Updates from Wilder

[Barney]

I thought we were discussing out of contract players and not paying transfer fees just compensation

Yes, we are discussing out of contract players that command a compensation fee.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Yes, we are discussing out of contract players that command a compensation fee.

Then the compensation fee can only be sorted after the contract has lapsed, which is in 2 days for all 4 of your suggestions. Otherwise it's a simple transfer fee for a contracted player.

 

[Barney]

Then the compensation fee can only be sorted after the contract has lapsed,

It can be sorted and announced beforehand. Just as deals for out of contract players that don't command compensation can be sorted and announced before their contract has lapsed.

 

[metalblade]

We still have to pay compo as the contract offer was/is still there. Agreed on the compo it won't be astronomical. The dingle offer will have been a token payment so they could start negotiations hence the derisory offer. So Barney do you now see those players are not actually open for negotiation due to their respective clubs still holding them to a contract.

Clubs holding players to their contracts ............................................ THE BASTARDS, our Kev said you can't do that when a larger club comes knocking

 

[The Crab]

Clubs holding players to their contracts ............................................ THE BASTARDS, our Kev said you can't do that when a larger club comes knocking

Don't worry, it'll never catch on

 

[David Lee's first touch]

It can be sorted and announced beforehand. Just as deals for out of contract players that don't command compensation can be sorted and announced before their contract has lapsed.

2 different scenarios that have to be dealt with differently. As stated 24 and under post contract unless the clubs do a deal I.e transfer. 25 and over I'm sure can start negotiations with clubs in the January preceeding their contract expiry, not sure if this applies when the club offer fresh terms.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

ricky holmes looked decent in league 2
can he make the step up

who knows

wont be crying over it

what is your problem , you go on like if w dont sign another 4 OR 5 BEFORE JULY WE WILL GET RELEGATED
lets all chill out and see what occurs

way way way too early to hit the panic button
might just sign a championship player instead
I expect some incoming next week , prepared to see who it is

some players prefer to stay in the south
if they do we dont want them

You don’t half like to make shit up. I’ve never indicated we would get relegated and in a previous thread I predicted we’d finish somewhere between 4th and 8th.


I don’t have a problem. Just an appropriate level of scepticism when it comes to this club and player recruitment. Similarly, I don’t feel the need to pretend I never wanted a player that I did just because he’s gone to another club.


We don’t need to panic over missing out on any one particular player as there are viable alternatives. But it is entirely reasonable to be a little concerned when clubs around us are further ahead in terms of building their squads and are recruiting players that would improve our team. It certainly doesn’t justify pretending those players were never good enough to sign for us in the first place.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

We still have to pay compo as the contract offer was/is still there. Agreed on the compo it won't be astronomical. The dingle offer will have been a token payment so they could start negotiations hence the derisory offer. So Barney do you now see those players are not actually open for negotiation due to their respective clubs still holding them to a contract.

They are open for negotiation IF we are prepared to take the risk of letting a tribunal decide the level of compensation. Clubs often prefer to agree a fee so neither party gets a nasty surprise afterwards but it is possible to simply open talks with the player and take him and proceed to tribunal (offers can still be made to settle prior to tribunal but after the player has been signed).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Our right back was a value for money purchase he was forced to make do with too. Boy he had it tough.

I got the impression that by January, we had a final roll of the dice for a late push hence signing Brayford, Coutts and Done. In the summer before, it felt very much like Clough was making do as he signed players like Alcock, Higdon, McEveley, JCR, Wallace, McGahey etc.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

No, you said "those players are not open for negotiation due to their respective clubs still holding them to a contract." This isn't true because if a fee is agreed, the player is open for negotiation.

"nothing can be officially announced till their contracts have actually lapsed" - Again, not true. If a fee is agreed and the player is signed, it can be announced just as any other free transfer can before their previous deal ends.

The fee doesn’t even need to be agreed as stated above. We can negotiate with these players. At some point, a fee will have to be decided either by agreement or by tribunal but that can be after we’ve taken the player so long as we’re willing to take our chances on a tribunal outcome.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

They are open for negotiation IF we are prepared to take the risk of letting a tribunal decide the level of compensation. Clubs often prefer to agree a fee so neither party gets a nasty surprise afterwards but it is possible to simply open talks with the player and take him and proceed to tribunal (offers can still be made to settle prior to tribunal but after the player has been signed).

Don't think it matters now Dane just watched tufty's interview on club website seems we're heavily reliant on outs,although my itk told me this morning we are at advanced talks with 4 players and another 1 is done already so I don't know what to think

 

[Barney]

The fee doesn’t even need to be agreed as stated above. We can negotiate with these players. At some point, a fee will have to be decided either by agreement or by tribunal but that can be after we’ve taken the player so long as we’re willing to take our chances on a tribunal outcome.

Oh fair enough, I knew we could negotiate, get the deals done and announce them before their contracts run out but I thought we'd have to get past the club first - even less restrictive than I thought then.

 

[BushBlade]

Don't think it matters now Dane just watched tufty's interview on club website seems we're heavily reliant on outs,although my itk told me this morning we are at advanced talks with 4 players and another 1 is done already so I don't know what to think

There are two options.

Your ITK is correct but we're keeping the deals quiet until they're fully complete and ratified by the FA.

Your ITK isn't ITK.

 

[S5Blade]

Oh fair enough, I knew we could negotiate, get the deals done and announce them before their contracts run out but I thought we'd have to get past the club first - even less restrictive than I thought then.

I still dont think its right, I think if the clubs fall under the same FA then you cant enter into discussions with them unless the current club gives permission or the contract expires. Different if your talking to players from other FAs I believe. That been said, its all a load of bollocks anyway as agents will know what their player wants, where they want to go and will be pimping them out long before their contract expires.

 

[Darthblade]

I wonder who we will sell at the start of the season, Done, Adams or Brayford?

Hopefully Scougal & Done ......

UTB & FTP

 

[Barney]

I still dont think its right, I think if the clubs fall under the same FA then you cant enter into discussions with them unless the current club gives permission or the contract expires.

Which is what I was saying. I was disagreeing with a comment saying that it was impossible to negotiate with players who command compensation before their contract expires.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I still dont think its right, I think if the clubs fall under the same FA then you cant enter into discussions with them unless the current club gives permission or the contract expires. Different if your talking to players from other FAs I believe. That been said, its all a load of bollocks anyway as agents will know what their player wants, where they want to go and will be pimping them out long before their contract expires.

If a player is in the last 6 months of his contract, he is free to talk to other clubs to agree a contract upon expiry of his current one.

If the player is under 24, the club is entitled to compensation for the departing player provided that they have offered him a contract greater than or equal to the previous one. If the clubs cannot agree the sum for compensation, it will be decided by tribunal.

The club cannot hold the under 24 player for longer than his contract or prevent him talking to other clubs, they are merely entitled to be compensated.

 

[blade too long]

You don’t half like to make shit up. I’ve never indicated we would get relegated and in a previous thread I predicted we’d finish somewhere between 4th and 8th.


I don’t have a problem. Just an appropriate level of scepticism when it comes to this club and player recruitment. Similarly, I don’t feel the need to pretend I never wanted a player that I did just because he’s gone to another club.


We don’t need to panic over missing out on any one particular player as there are viable alternatives. But it is entirely reasonable to be a little concerned when clubs around us are further ahead in terms of building their squads and are recruiting players that would improve our team. It certainly doesn’t justify pretending those players were never good enough to sign for us in the first place.

I never pretended I wanted any player he might be worth a punt but Id never go on videos of odd goals
He might be fabulous , but hes come from league 2 , and has gone on unnoticed till now at 29 years old
Theres lots of one season wonders around , but its always a punt on league 2 players which is what I originally put , might be worth a punt

The fact we havent signed him dopes not make me more sceptical about Wilder though
how you have adopted a more than healthy scepticism about any thing sufc related , is to a degree understandable
but lets try and give Chris a chance

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I never pretended I wanted any player he might be worth a punt but Id never go on videos of odd goals
He might be fabulous , but hes come from league 2 , and has gone on unnoticed till now at 29 years old
Theres lots of one season wonders around , but its always a punt on league 2 players which is what I originally put , might be worth a punt

The fact we havent signed him dopes not make me more sceptical about Wilder though
how you have adopted a more than healthy scepticism about any thing sufc related , is to a degree understandable
but lets try and give Chris a chance

I'll give CW every chance as I do with all our managers. It's those above the manager that I'm sceptical about.

 

[blade too long]

I'll give CW every chance as I do with all our managers. It's those above the manager that I'm sceptical about.

shouldnt be ,
they are decent at putting in money
just not great at picking managers

 

[metalblade]

shouldnt be ,
they are decent at putting in money
just not great at picking managers

You had too many shandies again?

 

[wizadry]

shouldnt be ,
they are decent at putting in money
just not great at picking managers

The board have proven time and again that even when they appoint a decent manager they make wrong choices after said appointment.

They give money to the wrong ones and because of this they are reluctant to give money to the ones who need it to rectify very bad decisions and signings from previous regimes, this to me indicates that they aren't always decent at putting money in as you suggest.

What it boils down to is decision making by the board and to put it nicely, they aren't very good at it.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

shouldnt be ,
they are decent at putting in money
just not great at picking managers

Decent at putting money in but in a very boom and bust manner. One manager gets lavished with cash (Robson, Clough), others have to clean the mess up after and fail largely because of circumstance (Blackwell, Adkins, Wilson).

They aren't just shit at picking managers. You overestimate the manager's role. There is so much wrong. A simple example being the scouting structure, or the chalk and cheese approach each time they appoint a new manager.

 

[The Crab]

shouldnt be ,
they are decent at putting in money
just not great at picking managers

It's a pretty important aspect of running a football club though to be fair. Has any other club got this aspect as repeatedly and monumentally wrong as we have?

 

[BushBlade]

It's a pretty important aspect of running a football club though to be fair. Has any other club got this aspect as repeatedly and monumentally wrong as we have?

If the club is badly run it's always going to choose the 'wrong' manager because no manager can work miracles.

What it unusual is that, in most cases, an owner who runs a club as badly as us tends to pack it in, cut their losses and sell up or put the club into admin. Villa is a good example. Lerner sold them for around what he paid for them and wrote off everything he'd invested.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

If the club is badly run it's always going to choose the 'wrong' manager because no manager can work miracles.

What it unusual is that, in most cases, an owner who runs a club as badly as us tends to pack it in, cut their losses and sell up or put the club into admin. Villa is a good example. Lerner sold them for around what he paid for them and wrote off everything he'd invested.

Kev will never do that bush it makes too much sense.

 

[BushBlade]

Kev will never do that bush it makes too much sense.

Not to him it doesn't. He knows that if we can get back into the championship we've got half a chance of sneaking into the playoffs and, if we won, he'd get his money back.

What I think he's overestimating, is the likelihood of that actually happening. And, IMHO, that sums him up. He keeps taking gambles where he underestimates the probability of failure. Then he's shocked and angry when the gamble fails, lashes out and sacks someone.

 

[Revolution]

If the club is badly run it's always going to choose the 'wrong' manager because no manager can work miracles.

What it unusual is that, in most cases, an owner who runs a club as badly as us tends to pack it in, cut their losses and sell up or put the club into admin. Villa is a good example. Lerner sold them for around what he paid for them and wrote off everything he'd invested.

He can't sell. Nobody is interested in a League one team that doesn't own its own ground.

 

[David Lee's first touch]

Not to him it doesn't. He knows that if we can get back into the championship we've got half a chance of sneaking into the playoffs and, if we won, he'd get his money back.

What I think he's overestimating, is the likelihood of that actually happening. And, IMHO, that sums him up. He keeps taking gambles where he underestimates the probability of failure. Then he's shocked and angry when the gamble fails, lashes out and sacks someone.

The trouble with that approach is that while we're down hear the top end of the championship gets stronger season after season, we have not been successful in our persuit of promotion from this league for 5 seasons and when we do finally get out of this shit league the gulf in quality between us and the top half of the championship will be huge. Without chucking money at it which is a gamble as it doesn't guarantee success, as we are all aware, we will be stuck in the lower reaches of that league for many a season. I personally can't see Kev rolling the dice if indeed we get promoted.

 

[BushBlade]

The trouble with that approach is that while we're down hear the top end of the championship gets stronger season after season, we have not been successful in our persuit of promotion from this league for 5 seasons and when we do finally get out of this shit league the gulf in quality between us and the top half of the championship will be huge. Without chucking money at it which is a gamble as it doesn't guarantee success, as we are all aware, we will be stuck in the lower reaches of that league for many a season. I personally can't see Kev rolling the dice if indeed we get promoted.

Agree, KM is unlikely to want to stick more money into the club, that's why he found Princey.

We could, if we did it properly and gave a manager sufficient time to do so, build our way out of the league. If we'd done it after DW's first season we could well have gone up by now. But then KM got hold of the Prince's money and gave it to a manager who'd built his reputation on working with tight budgets, taking his time to build a club and said 'just buy us out of the league and do it quickly'.

So now, no one at the club, not the board or the supporters have got the patience left to go through a two to three year rebuilding programme. And every time KM promises us promotion and we don't get it that season, he has to sack the manager to sell season tickets, which means we keep taking one step forward and two backwards.