The Prince and cash flow

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Granted, the Moyes appointment would have still probably happened, but the subsequent appointments could have been different if they'd had that much more money: they would have been the richest club in the world by some margin.

I dont know what Man Utd net spend is in comparison to Liverpool's. My point about Liverpool (and City) is that they are wealthy clubs, and their success in terms of trophies (compared to Morcambe's lack of success) is largely down to finacial disparity.

And I dont know if you've misunderstood the point I'm trying to make or I've not been very clear but my last few posts haven't got anything to do with the Prince doing a leveraged buyout. I was just responding to a comment that Man Utd's problems stemmed from losing Ferguson, rather than being anything to do with the Glazers (post 66). I'm just trying to make the point that, while there are many factors in Man Utd's fall from the top, the £800m spent on interest is a significant one.
I couldn’t find ten years but here’s the last five.
 

I know that, I've already said that the gap can be closed. But while "pigonomics" may not always hold, generally speaking, they do.

Hence w̶h̶y̶ Man City and Liverpool are at the top of the tree, and why Morecambe, the team with the smallest budget in the FL are flirting with relegation into the non-league.



See the above, hopefully this time you won't get lost.
I think it may have been a comment on your grammar
 
Like you say, perfectly normal. I doubt there is a large business out there who hasn't done it, irrespective of liquidity.
 
And my point is that Man U have received so much income they’ve still been able to compete financially with the biggest sides and that their problems are more to do with the departures of Fergie and David Gill than the leveraged purchase.

I'm not sure if Fergie and Gill leaving is a bigger factor in their demise or not. I'm simply saying that they would be in a stronger position that they are today, with that £800m.

They have been able to "compete" since Fergie/Gill left, but they have not been able to outspend their competitors, which a team with MUFC's commercial power should be able to.

Using the table you quoted in post 91, in the last 5 years (conveniently since around the time Ferguson left) they have spent (on average) £25m a season less than City. If they had an extra £50m a season, I suspect the gap between the two clubs might not be as big as it is currently.

Don't forget as well that their are other hypothetical implications that could have resulted if they had been able to keep hold of that money. They may have been able to keep hold of C Ronaldo, Mourinho may have got the defenders he wanted and finished 1st, rather than 2nd.



Because this thread is about the Blades and a possible leveraged purchase, when posters start to talk about Man U it gives the impression that what has happened to them will happen to us, the logical extension of that being ‘any leveraged purchase will cause serious decline’ whilst ignoring all the other factors such as replacing managers too frequently and wasting huge amounts of money on players who aren’t good enough.

I know it's about the blades, but is this thread about a possible leveraged buyout? As far as I can tell, there was no mention of LBOs until post 60.

And if the above is in relation to me, I'd like to point out that I havent ignored "all the other factors such as replacing managers too frequently and wasting huge amounts of money on players who aren’t good enough." In fact, I've mentioned other factors numerous times.



That's why I've corrected it for him.
 
Would you like to respond now I've amended my error?

I'd just be repeating myself, but I suppose that's never stopped me before.

I agree in principle that £800m should make one hell of a difference, but there are no guarantees. If it was simply about the money, PSG should be the best side in Europe, but all they can do is dominate their own crap league and get to the occasional Champions League semi.

Both BushBlade and myself are stating that very poor managerial choices have put them where they are, not the fact that £800m was syphoned off by some Yanks.
 
I'd just be repeating myself, but I suppose that's never stopped me before.

I agree in principle that £800m should make one hell of a difference, but there are no guarantees. If it was simply about the money, PSG should be the best side in Europe, but all they can do is dominate their own crap league and get to the occasional Champions League semi.

How much Ligue 1 football do you watch? Come to think of it, how much CL football do you watch? The fact that PSG went from being the 4th best team in the league, and not winning the division for 14 years, to winning it 7 years out of 8 after the QSI takeover perfectly illustrates the difference money can make in football. PSG had never been in any danger of challenging for the CL prior to the takeover, now they regularly make it into the latter stages of the tournament.

Both BushBlade and myself are stating that very poor managerial choices have put them where they are, not the fact that £800m was syphoned off by some Yanks.

I'm not saying they are where they are because "£800m was syphoned off by some Yanks" either. I'm saying they would be in a stronger position with that £800m, rather than without it, regardless of their managerial appointments.
 
How much Ligue 1 football do you watch? Come to think of it, how much CL football do you watch? The fact that PSG went from being the 4th best team in the league, and not winning the division for 14 years, to winning it 7 years out of 8 after the QSI takeover perfectly illustrates the difference money can make in football. PSG had never been in any danger of challenging for the CL prior to the takeover, now they regularly make it into the latter stages of the tournament.

You didn't read what I said.

I said all the Arab billions hasn't made them the best side in Europe. Spurs have made the latter stages too, but relatively speaking they spend bugger all but please feel free to lecture me on Ligue 1 again.

I agree the money can make a big difference, but the WAY it is spent (and by whom), is far more important than the amount of money.
 
I'm not sure if Fergie and Gill leaving is a bigger factor in their demise or not. I'm simply saying that they would be in a stronger position that they are today, with that £800m.

They have been able to "compete" since Fergie/Gill left, but they have not been able to outspend their competitors, which a team with MUFC's commercial power should be able to.

Using the table you quoted in post 91, in the last 5 years (conveniently since around the time Ferguson left) they have spent (on average) £25m a season less than City. If they had an extra £50m a season, I suspect the gap between the two clubs might not be as big as it is currently.

Don't forget as well that their are other hypothetical implications that could have resulted if they had been able to keep hold of that money. They may have been able to keep hold of C Ronaldo, Mourinho may have got the defenders he wanted and finished 1st, rather than 2nd.





I know it's about the blades, but is this thread about a possible leveraged buyout? As far as I can tell, there was no mention of LBOs until post 60.

And if the above is in relation to me, I'd like to point out that I havent ignored "all the other factors such as replacing managers too frequently and wasting huge amounts of money on players who aren’t good enough." In fact, I've mentioned other factors numerous times.




That's why I've corrected it for him.
Post 4. Is the Prince borrowing the money to pay for his shares? I’ve seen versions of this thread before. ;)

I’m not having a go at you. I’m just wary that this talk of Man U becomes another stick to beat the owner with and support Kev’s assertion that he’s not fit to run the club.
 
You didn't read what I said.

I said all the Arab billions hasn't made them the best side in Europe. Spurs have made the latter stages too, but relatively speaking they spend bugger all but please feel free to lecture me on Ligue 1 again.

If I didn't read what you said, that would make 2 of us:

This is not an argument about whether or not spending vast amounts of money will make you the best team in Europe.
You're original reply was about pigonomics (the theory that more money buys better players, and better players mean a better team.) - PSG are the perfect example of that theory in action, as I just pointed out.

And I'm sorry if you feel I'm lecturing you about Ligue 1, but you started the condescension by correcting my grammar. The reason I asked if you watched Ligue 1 is because you stated that it's a crap league, when in actual fact I'd argue confidently that it's comfortably one of the top 5 leagues in the world.

I agree the money can make a big difference, but the WAY it is spent (and by whom), is far more important than the amount of money.

If the way money is spent, rather than the amount that it spent is the bigger factor in success, then why is it that Accrington Stanley will never compete with Man City for the league title?

Based on their budget you could argue AC spend their money in the most prudent way possible: they had the joint lowest budget in the football league last year, yet still managed to get promoted into L1 and are on course to stay up. However, spending money in the right way will only get them so far.
 
Post 4. Is the Prince borrowing the money to pay for his shares? I’ve seen versions of this thread before. ;)

I’m not having a go at you. I’m just wary that this talk of Man U becomes another stick to beat the owner with and support Kev’s assertion that he’s not fit to run the club.

Apologies mate, didn't notice post 4, I stand corrected.

If it's any consolation, it wasn't my intent to use any of my posts as a stick to beat PA with, I just enjoy the discussion.
 
And I'm sorry if you feel I'm lecturing you about Ligue 1, but you started the condescension by correcting my grammar. The reason I asked if you watched Ligue 1 is because you stated that it's a crap league, when in actual fact I'd argue confidently that it's comfortably one of the top 5 leagues in the world.

Fair enough and I take your point. The mangling of our wonderful language with US nonsense such as 'hence why', 'awesome' and 'it was like', boils my piss.

I'll accept Ligue 1 isn't crap, but again you miss my point that despite their mega riches, they aren't succeeding against the better competition in the CL, as the level of spending suggests they should.

It's back to the how you spend it again. Galactico show ponies like Neymar look great at the unveiling press wankfest, but don't always work out.

f the way money is spent, rather than the amount that it spent is the bigger factor in success, then why is it that Accrington Stanley will never compete with Man City for the league title?

Based on their budget you could argue AC spend their money in the most prudent way possible: they had the joint lowest budget in the football league last year, yet still managed to get promoted into L1 and are on course to stay up. However, spending money in the right way will only get them so far.

That's a risible comparison as AS have barely two bob to rub together so of course they won't compete with City, nor has anyone suggested they will.

The Manyoo point is much more relevant as they have a substantial budget anyway, which they have mismanaged. On the basis of how they've wasted the money they have spent, I'd suggest a substantial chunk of an extra £800m would be wasted on agents fees and overblown wages, to buy more Paul Pogbas.

I do however accept the general principle that more money means better players and some success, Wendy aside of course.
 
Fair enough and I take your point. The mangling of our wonderful language with US nonsense such as 'hence why', 'awesome' and 'it was like', boils my piss.

I'll accept Ligue 1 isn't crap, but again you miss my point that despite their mega riches, they aren't succeeding against the better competition in the CL, as the level of spending suggests they should.

It's back to the how you spend it again. Galactico show ponies like Neymar look great at the unveiling press wankfest, but don't always work out.



That's a risible comparison as AS have barely two bob to rub together so of course they won't compete with City, nor has anyone suggested they will.

The Manyoo point is much more relevant as they have a substantial budget anyway, which they have mismanaged. On the basis of how they've wasted the money they have spent, I'd suggest a substantial chunk of an extra £800m would be wasted on agents fees and overblown wages, to buy more Paul Pogbas.

I do however accept the general principle that more money means better players and some success, Wendy aside of course.
Get back to from whence you came.
 

Fair enough and I take your point. The mangling of our wonderful language with US nonsense such as 'hence why', 'awesome' and 'it was like', boils my piss.

I appreciate that, I agree and would never want to butcher our language.
The reason why your correction got my back up a little because it felt like my mistake was used as an excuse to shut down the conversation. I have no formal education beyond my mediocre GCSE results and a vocational college course (no one's fault but my own obviously), which means I do make grammatical mistakes now and again, and I would never want that to exclude me from a discussion about football.

I apologise for my glib question about Ligue 1. Or should I say apologize? 👀

I'll accept Ligue 1 isn't crap, but again you miss my point that despite their mega riches, they aren't succeeding against the better competition in the CL, as the level of spending suggests they should.

It depends what metric you use to indicate success. If winning the champions league is the only way they can be defined as successful, then yes, they've failed. Don't forget though that Rome wasn't built in a day: QSI have only owned PSG for 8 years, in which time they've practically sewn up French football and are beginning to compete for the champions league. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if they won the CL in the next 5 years.

I would also probabaly predict that if they don't win it, then it would most likely be one of the other teams with the biggest budgets; Man City, Barcelona, Real Madrid. You could argue that teams like Juventus, Ajax and Tottenham make better use of their money than the big spenders, but I dont think that will be enough.

That's a risible comparison as AS have barely two bob to rub together so of course they won't compete with City, nor has anyone suggested they will.

I know you haven't suggested they will compete with City, and I know that the comparison is obviously extreme, but I feel it illustrates the point that the amount of money you spend is ultimately more important than the way you spend it.

If Accrington wanted to compete in the PL, they could spend their way there. It might take a while, but if they threw enough money at the project, they would eventually make it.
I don't think there is any scenario where the way they spend money could reap the same results. That to me indicates that the amount of money you spend is unfortunately a bigger factor than the way it is spent.

The Manyoo point is much more relevant as they have a substantial budget anyway, which they have mismanaged. On the basis of how they've wasted the money they have spent, I'd suggest a substantial chunk of an extra £800m would be wasted on agents fees and overblown wages, to buy more Paul Pogbas.

I do however accept the general principle that more money means better players and some success, Wendy aside of course.

I think you're right in a sense that if Man Utd had an extra £800m they would "waste" a substantial amount under the current regime. (I wouldn't classify Pogba as a waste personally, but that's a different discussion.) My point about Man Utd was that, if had they had an extra £800m, they would have still been significantly stronger, even if they'd blown a good chunk.
 
I have to correct one glaring error which has been repeated in the past few pages: PSG do not trouble the latter stages of the Champions League. They reached the quarters four times in a row after the Qatari takeover but have gone out at the first knockout round since 2016/17. The lack of domestic competition means their players aren't able to collectively compete at the very highest level despite individually being among the best in the world.

2018/19: R16 PSG 3-3* Man U (Man U win on away goals)
2017/18: R16 PSG 2-5 Real Madrid
2016/17: R16 PSG 5-6 Barcelona (that comeback from FCB)
2015/16: QF PSG 2-3 Man City
2014/15: QF PSG 1-5 Barcelona
2013/14: QF PSG 3-3* Chelsea (Chelsea win on away goals)
2012/13: QF PSG 3-3* Barcelona (Barca win on away goals)
 
Football Friends........

tumblr_m7dzexcycv1rbon87o1_500.gif
 
I have to correct one glaring error which has been repeated in the past few pages: PSG do not trouble the latter stages of the Champions League. They reached the quarters four times in a row after the Qatari takeover but have gone out at the first knockout round since 2016/17. The lack of domestic competition means their players aren't able to collectively compete at the very highest level despite individually being among the best in the world.

2018/19: R16 PSG 3-3* Man U (Man U win on away goals)
2017/18: R16 PSG 2-5 Real Madrid
2016/17: R16 PSG 5-6 Barcelona (that comeback from FCB)
2015/16: QF PSG 2-3 Man City
2014/15: QF PSG 1-5 Barcelona
2013/14: QF PSG 3-3* Chelsea (Chelsea win on away goals)
2012/13: QF PSG 3-3* Barcelona (Barca win on away goals)


I think it's debatable whether or not it's an error; it's certainly not glaring.

As far as I'm concerned, the latter stages of the competition include anything after the group stages. That nicely spits the competition into the qualifying stages, group stage, latter stages and final.
 
have to correct one glaring error which has been repeated in the past few pages: PSG do not trouble the latter stages of the Champions League. They reached the quarters four times in a row after the Qatari takeover but have gone out at the first knockout round since 2016/17.

Bloody typical.

We'd just kissed and made up and now you come on here saying I was right all along.

No hard feelings Kanye , apology accepted!
 
I have to correct one glaring error which has been repeated in the past few pages: PSG do not trouble the latter stages of the Champions League. They reached the quarters four times in a row after the Qatari takeover but have gone out at the first knockout round since 2016/17. The lack of domestic competition means their players aren't able to collectively compete at the very highest level despite individually being among the best in the world.

2018/19: R16 PSG 3-3* Man U (Man U win on away goals)
2017/18: R16 PSG 2-5 Real Madrid
2016/17: R16 PSG 5-6 Barcelona (that comeback from FCB)
2015/16: QF PSG 2-3 Man City
2014/15: QF PSG 1-5 Barcelona
2013/14: QF PSG 3-3* Chelsea (Chelsea win on away goals)
2012/13: QF PSG 3-3* Barcelona (Barca win on away goals)
Lack of competition may be a contributing factor but it’s starting to sound like an excuse. They’re not Celtic. They’ve spent huge amounts of money, used every form of financial cheating (they make Chancer look like an amateur) and still struggle to make any kind of meaningful impact. They’re spineless.
 
Lack of competition may be a contributing factor but it’s starting to sound like an excuse. They’re not Celtic. They’ve spent huge amounts of money, used every form of financial cheating (they make Chancer look like an amateur) and still struggle to make any kind of meaningful impact. They’re spineless.
They're the polar opposite of a Chris Wilder team. The sum is way less than the total of the parts and whilever they've got fair-weather players like Neymar and a lack of midfield balance they'll be destined to fall apart in Europe.
I think it's debatable whether or not it's an error; it's certainly not glaring.

As far as I'm concerned, the latter stages of the competition include anything after the group stages. That nicely spits the competition into the qualifying stages, group stage, latter stages and final.

Fair enough. I'll disagree with that - latter stages for me is quarters onwards - and the bottom line is that despite spending more than entire top flights in other countries their record is still worse than, say, Ajax or Porto.
 
Lack of competition may be a contributing factor but it’s starting to sound like an excuse. They’re not Celtic. They’ve spent huge amounts of money, used every form of financial cheating (they make Chancer look like an amateur) and still struggle to make any kind of meaningful impact. They’re spineless.

There are obviously a few factors, but ultimately, I think you're right: they are spineless.

One factor is the lack of competition, but I don't think it's that significant. Monaco and OL have had some really good teams in recent years and there's plenty of other teams that will give them a game on their day. It's not like Celtic when Rangers were out the picture, as you mentioned.

Another factor is time and recruitment. You can't build a world class squad over night, especially with the FFP rules. Teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona (despite going through peaks and troughs) have perpetually had world class players in their squad, and have the reputation to continue to attract such players. Man City and PSG both essentially have built from the ground up. Fortunately for them, they both seem to have entrenched themselves at the top table now.

But ultimately, their biggest failing is exactly what you said. They seem to lack the grit and experience of a world class team. The 6-1 capitulation against Barcelona summed that up. Some people think they've lacked leadership, which I would agree with. Thiago Silva is a great player but might perhaps be too hot-headed to be a captain. That's why they signed Buffon, despite already having a fantastic keeper, to add to the dressing room.

They now have a sprinkling of world class players and seem to be adding to that with sensible transfers like Gueye and Navas. It pains me to say it, as their owners are morally bankrupt scum-bags, but I feel the tide is turning for teams like them and City. It's only a matter of time before one of these state-owned behemoths win the CL, in my opinion of course.

Fair enough. I'll disagree with that - latter stages for me is quarters onwards - and the bottom line is that despite spending more than entire top flights in other countries their record is still worse than, say, Ajax or Porto.

Their record is worse than Ajax or Porto in historical terms, but not since the arrival of QSI.

Since the takeover, Porto have only made it out the group stage twice, and haven't bested PSG's achievement of getting to the QF.

Ajax, while they were admittedly fantastic last season, before then, they hadn't even made it to the group stage since 2014. With the exception of last season, the last time they progressed past the groups was in 2005/06, 5 years before the PSG takeover.
 
We spent 50m on players and have probably tripled our wage bill from 18 m to 55m so borrowing till we get another 50m instalment from the prem is prudent
Wednesdays been lucky 100 quid they borrowed for ground improvements from QuikQuid has been written off
 
Last edited:

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Back
Top Bottom