The World Cup

[Davalon]

Is it the people of the country or the country itself you have distain for ?

You'd rather spend time with Scottish football supporters and the nation is a nation of losers ?

It's hardly surprising we're a nation of losers when there's so much emphasis by so many today to tread on any remote pride in being English.

Outside of sport, any form of patriotism is unacceptable to so many today. The same people who act that way are the same ones who make jokes about getting thrown in jail for being English.

The sad part is that sporting achievement brings people of all backgrounds together. We were stood in Herons near Chaucer last week discussing England's chances with an Asian shop worker, an elderly West Indian, and two excited young lads of Somali heritage.

 

[nopigfansintown]

See that’s the thing individual we have a couple of players that would fit into any of the three other top 4 seeds
The rest are adequate and not as good as they believe they are
Look at the performances of the Argentina player last night who’ve played or do play in our PL

He left Foden, TAA, Palmer, MGW, Lewis Hall, Maguire and Wharton at home. All better ball players than those he utilised, who would get in most sides in the world. He did take Mainoo but he didn't use him at all iirc. The only ball players he took are the automatic starters e.g. Kane or those who also possess elite athleticism e.g. Bellingham. He's a reactive, counter attacking manager scared of his own shadow like Southgate.

 

[Gimli]

After we went one nil up we yet again panicked and retreated allowing Argentina free rein. They sensed the fear and smelled blood. This is a pattern we've seen all too often, Italy and Spain in Euros finals spring to mind. Contrast that with how Argentina played when they went two one up, they went for the jugular to try and get a third.

It happens every time - surely at some point you’ve got to accept that sitting back doesn’t work.

Yes there’s a chance that by continuing to press higher up the pitch and playing the same way you’ve played to start the game that you get picked off but conceding two thirds of the pitch to the opposition hasn’t worked in all of the examples you listed and I’ll add Croatia to that too.

Two World Cup semis and Two Euros Finals - we’ve led in 3 of them and equalised against Spain in the other. We’ve gone on to lose all of them.

 

[SwissBlade]

He left Foden, TAA, Palmer, MGW, Lewis Hall, Maguire and Wharton at home. All better ball players than those he utilised, who would get in most sides in the world. He did take Mainoo but he didn't use him at all iirc. The only ball players he took are the automatic starters e.g. Kane or those who also possess elite athleticism e.g. Bellingham. He's a reactive, counter attacking manager scared of his own shadow like Southgate.

You're right about the players he left at home, my squad would've looked very different.

But i also feel like he didn't use the squad he took well enough either.

Against Panama it was an easy game to give some experience to the likes of Henderson in goal. He could've given more minutes to Eze, Watkins and Toney and Mainoo didn't even get a minute.

The players he did use, they were often playing with the handbrake on or recovering from injury or illness.

 

[nopigfansintown]

You're right about the players he left at home, my squad would've looked very different.

But i also feel like he didn't use the squad he took well enough either.

Against Panama it was an easy game to give some experience to the likes of Henderson in goal. He could've given more minutes to Eze, Watkins and Toney and Mainoo didn't even get a minute.

The players he did use, they were often playing with the handbrake on or recovering from injury or illness.

Yep, he could've also rested the likes of Kane at times too. Not doing that shows he had little faith in his own choices.

Ultimately we haven't controlled any game. The job of a coach is to find a pattern and personnel that allows you to consistently control games as that is the best way to yield consistent results.The squad has to give you both depth and the ability to switch shape. He went back five with no natural wing backs to call upon, and a right footer playing LB/LWB .

 

[Davalon]

He left Foden, TAA, Palmer, MGW, Lewis Hall, Maguire and Wharton at home. All better ball players than those he utilised, who would get in most sides in the world. He did take Mainoo but he didn't use him at all iirc. The only ball players he took are the automatic starters e.g. Kane or those who also possess elite athleticism e.g. Bellingham. He's a reactive, counter attacking manager scared of his own shadow like Southgate.

The squad choices looked ok until we met one of the better teams, then the absence of those not taken and one or two not used from the bench showed.

Yet again England have been shown to be largely flat track bullies and shit the bed when eventually meeting the bigger boys.

 

[Ecco1889]

With those tactics after we scored,we may have well stuck with Southgate.
Got to be brave to win football matches,sitting back against these top teams will inevitably end like this.
We were in a winning position and managed to cock it up again.
What an opportunity we’ve thrown away….

 

[Addison]

Glad its all over I wont have to suffer pigs fans saying we're all England arent we for another 4 years. A very Sheffield United performance by England. Capable of beating the poorer sides. Good in patches but when it comes down to playing the top sides they dont possess the ability to beat them. Englands so called star players didnt turn up when it mattered. Manager tactically outhought at 1-0 up. Every Argentian sub improved them. Every England one was the opposite.

Trying to close the game down against the World champions was never going to work. Substituting the pace of Gordon started the rot. Having said that Tuchel performed better than Souhgate would have but he fell into the trap of thinking for the 3rd game running he could nick a result with a back five. The fact a small side like Argentina could cause us so many problems in the air at the back reflected the lack of capable centre backs that England have missed for many years.

It felt like a re run of the play off final against Sunderland where De Bris tactics changed the game second half.

 

[Selly]

That’s the thing for me. Sometimes, the ultra-low block is the right percentage game to play. It’s never 100% safe, but sometimes it’s just bad luck or a silly one-off lapse. Even if a team concedes, it doesn’t always mean that it was the wrong plan.

However, last night…

It was SO obvious that the tactic wasn’t working. Argentina had countless chances. Hit the post twice, had two headers saved well, a couple of other narrow misses. They had barely anything at all before our tactical change and then suddenly it was threat after threat. If anything, it’s a wonder that it only finished 2-1. Argentina could have scored five during that last half an hour.

So the whole ‘no regrets’ thing from Tuchel is nonsense. I might agree with him if we’d mostly kept them at bay but then conceded from a freak deflection and lost on penalties. But how he didn’t see what was happening is mind boggling.

The thing is - if you go into the ultra low block with 6 defenders at 1-0 you better be damn sure its going to work.

Why? Because if you DO concede you have precisely nowhere to go - and that was evident last night.

If you stick with what you were doing, or even go a little more defensive and try and hit them on the counter, you should still have the personnel available to get back on the front foot.

As soon as they scored anyone who has watched football knew that the only question was whether they would score again before FT or in ET - there was zero chance of England presenting ANY threat to the Argentinian goal.

 

[Bladedog]

Until we can learn to control possession when we take the lead against these top sides we,ll never win anything.

 

[Rodders]

I disagree with that. By my reckoning there were only three players in the England Squad who've not won a major trophy at club level (Pickford, Anderson and Toney), either domestic or European. I may have missed some, so i'll happily be corrected on that.

There is no way the likes of Stones, Kane, Bellingham, Rice, Watkins or even Djed Spence don't have a winning mentality, when they've picked up silverware in the way they have done at club level.

I don't think that England crumbled under the pressure last night either, they didn't hide, they stood up to Argentina until the death. Yes mistakes were made tactically, with changes, with fitness and of course ability. There was a lack of conviction to go and finish the job with a 2nd or 3rd, but I'd dispute that the mentality was at fault.

This group is probably the best group of players we've had who were mentally prepared when we look back at previous squads and campaigns where we've failed.

The subs were wank, granted - but we're still hugely lacking technically compared to other teams. I think this is where the "mindset" comes in; we still can't control a game though passing and possession - it's still hit and hope, chase the ball into the channels and eventually knacker ourselves out. Finishing a WC SF with Dan Burn up front FFS!

I think we're getting there bit-by-bit - if you compare the technical ability of our players in the 00's and early 10's against top European sides compared to where we are now, there's a marked difference ... but I still think there's a work in progress in terms of being truly equals. We still have that old mindset I feel and don't have the technical composure to take the sting out of a game like that.

 

[GrunkyPeep]

It's hardly surprising we're a nation of losers when there's so much emphasis by so many today to tread on any remote pride in being English.

Outside of sport, any form of patriotism is unacceptable to so many today. The same people who act that way are the same ones who make jokes about getting thrown in jail for being English.

The sad part is that sporting achievement brings people of all backgrounds together. We were stood in Herons near Chaucer last week discussing England's chances with an Asian shop worker, an elderly West Indian, and two excited young lads of Somali heritage.

Which bits of English pride do you feel get trodden on?

 

[Gimli]

we need a 100 year plan like the Japanese!

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

Some absolutely damning stats here

How England Threw Away Their World Cup Dream | Opta Analyst

Once again at a major tournament, England took the lead against quality opposition and failed to keep hold of it. This is how they fell short in familiar fashion.

theanalyst.com

 

[Grey Blade]

Some absolutely damning stats here

How England Threw Away Their World Cup Dream | Opta Analyst

Once again at a major tournament, England took the lead against quality opposition and failed to keep hold of it. This is how they fell short in familiar fashion.

theanalyst.com

This analysis is all well and good but it ignores the fact that Argentina shouldn't have had 11 players on the pitch following the elbow on Anderson, as well as Simeone's multiple fouls during the first 30 mins.
No doubt Argentina were the best team overall but would that have been the same with 10 men?

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

 

[Davalon]

Which bits of English pride do you feel get trodden on?

Here's an experiment for you - go on to a social media platform where many people will see your post, and input 'I'm proud to be English'.

Then await the responses. That will give you a far better rounded answer than I can.

 

[Davalon]

This analysis is all well and good but it ignores the fact that Argentina shouldn't have had 11 players on the pitch following the elbow on Anderson, as well as Simeone's multiple fouls during the first 30 mins.
No doubt Argentina were the best team overall but would that have been the same with 10 men?

The attack on Anderson was laughable but no doubt the excuse will be that the ref didn't see it and VAR didn't deem sufficient for a red card offence.

 

[Grey Blade]

The attack on Anderson was laughable but no doubt the excuse will be that the ref didn't see it and VAR didn't deem sufficient for a red card offence.

It wasn't obvious at normal speed (to me) and with it being so early on I think VAR didn't look at it too much. There's also been a lot of talk of letting things go, which has been good at times, but I don't think that was supposed to include elbows

 

[GrunkyPeep]

Here's an experiment for you - go on to a social media platform where many people will see your post, and input 'I'm proud to be English'.

Then await the responses. That will give you a far better rounded answer than I can.

Social media isn't real. I've stopped basing my opinions and worldviews on the opinions of the dregs of society's social media posts.

 

[LBA_Blade]

It wasn't obvious at normal speed (to me) and with it being so early on I think VAR didn't look at it too much. There's also been a lot of talk of letting things go, which has been good at times, but I don't think that was supposed to include elbows

100% this, although I don’t want VAR stepping in on every decision the big calls need to get right. Also although in general the referee wasn’t the talking point he wasn’t strong enough, he was pointing out the number of fouls committed but didn’t show a yellow for multiple fouls. He missed several yellow cards one example being the trip on Bellingham when he was running towards goal (promising attack)

He also didn’t do anything about dissent from either side and that in general has been poorest part of refereeing at this tournament, both benches in the Premier League would have easily found themselves with at least a yellow, there was constant dissent from every decision by gesture and dancing about, the problem I have is if kids see Messi doing it on TV they think it’s fine for that to happen when they play and when they get a card for it they will start to wonder why. Examples should be set at the highest level

 

[The Fox]

It's hardly surprising we're a nation of losers when there's so much emphasis by so many today to tread on any remote pride in being English.

Outside of sport, any form of patriotism is unacceptable to so many today. The same people who act that way are the same ones who make jokes about getting thrown in jail for being English.

The sad part is that sporting achievement brings people of all backgrounds together. We were stood in Herons near Chaucer last week discussing England's chances with an Asian shop worker, an elderly West Indian, and two excited young lads of Somali heritage.

You make a fair point.

I just think its strange to characterise the countries football supporters on the basis of the actions of a minority of supporters years ago and the nation in general on the performance of the national team in the world Cup to be inaccurate to say the least.

Do we characterise the Dutch or Italians as a nation of hooligan losers ?

If we did we'd be xenophobic at best.

 

[SwissBlade]

The squad choices looked ok until we met one of the better teams, then the absence of those not taken and one or two not used from the bench showed.

Yet again England have been shown to be largely flat track bullies and shit the bed when eventually meeting the bigger boys.

The ultimate flat track bullies this World Cup were surely the French

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Rashford/Watkins/Saka
For Gordon/Kane/Rogers

Would've gave us pace and something for the argies to be mindful of

 

[CrookesBlade]

Here's an experiment for you - go on to a social media platform where many people will see your post, and input 'I'm proud to be English'.

Then await the responses. That will give you a far better rounded answer than I can.

I don’t think it’s a lack of national pride holding back the England team. Sport is probably the most unifying thing there is in this country.

It’s actually quite refreshing to see people put aside their differences to get behind the national team.

 

[CrookesBlade]

This analysis is all well and good but it ignores the fact that Argentina shouldn't have had 11 players on the pitch following the elbow on Anderson, as well as Simeone's multiple fouls during the first 30 mins.
No doubt Argentina were the best team overall but would that have been the same with 10 men?

Ref was woeful. Letting Simeone commit multiple fouls set the tone for a terrible 1st half.

A couple of yellow cards would have set the tone and a game of football might have broken out.

 

[JustLookin]

Ref was woeful. Letting Simeone commit multiple fouls set the tone for a terrible 1st half.

A couple of yellow cards would have set the tone and a game of football might have broken out.

I would have given a straight red for some of the bullshit they were pulling in that 1st half. Let's see how long they would have kept it up after that. The entire world - except obviously the ref - knew that Argentina were going to come out and look to rough the England players up. Needed nipping in the bud at the first opportunity.

 

[Grey Blade]

I would have given a straight red for some of the bullshit they were pulling in that 1st half. Let's see how long they would have kept it up after that. The entire world - except obviously the ref - knew that Argentina were going to come out and look to rough the England players up. Needed nipping in the bud at the first opportunity.

It was very similar to the way they carried on in 1966 - possibly worse back then. We'll never know how they would have reacted to a sending off - if like 66 there would have been 10 or 15 mins added time!

 

[Varkanoid]

It wasn't obvious at normal speed (to me) and with it being so early on I think VAR didn't look at it too much. There's also been a lot of talk of letting things go, which has been good at times, but I don't think that was supposed to include elbows

My son called it I think it happened on 3rd minute ? It was less than 10 mins anyway and he said no way is ref going to send someone off and its way too early for VAR to start looking. Simeone should have gone too in the first half.

Looking at the BBC website this morning when I started work at 7.30am Tuchel claiming he had no regrets about the match and blaming fans its easy to say he was wrong.

1800 comments on the article at the time none that supported him most saying he was wrong to sit back. My take is they scored 3 goals against Egypt and came back to win. The signs were there. The corners/crosses earlier the signs were there. Its rather big headed to think England could hold out for what was it 20 minutes at 1-0. He made the incorrect call. Then when it was too late we were screwed. Its not easy calling it wrong its absolute correct calling it wrong.

Now we have the French to deal with.