Ground extentions/Renovations

[Sheffsteel]

Dkc,
Agree, that the JS stand looks good with an upper tier.
There’s a logical way of answering your question, the current stand holds just under 7,000.
So a small upper tier with maybe about half the depth of the current stand would be 3,400 or so.
Basically a small upper tier would hold 3,000 to 3,500.
Assume the problem would be that the inner workings, turnstyles, concourse areas, bars, toilets would all need re-designing.
Would imagine it would be quite expensive. Therefore not worth it just for 3K seats.

 

[S64 Blade]

Dkc,
Agree, that the JS stand looks good with an upper tier.
There’s a logical way of answering your question, the current stand holds just under 7,000.
So a small upper tier with maybe about half the depth of the current stand would be 3,400 or so.
Basically a small upper tier would hold 3,000 to 3,500.
Assume the problem would be that the inner workings, turnstyles, concourse areas, bars, toilets would all need re-designing.
Would imagine it would be quite expensive. Therefore not worth it just for 3K seats.

I think the only way to build JSS back would be to do so over the road. It's too narrow to add another tier to. The Bramall Lane end of course suffers from a similar issue.

One possibility that's not been mentioned would be to scrap this idea of a media centre, or whatever it was labelled, between the Kop and South Stand and build a proper corner stand to join the two together That could quite easily add 2/3,000 if it was designed properly. I'm sure it could include corporate facilities at the back of the stand, like on JSS.

 

[s4-blade]

No they’ve just removed some seats for replacement. It looks like they’ve added more because of the protruding wall taking up some of the back row next to the seats which he’s mistakenly thought were new, however if you look at a picture of the stand you’ll notice that’s always been there.

that could be the plan though, removing the wall so he may be half right.

Edit: for some reason Blade207 post that I’ve quoted isn’t showing up

 

[Dkc]

Dkc,

Assume the problem would be that the inner workings, turnstyles, concourse areas, bars, toilets would all need re-designing.
Would imagine it would be quite expensive. Therefore not worth it just for 3K seats.

I'd be interested to hear how easy it would be to do. It could be that smaller second tier wouldn't require any structural alterations, just a major interior fit out. If so it could be done during a close season.

Doubt turnstyles would need a redesign, and people up there could be allowed access to some of the hospitality / bars below, but there would no doubt need to be a concourse at the back with toilets, and possibly bars. A concourse would be a bit cramped up there.

I still reckon that the capacity of the top tier couldn't be more than about 1000, and 6-8 rows are the biggest it can be.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I think the only way to build JSS back would be to do so over the road. It's too narrow to add another tier to. The Bramall Lane end of course suffers from a similar issue.

One possibility that's not been mentioned would be to scrap this idea of a media centre, or whatever it was labelled, between the Kop and South Stand and build a proper corner stand to join the two together That could quite easily add 2/3,000 if it was designed properly. I'm sure it could include corporate facilities at the back of the stand, like on JSS.

A corner bit there might actually reduce capacity because at the moment we have seating on the Kop well past the corner flag, it almost goes behind the South stand, hence some are restricted view. Any curve would maybe give us an extra 1,000 or so seats
but the joining curve would need to start nearer to gangway B so we’d lose the 1000 or so seats.

Also to be fair a media centre built there, frees up more seats at the back of the South stand
And surely there’s a saturation point regards corporate facilities, the current plan is to more than double the current facilities
But some are suggesting even more facilities on the Kop or in the John Street stand. Don’t think we need to treble or quadruple our current facilities.
Also the problem with more corporate facilities is parking, don’t think there’ll be enough space for parking at the Kop end.

 

[WORKSOPBLADE]

JSS cannot be higher due to site line of houses behind it.

 

[S64 Blade]

A corner bit there might actually reduce capacity because at the moment we have seating on the Kop well past the corner flag, it almost goes behind the South stand, hence some are restricted view. Any curve would maybe give us an extra 1,000 or so seats
but the joining curve would need to start nearer to gangway B so we’d lose the 1000 or so seats.

Also to be fair a media centre built there, frees up more seats at the back of the South stand
And surely there’s a saturation point regards corporate facilities, the current plan is to more than double the current facilities
But some are suggesting even more facilities on the Kop or in the John Street stand. Don’t think we need to treble or quadruple our current facilities.
Also the problem with more corporate facilities is parking, don’t think there’ll be enough space for parking at the Kop end.

It only reduces the capacity of the Kop if a full 90 degree angle. A corner could easily be built on from the same rake of as the South Stand (starting about 1/3 of the way up - keep the exits/steps on that side of the Kop beneath) and then running flush to Kop, but elevated. It wouldn't be the typical curve of a corner stand as the difference in rakes on both stands doesn't allow it.

 

[bromtom]

It only reduces the capacity of the Kop if a full 90 degree angle. A corner could easily be built on from the same rake of as the South Stand (starting about 1/3 of the way up - keep the exits/steps on that side of the Kop beneath) and then running flush to Kop, but elevated. It wouldn't be the typical curve of a corner stand as the difference in rakes on both stands doesn't allow it.

Personally, just because of the various issues the Kop creates, any corner development there probably shouldn't be a traditional corner infill, I think we should make an area with good views for disabled supporters, similar to what Burnley are doing with one of their corners.

Put a couple of TV studios above a few platforms for disabled fans, and a scoreboard on top.

 

[Original United]

That's about £81 more than those on John Street would cost

You should be more concerned about those on Leppings Lane

 

[bromtom]

Just had a quick look on Google maps and there are 2 and a half houses directly behind the John Street stand, the rest are businesses.

Few more if you add the corner but I think we'd sooner knock that down and do something different in that corner.

Also they're already massively in shadow and probably get no sun as it is until it's setting, so as long as the stand physically doesn't get in the way of the sun in space, it'll be reyt.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Both stands could be started whilst still in use. The cantilever columns and footings could be done with the minimum of disruption behind the kop this season, then tie it all in next summer.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Can we start with a bar service that means you can actually leave at HT for a pint and get back for the start of the 2nd half. The current catering arrangements are a joke for L1 standard never mind the Premier league.

 

[Topplayersleave]

You should be more concerned about those on Leppings Lane

Aww diddums, has your twisted brain managed to convince you that somebody has said something bad about pweshy weshy United...…….Even though they haven't.

But I get it, anybody that doesn't agree with you and your little mothers meeting is a pig. Don't worry you'll grow out of it, I used to say the same to people when I was 4 years old

 

[Cheets]

i’ve often wondered whether moving the pitch through ninety degrees would work. there’s excess space behind the south stand and the kop whereas space is at a premium behind john street and bramall lane stands.

start construction of new south stand behind present south stand, knock down the south stand. reorient the pitch, continue using three other stands until new south stand is complete.

work around the other sides of the ground replacing old stands with new one at a time. revenues retained, disruption kept to an absolute minimum.

I think we should have rotated the pitch when we got rid of cricket in the 70s. As it stands there is acres of space behind the Kop and South Stand but not enough room to swing a cat on the John Street and Bramall Lane sides.

 

[Rollerball]

Any updates on what, if any renovations etc are being done ATM and is there a timescale?
We know we have asked for an away game first match, if it's not finished can we postpone first home game?
Not really very transparent or informative from the club.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Any updates on what, if any renovations etc are being done ATM and is there a timescale?
We know we have asked for an away game first match, if it's not finished can we postpone first home game?
Not really very transparent or informative from the club.

Strange post.
Why do the fans need to know and why would the club be hiding it?

 

[Broomhall Blade]

Any updates on what, if any renovations etc are being done ATM and is there a timescale?
We know we have asked for an away game first match, if it's not finished can we postpone first home game?
Not really very transparent or informative from the club.

I can confirm the signage for the First Aid Room near the Westfield corner has been replaced with larger more visible signage.
Hope this helps.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Well I personally feel we missed a trick.

There were obvious signs we were turning the truck around when in league one and should have expected progress from our lowest point under Adkins. I felt when Clough was here that we should have taken steps to be positive and make some renovations to the Kop then. Thus being able to manage the attendance within the empty seats and thus avoid our current predicament.
I know some will say that’s ridiculous as the team was shit and needed sorting but Ground funding is a different pot to player funding.

Clubs usually borrow money on a type of Mortgage that is funded as a business plan over a term of years.
For example, I believe we need to flatten the Kop and start again. It’s tired, cramped, poor facilities and not easily developed further. We need better, and something that is future proof as both technology and club demands change in future. Cost of removal and building a new stand with top facilities would be no more than £50m with interest for the loan . But could add 4 thousand seats quite easily.

Now, improved facilities means you can charge more....so say we charge £500 an adult and £250 concession...average of £400 a seat. Those extra seats with the extra matchday revenue the fans bring could generate £2m a season....simple maths says its paid for itself in 25 years!!

Now we could simply build half a new stand at the back and bolt into it, this would be significantly cheaper to do and could have been started while in league one. It would be half the cost of a new stand with the gains I’ve already mentioned. So the 25 year plan to recoup the cost is halved. And this is where we missed the trick...last season should have been the first season it was open and we could have been heading into the premier league in a position to repay the loan early and reap the benefits of the extra 4-6k capacity.

Hindsight I know, but speculate to accumulate in business.

 

[Sheffsteel]

!

Well I personally feel we missed a trick.

There were obvious signs we were turning the truck around when in league one and should have expected progress from our lowest point under Adkins. I felt when Clough was here that we should have taken steps to be positive and make some renovations to the Kop then. Thus being able to manage the attendance within the empty seats and thus avoid our current predicament.
I know some will say that’s ridiculous as the team was shit and needed sorting but Ground funding is a different pot to player funding.

Clubs usually borrow money on a type of Mortgage that is funded as a business plan over a term of years.
For example, I believe we need to flatten the Kop and start again. It’s tired, cramped, poor facilities and not easily developed further. We need better, and something that is future proof as both technology and club demands change in future. Cost of removal and building a new stand with top facilities would be no more than £50m with interest for the loan . But could add 4 thousand seats quite easily.

Now, improved facilities means you can charge more....so say we charge £500 an adult and £250 concession...average of £400 a seat. Those extra seats with the extra matchday revenue the fans bring could generate £2m a season....simple maths says its paid for itself in 25 years!!

Now we could simply build half a new stand at the back and bolt into it, this would be significantly cheaper to do and could have been started while in league one. It would be half the cost of a new stand with the gains I’ve already mentioned. So the 25 year plan to recoup the cost is halved. And this is where we missed the trick...last season should have been the first season it was open and we could have been heading into the premier league in a position to repay the loan early and reap the benefits of the extra 4-6k capacity.

Hindsight I know, but speculate to accumulate in business.

Think your figures are way out Grizzly.
Extensions are much much cheaper then clearing a site, laying foundations and starting afresh.
My guess is the figures are more like,

OPTON A: Bolt-on design
Pay 30 million for an impressive Kop that addresses 90% of supporter issues, gives 3,200 extra seats and ensures capacity is hardly affected so all season ticket holders can continue to watch all home games.
The present bolt-on design costs 30 million and gives 3,200 extra seats = £9,375 per seat.

OPTION B: Totally new stand
Pay 200 million, estimate it’s 150 million for the stand, then almost another 50 million regards 2 years lost revenue and 2 years of stadium hire costs.
for an even better Kop than corrects 100% of supporter issues, more leg room and steeper rake (by definition) means a lower capacity.
A new stand would cost 200 million and give 2500 extra seats = £80,000 per seat.

You mention “accumulate in business” but this is high risk. There are loads of examples where this attitude has been a huge error. Darlington built a 25,000 capacity stadium and have now gone bust. In 1975 we built an impressive new South stand and quickly went down to the 4th division.

Also your suggestion is that Kop prices are increased to match the South stand prices, but I think it’s really really important to have a budget area, with adequate but more basic facilities that people with finance issues are more likely to afford.

 

[Topplayersleave]

Well I personally feel we missed a trick.

There were obvious signs we were turning the truck around when in league one and should have expected progress from our lowest point under Adkins. I felt when Clough was here that we should have taken steps to be positive and make some renovations to the Kop then. Thus being able to manage the attendance within the empty seats and thus avoid our current predicament.
I know some will say that’s ridiculous as the team was shit and needed sorting but Ground funding is a different pot to player funding.

Clubs usually borrow money on a type of Mortgage that is funded as a business plan over a term of years.
For example, I believe we need to flatten the Kop and start again. It’s tired, cramped, poor facilities and not easily developed further. We need better, and something that is future proof as both technology and club demands change in future. Cost of removal and building a new stand with top facilities would be no more than £50m with interest for the loan . But could add 4 thousand seats quite easily.

Now, improved facilities means you can charge more....so say we charge £500 an adult and £250 concession...average of £400 a seat. Those extra seats with the extra matchday revenue the fans bring could generate £2m a season....simple maths says its paid for itself in 25 years!!

Now we could simply build half a new stand at the back and bolt into it, this would be significantly cheaper to do and could have been started while in league one. It would be half the cost of a new stand with the gains I’ve already mentioned. So the 25 year plan to recoup the cost is halved. And this is where we missed the trick...last season should have been the first season it was open and we could have been heading into the premier league in a position to repay the loan early and reap the benefits of the extra 4-6k capacity.

Hindsight I know, but speculate to accumulate in business.

I applaud your ambitions but you do realise who you're preaching to don't you ?

Our fans love, cramped and outdated. They wouldn't pay increased prices if a Champions League spot was guaranteed and a Champions League win the season after that was guaranteed as well.

Mucky, cramped, outdated and cheap is what they like, and one boardroom after another has realised it, and given exactly what the majority want.

 

[Snowman]

I applaud your ambitions but you do realise who you're preaching to don't you ?

Our fans love, cramped and outdated. They wouldn't pay increased prices if a Champions League spot was guaranteed and a Champions League win the season after that was guaranteed as well.

Mucky, cramped, outdated and cheap is what they like, and one boardroom after another has realised it, and given exactly what the majority want.

Chicken Balti pies and more Hendo's.

 

[Dkc]

For me, the Lane would look fantastic with the following improvements:

Extra tier on South Stand, with new executive boxes at the back
Bolt on extension at top of kop
New small top tier for JSS

 

[Sheffsteel]

I applaud your ambitions but you do realise who you're preaching to don't you ?

Our fans love, cramped and outdated. They wouldn't pay increased prices if a Champions League spot was guaranteed and a Champions League win the season after that was guaranteed as well.

Mucky, cramped, outdated and cheap is what they like, and one boardroom after another has realised it, and given exactly what the majority want.

You’re not masking sense. You’ve described the current situation
But ignored the facts that the club have plans in place to massively improve the Kop stand.
Have you seen the plans?

 

[Topplayersleave]

You’re not masking sense. You’ve described the current situation
But ignored the facts that the club have plans in place to massively improve the Kop stand.
Have you seen the plans?

Yes, they look very good

 

[Blade56]

I take it you've never been to one of these modern out of town stadiums built on industrial estates in the middle of nowhere. Some of the saddest most soulless places you can go to. Bramall Lane definitely needs big improvements. Maybe if they met half way and did a Tottenham, built a new ground on the same site, start building it on the car park. I'm not saying that's what I'd want but it would be better than moving location.

On what planet are some of us living on? There will be no new stadium in the next decade minimum! Maybe a few mods to south stand and kop at best in that time scale. We have a great ground, keep the history and atmosphere of a full stadium and improve the facilities.

 

[Topplayersleave]

For me, the Lane would look fantastic with the following improvements:

Extra tier on South Stand, with new executive boxes at the back
Bolt on extension at top of kop
New small top tier for JSS

I think the kop needs completely levelling and rebuilding
It looks like a cowshed built on a slag heap

 

[Sheffsteel]

For me, the Lane would look fantastic with the following improvements:

Extra tier on South Stand, with new executive boxes at the back
Bolt on extension at top of kop
New small top tier for JSS

Agree, although I can’t see anyway where a new top tier in the JS stand giving 1,500 extra seats could be cost effective because you’re losing the income from the executive boxes. Also if South and Kop is done increasing capacity to 42K, then an extra 1,500 seats is hardly needed.

I think the phrase “bolt-on extension” is confusing many.
It’s also massively improved our appalling concourse areas, they will all be enclosed, all under cover, with new fancy/ bigger toilets, bars and kiosks.
It also removes all the pillars, so no more restricted or semi restricted views.
Finishes off the look of the corner with office space that can be used and bring in income 365 days per year.
It can also be used as a fancy/ modern media centre for Gary Lineker and Co when they visit etc.

 

[stringjunior]

I think the kop needs completely levelling and rebuilding
It looks like a cowshed built on a slag heap

It doesn't need rebuilding, but you'd like it rebuilding. There is a difference.

I would imagine it would be prohibitively expensive to do at the moment, and too risky given we might only be short term visitors to the PL.

As much as I would love, like you, to have all the whistles and bells of an upgraded Bramall Lane, I accept we'll probably not have it any time soon. I recommend you try to accept this too.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I think the kop needs completely levelling and rebuilding
It looks like a cowshed built on a slag heap

Must admit that when I went to the Kell Brook fight I was sat in the Westfield corner stand and thought our stadium looked fantastic.
Then I looked towards our Kop, it does look decent from the pitch but then I thought of all the boxing visitors who were visiting Bramall Lane for the first time and I felt a tinge of embarrassment regards what they would think of our historical concourse/ kiosk facilities at the back of the Kop, it’s like going back to the 1980’s.

 

[Dkc]

Agree, although I can’t see anyway where a new top tier in the JS stand giving 1,500 extra seats could be cost effective because you’re losing the income from the executive boxes. Also if South and Kop is done increasing capacity to 42K, then an extra 1,500 seats is hardly a priority.

I think the phrase “bolt-on extension” is confusing many.
It’s also massively improved our appalling concourse areas, they will all be enclosed, all under cover, with new fancy/ bigger toilets, bars and kiosks.
It also removes all the pillars, so no more restricted or semi restricted views.

Right, the kop will be masssively improved. The only thing that won't be addressed is the tight seats. We might even be able to have a pint at the top of the kop steps.

Regarding the JSS, I can see the logic of not wanting to get rid of boxes if they are going to bring in more income than seats. Each box costs about a grand per game. Twenty boxes, 20 grand per game. So each box would need to be replaced with at least 25 seats (say 40 quid per seat x 25 is a grand) to make it worth while.

Question is, how many seats could a smaller second tier hold? I doubt it could even hold 1500, as I doubt you could cram in 75 seats where each box is now (75 x 20 is 1500). But if you could fit a total of 40 seats into each existing box space (retain the existing two rows of five below and add six new rows above) that would give a capacity of 800 on the top tier. 800 match tickets at 40 quid each is 32,000 quid in income as opposed to 20 grand for the boxes.

Back of a beermat calculations I know, and a lot depends on demand for boxes and whether we retain PL status, but it could potentially be done if we have 20 new executive boxes on a new south stand upper tier.