Wilder - Get Rid Now, or After Last Game

[BladeByChoice]

That's not the definition of insanity, it's just a stupid saying people keep repeating.

There are countless examples of things in life which will yield different results by doing the exact same thing.

I challenge you to give one concrete example of that:

Define you case:
State your variables and constants:
State the values that they hold:

And then show 2 different sets of results from that scenario

 

[BladeByChoice]

My final(ish) word on this. We were in League 1 for 6 seasons. Not all of that time was an unmitigated disaster, although bits were. We got out of League 1 nine years ago, and went on a good run, spending two seasons in the PL, one great, one a disaster. In the five years since the 2021 relegation, the only promotion has been achieved under Paul Heckingbottom. This achievement also got the club out of a considerable financial hole, although it obviously didn't end well. Since his return, Chris Wilder has got the club to one playoff final following a season which should have resulted in automatic promotion. The standard of football, apart from a purple patch from November to February this season, has been grim to watch. It was appalling yesterday.
Considering this, in what universe is the current manager thought to be the answer to all the issues afflicting the club now, and for the foreseeable future??
If people think he is the answer, fair enough, but I just can't see any positive change if he remains.

I’m for Wilder staying next season, for no other reason than I don’t think anyone at the club has a clue how to replace him with a modern management structure DOF/Headcoach ect

But well reasoned posts like this are starting to win me over.

 

[Colombia Blade]

Bit late to the conversation but if Wilder goes who replaces him? I'm all for change if it's for an improvement, but who improves Wilder that a) is available and b) would actually come? Change for change's sake without a strong candidate lined up gives you someone like Selles, who was a complete and utter disaster. If there's someone like Dyche available and willing then fair enough, but sacking Wilder than THEN start looking for a replacement like last time is pure madness

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

I challenge you to give one concrete example of that:

Define you case:
State your variables and constants:
State the values that they hold:

And then show 2 different sets of results from that scenario

I'll not bother because we both already know where you're going with it.

There's many things you can repeatedly perform exactly the same that will eventually produce a different outcome.

The action is the same but getting a different result is dependent on the objective having already been effected by the previous attempts.

In any case it's still not the definition of insanity.

 

[UTB Blade]

So in your opinion Wilder is the only person who should manage us?

Not only next season, but forever.

On that basis we are stuck with Wilder FOREVER?

Post #777:
"I've said it before but the club needs to do proper long-term succession planning for when Wilder leaves, at whatever point that is."

 

[UTB Blade]

So we’re pigs for not agreeing with you?

There was me thinking it was ok to have a difference of opinion without being called a pig.

Hi, The Crab , I wasn't calling you or anyone else a pig.

I was just trying to make the point that, if something that United fans are calling for, is something that would make our rivals happy, maybe that's an indication that it's not the best idea, but obviously others have different opinions and that's fine.

Evidently I didn't express that view in the best possible way, but I wasn't trying to call you or anyone else a pig. Sorry if it came across that way.

UTB

 

[UTB Blade]

Quick reminder of what happened the first time we got rid of wilder:

View attachment 235872

Fancy using the ‘insanity is repeating the same thing’ cliche when you’re defending a manager here on his third stint. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so ridiculous.

Fancy not being able to understand the difference between a managerial change in one set of circumstances, ie the club under long-standing ownership, with experience and understanding of English football, replacing the departing manager with a proven manager already employed by the club in a different capacity, so, in effect, an internal promotion; and a completely different set of circumstances, ie the club under new ownership, new to English football as well as to the club, replacing the departing manager with an unproven gamble unknown to the club. It'd be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous.

 

[Broomhall Blade]

Yeah I think that's more likely to be honest. Problem is once people stop going, it's hard to get them back. It might be a case of people saying they're not going with Wilder in charge but it's hard to get back into the routine once you're out of it

That's my worry, I have 2 days left too renew, I would say I'm about 90% not renewing because I cannot see the club moving forward however small with Wilder in charge.
The 10% is a mix of the thought that Blackburn at home could be the last time I stepped foot in the lane, due to what you have said that I can see me getting out of the routine and finding it hard to get back that routine even when Wilder does leave.
The other thing is I'm 60 this year so qualify for the over 60 rate on my season ticket.There is a little niggle saying you have paid full price for God knows how many years and you finally qualify for a concession and your not renewing.
As well as a moaning git I'm tight as well.

 

[metalblade]

Not true. There's not a massive split. There's a vocal online minority who want shut of Wilder, and will want shut of every manager who doesn't deliver instant success. Unfortunately it's part of today's culture. People get bored easily and want change for change's sake. No promotion? Change the manager, he's shit.

If there was indeed a massive split, we would be hearing anti-Wilder songs from the terraces. We aren't.

Of course there is a lot of criticism, which is often deserved. But to imply that half of our fanbase support sacking Wilder this summer is way off the mark. It's probably less than 10%.

Don't know if you have noticed, but we aren't hearing any sogs from the terraces either pro or anti Wilder. All we have is apathy.

 

[I should coco]

Fancy not being able to understand the difference between a managerial change in one set of circumstances, ie the club under long-standing ownership, with experience and understanding of English football, replacing the departing manager with a proven manager already employed by the club in a different capacity, so, in effect, an internal promotion; and a completely different set of circumstances, ie the club under new ownership, new to English football as well as to the club, replacing the departing manager with an unproven gamble unknown to the club. It'd be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous.

And theirin lies the nub of our problem.

I am a Wilder man, not because I think he is the only man capable of the job, nor his Bladey Bladeness, and I do find some of his comments very tiresome.
My problem is, that I have NO faith in our bunxh of clueless Yanks to come up with anything better.

I accept the paucity of ambition my above statemtent suggests, and I'd love a modern DoF and Technical Team structure, but I simply do not trust these chancers to get it remotely right.

I accept that they could surprise me with a sensible and well thought through replacement, but past experience suggests not. They are more likely to just lump on 36 red and let the wheel spin. After all, this is what 'disrupters' do, innit?

 

[UTB Blade]

What about the year Hecky was manager and we got promoted to the PL? Shall we ignore that because it doesn’t fit your narrative?

Nobody's calling for a Hecky type managerial change, that I've seen, and even if they were, how would we go about it, when that type of managerial change is impossible to replicate, now, because all the circumstances are different? That's why I'm ignoring it - not because it doesn't fit my narrative, but because nobody's asking for it and, even if they were, it's impossible to achieve, because:

1 - The people in charge of the Hecky managerial change no longer own/govern the club. Prince Abdullah had owned us for several years (partly as joint owner) when the Hecky managerial change took place. PA is a huge sports fan, and was experienced in sports club ownership, and experienced in, and knowledgeable about, English football. This is worlds apart from the owners we have now. From what I've read about them on here and elsewhere, they knew virtually nothing about English football, much less owning a football club in the EFL, when they took us on, hence they made such a dog's dinner of the last managerial change. Ok, they've owned us a bit longer, now, but they've still got nothing like the wealth of knowledge and experience that PA had.

2 - We don't have a "Hecky" at the club, to slot seamlessly into the manager's position like he did, as far as I'm aware, to say nothing of Lester and McCall. Hecky was a proven, experienced manager, already employed by the club in a different capacity. He wasn't an 'unknown quantity' like Selles was. He basically got the job as a result of an internal promotion. There are people at the club who could be promoted internally, as Hecky was, but none of them have the depth and breadth of managerial experience of Hecky, I don't think.

The notion that Wilder is the only manager for us is one that even the most staunch Wilderites should be worried about, if it’s the case then the club is absolutely broken beyond repair.

If COH go down the same route as they did with Selles, then we will end up in the same situation. If they restructure the football side of the club, make it fit for purpose and not reliant on one person, it should see an improvement. It might not be instantaneous, then I’m fairly sure you’d jump all over it and demand that Wilder be reappointed, but in the long run we can’t keep being reliant on one bloke who was good for us 7-10 years ago and now seems to have lost his motivational skills.

As it stands with the club, Wilder is the right man. We won’t get promoted with him, but we won’t get relegated either (unless he keeps playing McGuinness and Rothwell). If that’s the limit of our ambition it’s going to be a long few seasons.

Agree with a lot of this - some of it is similar to what I was saying in post#777.

However, no idea why you think this:

"It might not be instantaneous, then I’m fairly sure you’d jump all over it and demand that Wilder be reappointed."

If I wanted instantaneous success, I wouldn't be content with the last two seasons and happy to keep the same manager. I'm not one of the ones "jumping all over" stuff, "demanding" a change of manager, because the one we've got hasn't brought us immediate success. Heck, I was someone who would've given David Weir a bit longer, for Pete's sake!

 

[Eskimo]

That's my worry, I have 2 days left too renew, I would say I'm about 90% not renewing because I cannot see the club moving forward however small with Wilder in charge.
The 10% is a mix of the thought that Blackburn at home could be the last time I stepped foot in the lane, due to what you have said that I can see me getting out of the routine and finding it hard to get back that routine even when Wilder does leave.
The other thing is I'm 60 this year so qualify for the over 60 rate on my season ticket.There is a little niggle saying you have paid full price for God knows how many years and you finally qualify for a concession and your not renewing.
As well as a moaning git I'm tight as well.

I’ve renewed, taking out 2 years when I was a student and worked on match days as a steward it is my 60th consecutive season ticket. I love the wins, hate losing but enjoy the roller coaster ride. Yes I’m looking forward to next year. Gerrit bought Broomhill

 

[The Crab]

Hi, The Crab , I wasn't calling you or anyone else a pig.

I was just trying to make the point that, if something that United fans are calling for, is something that would make our rivals happy, maybe that's an indication that it's not the best idea, but obviously others have different opinions and that's fine.

Evidently I didn't express that view in the best possible way, but I wasn't trying to call you or anyone else a pig. Sorry if it came across that way.

UTB

I probably read it wrong, thank you though

 

[Blade56]

I’ve renewed, taking out 2 years when I was a student and worked on match days as a steward it is my 60th consecutive season ticket. I love the wins, hate losing but enjoy the roller coaster ride. Yes I’m looking forward to next year. Gerrit bought Broomhill

I’ve just completed my 65th season (not consecutive not all season tickets). I was a silver disk holder and pay on the day punter for many years but well done on 60 consecutive Sets. Did you know it’s free to renew your season tickets when you turn 90?

 

[Roygbiv]

That's my worry, I have 2 days left too renew, I would say I'm about 90% not renewing because I cannot see the club moving forward however small with Wilder in charge.
The 10% is a mix of the thought that Blackburn at home could be the last time I stepped foot in the lane, due to what you have said that I can see me getting out of the routine and finding it hard to get back that routine even when Wilder does leave.
The other thing is I'm 60 this year so qualify for the over 60 rate on my season ticket.There is a little niggle saying you have paid full price for God knows how many years and you finally qualify for a concession and your not renewing.
As well as a moaning git I'm tight as well.

There are a few different reasons people aren’t renewing, and they all tie back to where we’ve been as a fanbase. We’re still coming down from the incredible high of Wilder 1.0. Hecky kept the music playing for a while, but even then it never quite felt the same. Last season, the buzz of promotion had faded, the football was flat, and most fans felt uninspired. Then Wembley happened, and it drained so much out of us that plenty of people started asking themselves what the point of it all was.

Now we’re coming off the back of a dreadful season, with the same manager who once gave us that unbelievable high — only he isn’t the same figure anymore. The Wilder debate is fascinating because so many people aren’t judging him on what he is now. Some want him in charge because they’re chasing nostalgia, trying to relive that magical period. When you criticise him, it feels to them like you’re criticising the memory of something precious. People say it’s a “bladey blade” thing, but I think it’s deeper: it’s about longing for how things felt, hoping lightning can strike twice. For many, it will never get better than that promotion under Wilder — the six grim years in League One, the misfits who came together, the odds defied, and a manager who was one of our own. It’s completely understandable that people want that feeling back.

But there’s another side to it. Some fans just want to move on. Wilder fatigue is real. He’s been here, on and off, for a decade — remarkable in modern football — but the party ran out of steam a long time ago. The baggage he brings now (the mates on social media, the local media cheerleading, the whole ecosystem around him) pushes some people into stronger positions than they’d otherwise take. Deep down, most don’t think he’s a bad manager; they just don’t think he’s worth the hassle anymore. Seeing him in the dugout reminds them of what he used to be, and it frustrates them that others can’t accept that the dream has ended.

In reality, Wilder isn't the big issue. Him being here just symbolises how little progress the club has actually made in the last decade despite the successes that came about due to him

 

[Tarqs]

Its been a frustrating season. But it has been informative. The question is whether Wilder and the board understand what they have been looking at. Our recruitment has been a shambles with the exception of Bamford Bindon Riedawald. Hjelde Hoever Ogbene Matos Soumare are not even good cover.

The most galling is permanent signings of Rothwell who is lazy. Chong who is Lazy. McGuinness who will never make a championship centre back. Tanganga for me will only make it provided we get a strong centre back who can organise the back four. Cannon who is.......well just being Cannon mostly ineffective.

Performances from Hamer Campbell and Burrows have gone down significantly. We don't appear to be organised on the pitch. I question the coaching for that and for players making the same mistakes over and over.

At this stage I dont trust Wilder to get it right. His ability to see what is really happening and to make in game adjustments is poor. His inability to take criticism and learn from it instead of doubling down is bigger weakness.

Soumare is better than arblaster
Ogbene is better than Chong...

But I'd agree on the others.

 

[carthesis]

I'll not bother because we both already know where you're going with it.

There's many things you can repeatedly perform exactly the same that will eventually produce a different outcome.

The action is the same but getting a different result is dependent on the objective having already been effected by the previous attempts.

In any case it's still not the definition of insanity.

Or because there are other variables that have changed that haven't been accounted for.

In football, your teams performance CANNOT be identical year on year, no matter how hard you try, because players age. Players change. The composition of the League you're in changes (£ up, 3 down). Other teams change things.

And on. And on.

The statement is from Einstein, and in his world of theoretical physics, where every variable MUST be controlled, then getting different outcomes from the same inputs feels like madness. That statement is, i believe, actually to do with his other statements on the application of Quantum Theory, where exactly that can hapen however, and he never got on with it!

Overall, it generally means "If you don't put in place things to accept and control significant change in inputs, then don't expect significant change in outputs."

Is changing Wilder a good idea? I don't know. He's not got the Magic Touch he had previously, but everything is a gamble. Our previous escapades with changing to managers who want to try new things hasn't ever gone well for us, for reasons I cannot provide an adequate explanation for, but that must be something deeply engrained in the culture of the club, because those issues persist no matter HOW MUCH we try to change in the background.

 

[Tarqs]

Bit late to the conversation but if Wilder goes who replaces him? I'm all for change if it's for an improvement, but who improves Wilder that a) is available and b) would actually come? Change for change's sake without a strong candidate lined up gives you someone like Selles, who was a complete and utter disaster. If there's someone like Dyche available and willing then fair enough, but sacking Wilder than THEN start looking for a replacement like last time is pure madness

For me, this is such a lazy view - who out there is better than wilder?

This is on the board to finally deploy a proper fucking application process, rather than just appoint a name advised to them by a fucking poker player.

 

[Tarqs]

Don't know if you have noticed, but we aren't hearing any sogs from the terraces either pro or anti Wilder. All we have is apathy.

there's barely a song.

In fact vs Preston, there were hundreds that left after 20 mins, IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP.

I've never seen that before.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Nobody's calling for a Hecky type managerial change, that I've seen, and even if they were, how would we go about it, when that type of managerial change is impossible to replicate, now, because all the circumstances are different? That's why I'm ignoring it - not because it doesn't fit my narrative, but because nobody's asking for it and, even if they were, it's impossible to achieve, because:

1 - The people in charge of the Hecky managerial change no longer own/govern the club. Prince Abdullah had owned us for several years (partly as joint owner) when the Hecky managerial change took place. PA is a huge sports fan, and was experienced in sports club ownership, and experienced in, and knowledgeable about, English football. This is worlds apart from the owners we have now. From what I've read about them on here and elsewhere, they knew virtually nothing about English football, much less owning a football club in the EFL, when they took us on, hence they made such a dog's dinner of the last managerial change. Ok, they've owned us a bit longer, now, but they've still got nothing like the wealth of knowledge and experience that PA had.

2 - We don't have a "Hecky" at the club, to slot seamlessly into the manager's position like he did, as far as I'm aware, to say nothing of Lester and McCall. Hecky was a proven, experienced manager, already employed by the club in a different capacity. He wasn't an 'unknown quantity' like Selles was. He basically got the job as a result of an internal promotion. There are people at the club who could be promoted internally, as Hecky was, but none of them have the depth and breadth of managerial experience of Hecky, I don't think.


Agree with a lot of this - some of it is similar to what I was saying in post#777.

However, no idea why you think this:

"It might not be instantaneous, then I’m fairly sure you’d jump all over it and demand that Wilder be reappointed."

If I wanted instantaneous success, I wouldn't be content with the last two seasons and happy to keep the same manager. I'm not one of the ones "jumping all over" stuff, "demanding" a change of manager, because the one we've got hasn't brought us immediate success. Heck, I was someone who would've given David Weir a bit longer, for Pete's sake!

Hecky just proves that we don’t just have to have Wilder to be (relatively) successful, he’s achieved more with the club, more recently than Wilder has. There are tonnes of Hecky type options out there, Championship managers who would operate without a structure behind them and without making loads of fuss because they’d be happy to be employed by Sheffield United and not their current club.

The reference to ‘instantaneous’ is more about the constant “Wilder would do better” comments that would be made every time someone else lost a game. Ignoring the fact that Wilder’s team have lost a lot of games this season and his motivational skills seem to have deserted him.

Like I say, we probably need Wilder because of the mess we’re in as a club, but just because Selles and Jokanovic were terrible, people have now decided that without Wilder it will always be the same. If COH take their heads from up their backsides you just never know.

 

[Revolution]

Hecky just proves that we don’t just have to have Wilder to be (relatively) successful, he’s achieved more with the club, more recently than Wilder has. There are tonnes of Hecky type options out there, Championship managers who would operate without a structure behind them and without making loads of fuss because they’d be happy to be employed by Sheffield United and not their current club.

The reference to ‘instantaneous’ is more about the constant “Wilder would do better” comments that would be made every time someone else lost a game. Ignoring the fact that Wilder’s team have lost a lot of games this season and his motivational skills seem to have deserted him.

Like I say, we probably need Wilder because of the mess we’re in as a club, but just because Selles and Jokanovic were terrible, people have now decided that without Wilder it will always be the same. If COH take their heads from up their backsides you just never know.

I would not have tried it, of course, but I am confident that if we had appointed Heckingbottom after we canned Selles he would have achieved similar results.

The key argument for keeping Wilder - it is stronger than all other points in his favour - is that the current ownership cannot be trusted to appoint someone who is competent