For all those pointing to the “rules” of VAR...

[A Storm of Blades]

Play to the whistle Is the percieved wisdom

But the assistant referee was adamant it was offside and stood still with his flag so we stopped the referee waving Shelby on
With only token shrug from Henderson.
Linos were told not to flag unless 100 per cent sure. He stopped we stopped.

This should have been stopped by the ref and restarted with a drop ball

In the scheme of things it made no difference as we deserved to lose. But this can't be allowed to be such a monumental fuck up

I haven’t read all this thread, but the way I see it, if the linesman puts his flag up the ref must blow his whistle and its offside, because the linesman’s certain. If it turns out to be a wrong call, everyone says sorry and the linesman finds himself in the Conference.

Stuart Attwell didn't hesitate to blow for any other single offside decision made by his assistants throughout the entirety of the game. So how does he decide which decision to support and which to overrule?

I know the official directive to linesman was that when VAR is available they should not flag for offsides unless they are clear and obvious. I honestly think Shelvey thought he was offside but carried on just to waste some time and take the piss.

It’s probably a moot point anyway, because we wouldn’t have scored an equaliser, even if we’d still been playing now

Precisely. It’s the inconsistency, the linesman was wrong, but he flagged therefore the ref should have blown the whistle, as he did for every other offside.

 

[ATL Recs]

Play to the whistle Is the percieved wisdom

But the assistant referee was adamant it was offside and stood still with his flag so we stopped the referee waving Shelby on
With only token shrug from Henderson.
Linos were told not to flag unless 100 per cent sure. He stopped we stopped.

This should have been stopped by the ref and restarted with a drop ball

In the scheme of things it made no difference as we deserved to lose. But this can't be allowed to be such a monumental fuck up

I would argue that the second goal had a massive impact on our approach to a gams we were still in basically looked like our players heads went down at that point

 

[Rollerball]

At one point we had two players apparently pulled down in their box, yet VAR wasn't consulted, linesman flags for offside, all stop except shelvey including hendo, var says goal, how can this be allowed?

 

[Varkanoid]

Yeah I wouldnt mind seeing that again when those two went down in the box it was either very theatrical or genuine fowls. Never mind they had their hands all over Sharpe everytime even just before he got the yellow card. However Sky higlights I just watched dont show it.

 

[SittingontheBall]

Yeah I wouldnt mind seeing that again when those two went down in the box it was either very theatrical or genuine fowls. Never mind they had their hands all over Sharpe everytime even just before he got the yellow card. However Sky higlights I just watched dont show it.

Officials were coots all night.

 

[BarcaBlade]

At one point we had two players apparently pulled down in their box, yet VAR wasn't consulted, linesman flags for offside, all stop except shelvey including hendo, var says goal, how can this be allowed?

Didn't they run into each other?

 

[metalblade]

I will just start off by saying VAR has not changed the result of the game last night. We never looked like scoring in the 2nd half but as soon as their player rolled it into the net I knew we were in trouble, not because I knew he was onside I didn't neither did 3000 Geordies who hardly raised a cheer as he did it or any of the other 21 players who all stopped when the linesman raised his flag. Some might question why Henderson only made a half arsed attempt to stop the ball going in well they only have to look back to Sunday a Wolves player miles offside runs through collides with Hendo and VAR does all it can to try to justify giving a spot kick, would you rush out to dive at the forwards feet risking a red card if you miss the ball? It is quite simple the Lino got it wrong but he put the flag up and the game should be stopped, I actually thought the ref was going to book the Newcastle player for time wasting at first.
I can't blame any one of the thousands who left soon after that VAR is killing the game give me match officials who do sometimes get it wrong any day over this shambles which in some cases is technically correct but does nothing at all for the spirit of how the game should be played. I thought initially VAR would even things up in the Premier League but far from it, we can all see now that it is being used to keep established Premier League teams well ......................... established. It just feels like every VAR decision so far this season has gone against us, three at least have cost us points.

 

[BettingBlade]

That’s the problem, the on field refs haven’t seen a replay so can only follow the advice of VAR.

As for the accuracy of the offside technology, every club is judged to the same standards so it’s fair. Yes it’s frustrating when you get a close one go against you, but that’s football, no doubt one will go for us this season.

It won’t. The technology is just as biased towards the big clubs as the refs were. You’re telling me that VAR is going to overturn a penalty decision for Man U in the last minute at Old Trafford? Do me a favour, it stinks. It’s not making the game fairer at all.

 

[Swannyblade]

That’s not what the VAR directive says, I’m afraid. It doesn’t matter whether the Lino flags or not, the ref is required to let play continue until the goal scoring opportunity has passed.

But he didn’t always follow that course of action in the game. Either play all advantages, or not at all - it’s the only way to avoid confusion!

 

[cooperblade]

Credit to Shelvey for playing to the whistle, but he didn't celebrate like he'd just scored a goal and neither did the Newcastle fans. They all expected it to be chalked off.

Shelvey didn't play to the whistle, he played to the ref stood behind him shouting 'play on'.

I just can't see how the referee felt that, on that decision, he was better placed than the linesman to make the call. Usually refs only overrule linesmen when they've seen the ball has come off an opponent or a player who the linesman thought had touched it hadn't. It's incredibly rare for a ref to overrule a linesman on a run of the mill offside, isn't it?

The cynical side of me thinks that Atwell has been thinking of doing something like this all season and this was his perfect opportunity.

 

[Swannyblade]

This.

Also, Shelvey was clean through on goal, flag or not. None of our defenders were close to him. And looking back, he takes the chance far more seriously than I remembered and celebrates by tapping his head like he was still switched on
Watch here:

Moot point - Hendo’s saved plenty of one on ones and he’d stopped playing. Sack off linesmen flagging and remove the element of doubt...or even better, sack off VAR

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

That’s not what the VAR directive says, I’m afraid. It doesn’t matter whether the Lino flags or not, the ref is required to let play continue until the goal scoring opportunity has passed.

So he got one right and ten wrong, guess he's one of the better refs then?

 

[e17blade]

Firstly, by the letter of the law, I think that the decision last night was correct. However...


The very first thing I was taught at my very first law lecture at university was “the first rule of law is common sense”. The point being made was that although it can be possible to take the literal interpretation of the written words of the law to decide whether someone is guilty or not, sometimes you have to take a step back and think about what the law was put in place for. What was the intention of the law. Sometimes the two can be misaligned and common sense should prevail. If legal decisions lack common sense then the law gets rewritten, or a new interpretation of the words gets woven into legal precedent.

Apply this logic to VAR and I think what we are seeing are lots of decisions that are technical correct given the literal definitions of the rules, but lacking in common sense as they do not address the issues that the rules were put in place to resolve.

Last night the linesman put his flag up when he shouldn’t have - that is a fact. Our players should have played on - this is also a fact. What doesn’t make common sense though is expecting the flag going up not to effect a human being - as opposed to a football robot running an algorithm. I don’t think you can ignore the human aspect of this. We are imperfect emotional beings and even a split seconds delay processing information (like the offside flag) can make a huge difference in top level sport.

Applying the offside rule as is being done at the moment also fails the common sense rule. If even after a line is drawn on a pitch you still can’t get everyone to agree on an offside decision, then common sense is being ignored.

I have said since day one that I didn’t want VAR, but accepted that if applied correctly in certain situations it could possibly be useful. Now though I just utterly hate it. It is ruining my enjoyment of the game. I’d rather have a slightly higher incidence of mistakes than go through this every few games.

Rant over!

 

[B.Lade]

As I understand it the direction given in the champions League is not to flag for offside if it's right then to go back and check it. The premier League have deliberately taken the opposite approach of linesmen flagging, play carrying on and then checking once the chance had been taken. So, by the rules the PL have set the ref was entirely correct last night and our players shouldn't have reacted to the flag. That said:

• for no other offsides did he take this approach. Whistle went straight away every other time.
• the application of the rule is just confusing for players and fans alike. The CL approach is much fairer and easier to follow.

I agree with wilder on this. VAR is killing the game and whilst (for the goal) the ref, lino and shelvey were right, the rule itself is a clear example of that.

 

[Bladesman]

I would argue that the second goal had a massive impact on our approach to a gams we were still in basically looked like our players heads went down at that point

Wilder says we lost heart.

 

[Billyblade]

The cynical side of me thinks that Atwell has been thinking of doing something like this all season and this was his perfect opportunity.

I thought I was alone in thinking that Twattwell was absolutely loving it

 

[Karaoke Blade]

I'm really confused now.
The guidance to the linesman is not to flag if any offside is marginal. So, what if the attacking team take advantage of a dubious non-offside decision and then go on to win a corner. Under present VAR I think only goals are reviewed, so presumably the corner would be awarded. The attacking team take the corner then score a goal. Would the dubious offside be then reviewed and the goal chalked off?

 

[broomhillblade]

The lino flagged. The ref indicated 'play on' since he must have thought the lino got it wrong.
The ref should then have had the courage of his convictions and immediately signalled a goal. Instead he left it to VAR to carry the can.

 

[Billyblade]

I'm really confused now.
The guidance to the linesman is not to flag if any offside is marginal. So, what if the attacking team take advantage of a dubious non-offside decision and then go on to win a corner. Under present VAR I think only goals are reviewed, so presumably the corner would be awarded. The attacking team take the corner then score a goal. Would the dubious offside be then reviewed and the goal chalked off?

Only if it was scored by Sheffield United

 

[sitwell]

When I played for Abbeydale school we had a game at Firth Park and no ref. Our Chemistry teacher Mr Poore said he would do it from his Morris Minor as it was pissing it down ,and used his horn as a whistle. It worked Ok until it got to offsides and he had 20 lads round his car arguing. Has the premier league retracted back to those dark days of the mid 70s ,and Stockley Park is a modern day Morris Minor ?
Give us our game back and bulldoze that stupid building on a non descript trading estate in Hayes where our game is being hijacked

 

[Varkanoid]

The lino flagged. The ref indicated 'play on' since he must have thought the lino got it wrong.
The ref should then have had the courage of his convictions and immediately signalled a goal. Instead he left it to VAR to carry the can.

Problem is the ref didnt indicate play on he just put his right hand up as a halt sign to the linesman. Everyone knows play on signal is ref waving both hands forward. He did this after at least 5 seconds running into our half when the defence had no way to recover from their non playing stance and Henderson definitely did not see the ref wave play on or he would have saved the goal.

 

[BushBlade]

It’s annoying and inconsistent and it’s spoiling the game for the people who ultimately finance it. But no one tracked Shelvey’s run. That’s piss poor for us.

 

[SB_90]

morning after its still crap. its arsenal 1998 for me. what overmars & kanu did was correct but not morally right.



this is my final word on it. because its not good to dwell on this much a downer. because as i mentioned before ive seen some crap at united in my 21yrs heath clough adkins weir. losing to bury Stevenage Shrewsbury Fleetwood & in numerous cup semi finals& playoff finals . but id never questioned my football like i did when the 2nd goal went in

 

[mattbianco1]

Here's the official Premier League Protocol:

VAR: Offsides explained

www.premierleague.com

In summary:

• Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is not certain whether the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, the assistant should delay indicating the offence until the phase of play has concluded.
• Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is certain the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, then the assistant should indicate the offence immediately.

In both of these situations the referee should wait to blow the whistle until the immediate phase of play has ended.

So, the linesman was both right and wrong in the same attack

The referee did what he was meant to do.

 

[AWetFlannel]

This.

Also, Shelvey was clean through on goal, flag or not. None of our defenders were close to him. And looking back, he takes the chance far more seriously than I remembered and celebrates by tapping his head like he was still switched on
Watch here:

Compare his first 'celebration' to his second. Don't tell me he thought the first would count, he hesitated himself and didn't take the chance seriously.

 

[BushBlade]

Here's the official Premier League Protocol:

VAR: Offsides explained

www.premierleague.com

In summary:

• Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is not certain whether the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, the assistant should delay indicating the offence until the phase of play has concluded.
• Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is certain the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, then the assistant should indicate the offence immediately.

In both of these situations the referee should wait to blow the whistle until the immediate phase of play has ended.

So, the linesman was both right and wrong in the same attack

The referee did what he was meant to do.

No, he was wrong. He can’t have been certain he was on or off, it was too tight so he should have delayed indicating the offence.

 

[PokerBlade]

The linesman's flag does not and never has stopped play. That's up to the referee.

There have been instances (and when I'm not on my phone I might look for some) where for instance a linesman flags for offside but the ref has a point of view where he can see that the ball was played by a defender and therefore lets play continue.

Granted, 99.99% of the time the ref will blow up, but I'm reminded of the boxing expression "defend yourself at all times".

VAR is shit. I've been against it since it was first thought of. And I get why people are annoyed about the confusion it caused last night. Even then, this one's on us.

Refs cock up all the time and have done long before the new changes so don't rely on them to make the right decision. Play to the whistle. Get your own job right and then you can moan about the ref.