out that our players are also technically better than most in the league. When we kickoff at the start of next season, they'll know they can more than hold their own. The mystique has gone and we're plenty good enough.

 

[HammerInPeace]

As for Leicester, I’m not sure one club breaking the mould in thirty odd years is much proof of anything. People sometimes survive jumping from a plane when their parachute fails but no one would actually jump without a parachute on that basis.

The stars were truly aligned for them, that season. ALL of the 'big' clubs were, well, 'transitioning' at the same time, if that's the right word to use these days..
Combined with Leicester chancing upon some really world class players like Kante & Mahrez & Vardy knocking 'em in for fun. A great team, all round.
Imo, it was a freak season, although it has to be said that Leicester are currently having a good season.
It's one thing achieving success; it's quite another thing, staying successful.

 

[Charlieblade]

The stars were truly aligned for them, that season. ALL of the 'big' clubs were, well, 'transitioning' at the same time, if that's the right word to use these days..
Combined with Leicester chancing upon some really world class players like Kante & Mahrez & Vardy knocking 'em in for fun. A great team, all round.
Imo, it was a freak season, although it has to be said that Leicester are currently having a good season.
It's one thing achieving success; it's quite another thing, staying successful.

Given the so called top clubs obsession with foreign players and managers, regardless of any incoming purchases having the right attitude, or team ethos, they still believe they have the clout financially to get away with ridiculous sums, spent on the likes of Paul Pogba and his agent.
Wider is turning that notion on its head. Common sense, language harmony and financial prudence is working just fine for us.
Sander Berge is a prime example of what can be achieved with a little forthought and planning. The common denominator with all the recent foreign purchases, is English speaking, with great football potential.
Wilder and his football style is now The Blades USP.