The Real Problem at SUFC

[Sean Thornton]

But if we bought any player say one for 4m it’s relative and we would only pay 1.3 upfront or something like that

All football debts are effectively guaranteed so trading as you say is the norm. It's a big merry go round.

 

[super_pig]

maybe i'm being dumb here but i think we'd have been better off spunking the money on this Waghorn bloke than Egan (no matter how good he turns out to be.. early signs are not good).. he has basically replaced Stearman who was one of our stand outs last season . what was the point of that??

 

[Balham]

It was amusing to hear the comentator keep saying Wilder's team of free's, loans and lower league players. He made the Ravanelli comparison and seemed astonished that we seemed proud of spending 4 million.Then I thought about it and outside Egan he is right. As the post above says you pay peanuts and for the most part you get what you get. We have had a few gems in Fleck, O'Connell, Baldock but the signings overall in the last 18 months have been really poor but then only one has cost more than a million quid I believe.

Signings in the last 18 months have all been undisclosed but there have been enough rumours about the fees. I don't think that a single player cost £1m until Egan signed this summer.

January 2017
Hanson undisc. (rumoured to be: £150k)
Carruthers undisc. (rumour: £200k)
Lafferty undisc. (rumour: £50k)
O'Shea undisc (rumour: £26k)

Summer 2017
Baldock undisc. (rumour: £400k)
Evans undisc (rumour: £150k)
Stevens free
Thomas undisc (rumour: £300k)
Stearman undisc (rumour: £550k)
Lundstram undisc (rumour: £750k)
Heneghan undisc (rumour: £400k)
Donaldson undisc (rumour: £50k)

January 2018
L Evans undisc (rumour: £750k)
Holmes undisc (rumour: £400k)
Leonard undisc (rumour: £600k)

Summer 2018
Egan undisc (rumour: £4m)
McGoldrick free
Bryan free

 

[Esablade]

Could have been, I can't quite remember. In terms of Brooks, think we can all agree £12m-£15m.

Hi Barney, don't tell Sean Thornton , he'll have another breakdown cause he doesn't like people reading the recent Court Material...but the 'Approved Judgement' states that £4 million from the Brooks was due to be paid on 1 July 2018.

There is also some interesting stuff about cash flow in the same paragraph here:

'Further, UTB noted that player receipts of £600,000 is very low, not least because it was common ground that there is a strong likelihood of the sale of a player for somewhere between £11m and £15m. Were it to happen, UTB said, the financial position of FC would of course be significantly changed in the short term – though not all of any transfer monies would expect to become payable immediately.

Although UTB did not question the integrity of the current cash flow, it pointed to a change in the figure for player receipts from £3 million in the previous version of the cash flow dated 26 April 2018 to £600,000 in the later version to show how sensitive such cash flows are to the inputs, which are only estimates from time to time. Further, UTB says that the evidence suggests that not all the £2 million to be spent on new players is likely to have to be spent in July 2018: it is common for payment to be deferred or made in instalments.'


So going by that, Wilder had/has £2 million for this window.
I imagine that's correct as that's down in the court papers.

Hope that helps, read more here:

https://shepwedd.com/sites/default/files/UTB v Sheffield final judgment.pdf

 

[RossingtonBlade]

The real problem is Wilder hasn’t brought in anyone to rectify the problems we had last year.

 

[Balham]

Hi Barney, don't tell Sean Thornton , he'll have another breakdown cause he doesn't like people reading the recent Court Material...but the 'Approved Judgement' states that £4 million from the Brooks was due to be paid on 1 July 2018.

There is also some interesting stuff about cash flow in the same paragraph here:

'Further, UTB noted that player receipts of £600,000 is very low, not least because it was common ground that there is a strong likelihood of the sale of a player for somewhere between £11m and £15m. Were it to happen, UTB said, the financial position of FC would of course be significantly changed in the short term – though not all of any transfer monies would expect to become payable immediately.

Although UTB did not question the integrity of the current cash flow, it pointed to a change in the figure for player receipts from £3 million in the previous version of the cash flow dated 26 April 2018 to £600,000 in the later version to show how sensitive such cash flows are to the inputs, which are only estimates from time to time. Further, UTB says that the evidence suggests that not all the £2 million to be spent on new players is likely to have to be spent in July 2018: it is common for payment to be deferred or made in instalments.'


So going by that, Wilder had/has £2 million for this window.
I imagine that's correct as that's down in the court papers.

Hope that helps, read more here:

https://shepwedd.com/sites/default/files/UTB v Sheffield final judgment.pdf

Later in that file the Brooks fee is confirmed at £11.5m guaranteed with £4m due on 1st July and the rest spread over 18 months (likely 3 payments of £2.5m in January 2019, July 2019 and January 2020). There was a further £3.5m in variables should defined conditions be met.

The "UTB says that the evidence suggests that not all the £2 million to be spent on new players is likely to have to be spent in July 2018: it is common for payment to be deferred or made in instalments" bit is disingenuous, Wilder will have been told that his cash budget for this summer was £2m which would have to cover any instalments due (eg the initial £600k for Egan) and up front signing/agent fees. The overall liabilities entered into would be higher than £2m.

 

[Esablade]

Later in that file the Brooks fee is confirmed at £11.5m guaranteed with £4m due on 1st July and the rest spread over 18 months (likely 3 payments of £2.5m in January 2019, July 2019 and January 2020). There was a further £3.5m in variables should defined conditions be met.

The "UTB says that the evidence suggests that not all the £2 million to be spent on new players is likely to have to be spent in July 2018: it is common for payment to be deferred or made in instalments" bit is disingenuous, Wilder will have been told that his cash budget for this summer was £2m which would have to cover any instalments due (eg the initial £600k for Egan) and up front signing/agent fees. The overall liabilities entered into would be higher than £2m.

Yep, so £11.5 million guaranteed with a possible further 3.5 and £4 million upfront...so Barney's 11-15 million was correct.
..and the £4 million Egan has cost 600k so far...

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

One thing that came out on the Sky Red Button commentary yesterday ....

We have just spent or agreed to a package worth £4m for Egan

Over 20 years ago Boro' paid £7m for Ravanelli ..... yes folks, we are over 20 years behind Middlesborough

I actually laughed when they said that.

Middlesbrough as a club can spend copious amounts of money despite Middlesbrough itself being an absolute shit hole. Who the fuck wants to invest in anything in Middlesbrough?!! I wouldn’t let my dog walk round it.

 

[BladeInIreland]

Yep, so £11.5 million guaranteed with a possible further 3.5 and £4 million upfront...so Barney's 11-15 million was correct.
..and the £4 million Egan has cost 600k so far...

I can't see the final fee for Egan being 4mill then. Maybe with add ons.

 

[Chali 2na]

Barney

Wilder has recruited these players, not the board or the owners, wilder. However, this is simplistic as the reality remains that the owners sign off on them.

He’s done so in the belief that the players will improve what we have. Again this doesn’t appear to be the case presently and since xmas last year we’ve struggled to get players to make an impact. All of the signings have been questionable replacements. That said we’ve not seen enough of this seasons recruitment so it’s very early. Perhaps we expect a borbokis or bobby davison impact?

The real problem is Wilder hasn’t brought in anyone to rectify the problems we had last year.

These aren't the problems, they're symptoms of the problem: Wilder hasn't been backed adequately to meet the expectations of the fans.

 

[SwissBlade]

These aren't the problems, they're symptoms of the problem: Wilder hasn't been backed adequately to meet the expectations of the fans.

He never will be!

 

[Maidenhead]

Time for a crowd funding page so all these fans that are desperate to spend can help out?

 

[Chali 2na]

I often wonder how a club that regularly is near the top of the average attendance charts loses so much money and can't afford the players that clubs with much less income take for granted. Every other club must have billionaire backers. It would be interesting to see the loss figures for the rest of the Championship clubs to compare them with our accounts.

Attendances are only relevant when compared to ticket prices.

And you're right, many of the other teams in the league have wealthy (not necessarily billionaires) owners, hence why their willing to spend more than us.

 

[Chali 2na]

He never will be!

Exactly: why should we (reffering to the forum) get hysterical about it?

 

[Esablade]

Time for a crowd funding page so all these fans that are desperate to spend can help out?

..ahh, that ol' chesnut!
Blame the fans!

 

[snootyfenooty]

These aren't the problems, they're symptoms of the problem: Wilder hasn't been backed adequately to meet the expectations of the fans.

With the money spent in the JTW plus this summer Wilder has been backed to the tune of about £7-8m, more if you add on the £5m+ we were ready to hand over for Waghorn. This is more than any manager has been backed in the history of SUFC. Ok you're going to compare it with Forest, Villa etc etc but by our standards it's way over my expectations. What you've neglected to mention is that the JTW expenditure was a waste of fucking money and it doesn't look promising so far with the recent acquisitions.

 

[Maidenhead]

..ahh, that ol' chesnut!
Blame the fans!

I'm not one for allocating blame to anyone for anything.

Just trying to make a positive suggestion

 

[Rodley]

Wilder doesn’t seem to rate Duffy either which is quite incredible after his last two seasons, in fact it’s a complete joke.

He praised him in the most recent interview.

 

[Rodley]

I can't be bothered to go through my personal databases of players, but from the Dutch leagues, off the top of my head: Clint Leemans (Dutch, 22 yrs old), Simon Gustafson (Swedish, 23 yrs old) and Morten Thorsby (Norwegian, 22 yrs old). All speak english, all would fit into our 'culture' and scouting them would cost a return ticket from Hull to Rotterdam (or anywhere). The Dutch blades will vouch for them.

Could be big hits like Pelepessi and Van Aaken

 

[Chali 2na]

With the money spent in the JTW plus this summer Wilder has been backed to the tune of about £7-8m, more if you add on the £5m+ we were ready to hand over for Waghorn. This is more than any manager has been backed in the history of SUFC.

This comment is completely disingenuous.

Not only does it compeltely ignore the massive inflation in transfers since we were last at this level. It also doesn't include the loss of Brooks.

Ok you're going to compare it with Forest, Villa etc etc but by our standards it's way over my expectations. What you've neglected to mention is that the JTW expenditure was a waste of fucking money and it doesn't look promising so far with the recent acquisitions.

It was a waste of money because Wilder had to spread his budget so thinly. We badly needed midfielders yet we could only spend £2m (Which is about half the rate of a decent champ midfielder.) on Evans and Leonard.

He also paid less than £500k for Holmes, again probably less than a 10th of the value of a good Championship attacking midfielder.

Even the best managers regularly make mistakes (buy players that don't work out), and that's without having their hands tied behind their backs.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

.

2018/2019

Although we’ve not yet come to the end of the summer transfer window, as of now we’ve sold Brooks for £12-15m and brought in the following:

Egan - £4.5m (or thereabouts)
Henderson - Loan
Woodburn - Loan
McGoldrick - Free
Bryan - Free

So that’s £7.5-10.5m left and that’s just the Brooks money

Not strictly true, 1 wage out, 5 wages in and signing on / loan fees.

 

[snootyfenooty]

This comment is completely disingenuous.

Not only does it compeltely ignore the massive inflation in transfers since we were last at this level. It also doesn't include the loss of Brooks.

The Brooks money is irrelevant. The transfer budget was set before Brooks was sold and Wilder himself has said the Brooks money hasn't been touched

It was a waste of money because Wilder had to spread his budget so thinly. We badly needed midfielders yet we could only spend £2m (Which is about half the rate of a decent champ midfielder.) on Evans and Leonard.

He also paid less than £500k for Holmes, again probably less than a 10th of the value of a good Championship attacking midfielder.

Even the best managers regularly make mistakes (buy players that don't work out), and that's without having their hands tied behind their backs.

We didn't "badly need midfielders". We needed a midfielder to replace Coutts. It was like buying 3 bangers in a car lot when he could have bought the 17 reg Golf for the same money. Wilder's record in the transfer market is abysmal.

 

[Chali 2na]

The Brooks money is irrelevant. The transfer budget was set before Brooks was sold and Wilder himself has said the Brooks money hasn't been touched

What are you on about? We're a player lighter and Wilder hasn't been allowed to re-invest the money - how is that irrelevant?

I notice you ignored my point about inflation, probably a good move.

We didn't "badly need midfielders". We needed a midfielder to replace Coutts. It was like buying 3 bangers in a car lot when he could have bought the 17 reg Golf for the same money. Wilder's record in the transfer market is abysmal.

I disagree, I felt we needed 2 midfielders at the time and I think we need to replace Evans.

And your example is poor, if an old banger is worth ~£500-1500 and a new Golf is worth £20k+ (Which relatively is simalar to the prices between the players we need and the players we can afford.)

And if you think Wilder's record in transfer market is abysmal then I'd love to know which of our managers in the modern era had a better record.

 

[snootyfenooty]

And if you think Wilder's record in transfer market is abysmal then I'd love to know which of our managers in the modern era had a better record.

The one in 2005/6 when United were in a good position in January and the manager (who shall remain nameless for the sake of peace and quiet) got a bit of cash to spend for the first time ever which saw us through to the Premier league. Unlike the example we are discussing now where we went in the opposite direction, and are still heading that way.

 

[Chali 2na]

The one in 2005/6 when United were in a good position in January and the manager (who shall remain nameless for the sake of peace and quiet) got a bit of cash to spend for the first time ever which saw us through to the Premier league. Unlike the example we are discussing now where we went in the opposite direction, and are still heading that way.

The differnece being that Warnock had one of the best budgets in the division compared to Wilder who has arguably one of the worst.

I'd also point out that at the time (13 years ago) Warnock spent £2.4m on Akinbiyi, Wilder had to spread that same ammount over 2/3 players, despite the fact that players cost way more now than they did then.

 

[snootyfenooty]

The differnece being that Warnock had one of the best budgets in the division compared to Wilder who has arguably one of the worst.

I'd also point out that at the time (13 years ago) Warnock spent £2.4m on Akinbiyi, Wilder had to spread that same ammount over 2/3 players.

You're just displaying your ignorance now. Warnock having one of the best budgets, you're having a laugh. United's promotion team was made up of youth and freebies including Kenny, Geary, Morgan, Short, Bromby, Monty, Jags, Tonge, Quinn and Shipperly who, apart from Kenny at £40k cost the combined sum of fuck all. The signings of Akinbiyi, Webber & Ifill cost about £3m, the bulk of which went on Akinbiyi.

 

[wizadry]

He praised him in the most recent interview.

No good praising him in an interview, get the scouse iniesta on the pitch.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Maidenhead]

What are you on about? We're a player lighter and Wilder hasn't been allowed to re-invest the money - how is that .

How do you know he "hasn't been allowed to re-invest the money"?

Just because he hasn't done doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't have the ability to do so.

 

[Chali 2na]

You're just displaying your ignorance now. Warnock having one of the best budgets, you're having a laugh. United's promotion team was made up of youth and freebies including Kenny, Geary, Morgan, Short, Bromby, Monty, Jags, Tonge, Quinn and Shipperly who, apart from Kenny at £40k cost the combined sum of fuck all. The signings of Akinbiyi, Webber & Ifill cost about £3m, the bulk of which went on Akinbiyi.

Do you ever do research before you post?

Only Preston and Leeds spent more than us in the 05/06 season: we spent more than both Watford and Reading. (The teams that came up with us.)

 

[Chali 2na]

How do you know he "hasn't been allowed to re-invest the money"?

Just because he hasn't done doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't have the ability to do so.

Do you think Wilder is happy with the squad as it is?

If the answer is 'No', then why on earth would he mot improve it if he had the resources available?