SUFC: Series of Fans Forums.

[Santos]

Agree that talking about bad luck constantly is the wrong thing to do. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because it gives everyone an excuse to fail.

Not sure that I agree that we wouldn't have gone up if Ched had just pulled his hamstring though. I think that a big part of the problem was the shock the players felt at one of their mates being sent to prison when they had all assumed he'd get off. The MK Dons match felt almost funereal. The atmosphere around the club wouldn't have been like that if Ched had just got injured.

Agree however if Ched had stayed in and played scrabble on that eventful night in the summer of 2011 instead of going out with Clayton, I'd have been very surprised if he was still at Sheff Utd come April 2012. By KM's own admission he was on huge money. You could argue his (and our) success that season in a twisted way was due to no other club wanting him due to the impending trial.

 

[Booker4]

I can't believe it's a serious issue.

There were three consecutive (convoluted) questions basically aiming for "Adkins Out" but no-one asked it outright.

Maybe too strong but I think it would've sounded daft. With all the talk about youth it was clear there is long term thinking going and the answer was strongly implicit. After it had been strongly explicit not so long ago.

Adkins has answered it after SJH.

McCabe answered it in his interview.

Cheers mate for answering. It just seems the Prince and McCabe are at odds over it and surely if the Prince doesn't get his way he'll be off. Seems Jimbob is almost certain to leave and if he goes then surely its a sign that the Prince is wanting out or is just going to put nothing in.

 

[BushBlade]

Cheers mate for answering. It just seems the Prince and McCabe are at odds over it and surely if the Prince doesn't get his way he'll be off. Seems Jimbob is almost certain to leave and if he goes then surely its a sign that the Prince is wanting out or is just going to put nothing in.

Not necessarily. Jim's been ill and perhaps has found the job much harder than he expected. He may have just had enough.

 

[Champagneblade]

Not so clear why this Techical Board is being held up as a Knight on white charger.

This type of Board caused a lot of issues at Forest.

Isn't having two owners convoluted enough?

Who is on it? Adkins, Binnion (who Adkins is in some sense, the Boss of), the Finance guy (who I assume does not profess to be too football savvy) and Carl Sheiber (another Scarborough guy with no football know how. Was he on contract watch in the time of McDonald?)

I think DOF is a bit of a cop out for simply having the wrong board.

If you did have such a role then someone like Graham Taylor would seem to be a sensible guy.

Alternatively what about someone like Agana? Ex-footballer, former Blades favorite but also known to be an intelligent guy. I think he's involved in Universities at the moment.

Either way I don't say this Techical Board working. Just adding more red tape.

 

[Booker4]

Not necessarily. Jim's been ill and perhaps has found the job much harder than he expected. He may have just had enough.

Hope he stays Bush. I hear McCabe said he's possible going to go to Utah or something like that. Jim's openness with the fans is about the only decent thing going for us at times as fans!

 

[BushBlade]

Hope he stays Bush. I hear McCabe said he's possible going to go to Utah or something like that. Jim's openness with the fans is about the only decent thing going for us at times as fans!

Other than say stuff on social media, I'm not entirely sure what he did. Seemed a nice bloke by all accounts but in a few years I'll probably struggle to even remember him.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

McCabe: "Hey, Nige. You know you've been banging on about wanting 50% academy products in the first team? Well, up that to 80%. Oh, and stay positive."

 

[BeatleBlade]

Seen a bit on here about his comments on Turnbull. I saw the comments first on twitter, can anyone who was actually there clarify if he was really that negative about him when he was there. I was surprised he was so critical of this years transfers, it's pretty obvious Adkins has little room for maneuver.

 

[Booker4]

I'll never forget Jim when he does move on. I don't recall anyone behind the scenes at United actually talking to the fans on a regular basis. Its why I'm desperate for United to have a fans representative on the board that represents the fans and preferably has an equal vote in important decision making. I know that people like Dave McCarthy are United fans but we don't get to hear as fans the decision making process or what the hell is going on when you hear rumours which do sometimes appear to be true. At least the fans forums show an improvement on this type of thing.

 

[carpmandanw]

Has someone connected to the Lane said this, Sheffielder ?

Yes. KMc

 

[carpmandanw]

Seen a bit on here about his comments on Turnbull. I saw the comments first on twitter, can anyone who was actually there clarify if he was really that negative about him when he was there. I was surprised he was so critical of this years transfers, it's pretty obvious Adkins has little room for maneuver.

He basically said - Turnbull's CV is great, but he has yet to show this for us.

 

[Darthblade]

Question of the night was undoubtedly "Why don't we have any goal music or replays?"

Glad to know we're really getting to the crux of problems behind our current plight..

I can answer that one for Kev ...... we didn't bloody need them until a few weeks ago !!

UTB & FTP

 

[TJB.]

Seen a bit on here about his comments on Turnbull. I saw the comments first on twitter, can anyone who was actually there clarify if he was really that negative about him when he was there. I was surprised he was so critical of this years transfers, it's pretty obvious Adkins has little room for maneuver.

I'd have quite liked to have come back to the point about Turnbull, but as has been mentioned, another question comes in and the tide of the conversation moves on. I don't want to read too much into it, but going by his tone, he didn't seem too impressed thus far. I wanted to ask in more detail what he's actually been doing and what progress he's made in identifying targets for us.

It could be that he's actually working quite hard and that it's just he's not brought anyone in for us yet - hence the 'not seen it yet' comments, but Kev didn't elaborate, the issue wasn't raised again and we're left with another fucking question from an event where we were supposed to be getting answers.

 

[Sean Thornton]

As a first time attender of a fan's forum I listened attentively to Kevin McCabe and the fairly predictable manner in which he responded to questions from the floor.

Amongst many interesting questions raised, the one that rang heavily in my mind was that of the sale of Kevin McDonald. McCabe talked of contractual clauses that meant we were boxed into a corner where McDonald's sale was concerned. Does this suggest that the previous incumbent responsible for negotiating contracts was lead a merry dance by McDonald's agent? Was the club's employee responsible for contract negotiation at the time possessed of such poor ability that a clause was allowed to be included meaning that McDonald could leave SUFC for such an appallingly low figure? Contract negotiation is always an intense part of securing any player's signature, but the inclusion of this clause revealed such poor negotiating skill that I'm massively surprised that it hasn't been questioned before.

Part of my job is adopt a forensic approach to contract negotiation. Something as damaging as the inclusion of a clause designed to let a key player leave SUFC, once a specific figure was flagged up by a competing club in the same division as SUFC, is something I'd fight tooth and nail to make sure was not included in an agreement. We appear to have shot a sizeable hole in our foot over this. Presumably there exists other player agreements that include similarly damaging clauses?

If the club is so poorly served in this department I'd offer my services to SUFC in exchange for a negotiated financial return.

But if the player and his agent insist on a certain figure for a buy out clause or whatever, and the club won't agree, no new contract possibly no fee when the player leaves at the end of the contract.

It's not as straightforward as saying whoever did the contracts wasn't competent without knowing the full story.

 

[The Crab]

But if the player and his agent insist on a certain figure for a buy out clause or whatever, and the club won't agree, no new contract possibly no fee when the player leaves at the end of the contract.

It's not as straightforward as saying whoever did the contracts wasn't competent without knowing the full story.

If it's a player who's going to really improve your team, surely if such a clause was make or break you'd take a punt?

 

[Sean Thornton]

If it's a player who's going to really improve your team, surely if such a clause was make or break you'd take a punt?

Although personally ive never been his biggest fan, McDonald at that time fitted into that category.
We've seen since how mercenary he is and obviously chickens will come home to roost with that sort of deal but I fail to see how you can make a player on the up sign what you want him to sign when he holds the aces.

 

[The Crab]

Although personally ive never been his biggest fan, McDonald at that time fitted into that category.
We've seen since how mercenary he is and obviously chickens will come home to roost with that sort of deal but I fail to see how you can make a player on the up sign what you want him to sign when he holds the aces.

I agree, it seems to me that in my time watching football (first season proper was 81) there has been a seismic shift in power between the club and the player. We've ended up in a situation when often, average players become rich beyond the means of what you or I could imagine. Yet players from way back when usually end up back working with the rest of us.

So IMHO, sometimes you have no choice but to agree to these sort of contracts, because if you don't then your competitors will, of that you can be sure.

 

[BushBlade]

Although personally ive never been his biggest fan, McDonald at that time fitted into that category.
We've seen since how mercenary he is and obviously chickens will come home to roost with that sort of deal but I fail to see how you can make a player on the up sign what you want him to sign when he holds the aces.

Particularly if you're asking him to take a pay cut, which was the rumour at the time.

 

[Darthblade]

People mentioning Dooley and a DOF in the same sentence are way off the mark
Dooley was no DOF he was someone with a vast amount of football knowledge who was on the board
he was more a of a Chief Exec but without the financial qualifications
I honestly dont think you need a DOF to get out of L1

Agreed ..... to get out of L1 you need a consistent, strong squad with some genuine pace, decent size players and players who can actually score goals ......

UTB & FTP

 

[BushBlade]

He basically said - Turnbull's CV is great, but he has yet to show this for us.

It's alway some other fucker's fault.

 

[Sean Thornton]

It's alway some other fucker's fault.

Turnbull immediately goes from a useless **** to a Blades legend hung out to dry by Kev

 

[Woodwardfan]

Scunthorpe are above us in the league atm. I know very little about their current players. Was it thanks to Turnbull's recommendations playing a large part in Scunthorpe doing better than expected?

Adkins mentioned Scunthorpe to us last July and said 'they'd be in the mix' and had signed some good players; he said it straight after a mention that certain clubs make a special effort/investment as a sort of calculated gamble to go up in a particular season. I took it that Scunny were one of those and they sacked their manager during the season because it wasn't happening; like us they are tantalysingly close though.

On reflection I reckon our club made it's big 'gamble' in the JTW 2015 and that's why Adkins estimated last July that we were the 6/7th highest budget in the league.; that shocked us at the time but on reflection he meant 'new money' and there was always the 40 existing squad to pay wages for.

Signing Brayford, Done, Coutts, Freeman and Wallace was huge really and I'm afraid the gamble didn't pay off, Clough lost a lot of credibility with the board no doubt because they had backed him big time ( he had spent a lot in the previous summer too).

Maybe they pointed that out at the end of the season and maybe Clough didn't like being reminded that he had blown a massive budget which was supposed to get us out of League 1 and what was he going to do differently. I guess McCabe was not too impressed with the last Head Scout either!

To be fair to Turnbull, the only signings since he joined us have been Hammond and Baptiste. We all presume there has been a funding issue and with a wage bill of some £7m or thereabouts, is there any wonder why ( see thread re 'Paul Coutts the enigma')?

 

[Silent Blade]

To be fair to Turnbull, the only signings since he joined us have been Hammond and Baptiste. We all presume there has been a funding issue and with a wage bill of some £7m or thereabouts, is there any wonder why ( see thread re 'Paul Coutts the enigma')?

I assumed Adkins had already decided he wants Hammond without needing Turnbull to scout his displays for this season (must be the u21s matches as I don't think he played in a Premiership match?)

 

[finlaytheblade]

Adkins mentioned Scunthorpe to us last July and said 'they'd be in the mix' and had signed some good players; he said it straight after a mention that certain clubs make a special effort/investment as a sort of calculated gamble to go up in a particular season. I took it that Scunny were one of those and they sacked their manager during the season because it wasn't happening; like us they are tantalysingly close though.

On reflection I reckon our club made it's big 'gamble' in the JTW 2015 and that's why Adkins estimated last July that we were the 6/7th highest budget in the league.; that shocked us at the time but on reflection he meant 'new money' and there was always the 40 existing squad to pay wages for.Signing Brayford, Done, Coutts, Freeman and Wallace was huge really and I'm afraid the gamble didn't pay off, Clough lost a lot of credibility with the board no doubt because they had backed him big time ( he had spent a lot in the previous summer too). Maybe they pointed that out at the end of the season and maybe Clough didn't like being reminded that he had blown a massive budget which was supposed to get us out of League 1 and what was he going to do differently. I guess McCabe was not too impressed with the last Head Scout either!

To be fair to Turnbull, the only signings since he arrived have been Hammond and Baptiste. We all presume there has been a funding issue and with a wage bill of some £7m or thereabouts, is there any wonder why ( see thread re 'Paul Coutts the enigma')?

I think that's a good analysis Woody I was at that meeting as I was last night.Scunthorpe have a chairman,not without money (new stadium on its way )
All this talk about putting all our eggs in the academy basket is tosh,no way will we ever ( has any club ? ) build a successful team from the academy alone. Adkins has mentioned 50% and that will not be easy to acheave , it seems that a lot of fans like to beleave we are trying to do it on the cheap
no way will they do that and Mccabe & Co know it. Experienced players along side youth is the way we will go , ( in my opinion ).when I say experience it's not about. age it's about hunger and drive. A lot of fans don't rate Hammond ,I accept he hasn't had a great season but if Adkins feels he is what's required to help bring on the young players ( also have the drive to get promotion ) we have to let him get on with it.Ok ,he's been on good money but at 33 he won't command big wages especially in league one..The retained list will be very interesting judging by some of the comments made by Mccabe last night.
!

 

[Booker4]

I think that's a good analysis Woody I was at that meeting as I was last night.Scunthorpe have a chairman,not without money (new stadium on its way )
All this talk about putting all our eggs in the academy basket is tosh,no way will we ever ( has any club ? ) build a successful team from the academy alone. Adkins has mentioned 50% and that will not be easy to acheave , it seems that a lot of fans like to beleave we are trying to do it on the cheap
no way will they do that and Mccabe & Co know it. Experienced players along side youth is the way we will go , ( in my opinion ).when I say experience it's not about. age it's about hunger and drive. A lot of fans don't rate Hammond ,I accept he hasn't had a great season but if Adkins feels he is what's required to help bring on the young players ( also have the drive to get promotion ) we have to let him get on with it.Ok ,he's been on good money but at 33 he won't command big wages especially in league one..The retained list will be very interesting judging by some of the comments made by Mccabe last night.
!

Can I ask what McCabe was saying on the retain list?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

He basically said - Turnbull's CV is great, but he has yet to show this for us.

He did. But it's the implied because...

(1) he's not showed he's up to the job - I think this option is extremely unlikely as it's KM undermining Adkins' team in public

(2) he's not had chance because we're still clearing out - and that's frustrating

(3) he's spotted a few but they haven't agreed to come our way yet.

(4) other

 

[Sean Thornton]

He did. But it's the implied because...

(1) he's not showed he's up to the job - I think this option is extremely unlikely as it's KM undermining Adkins' team in public

(2) he's not had chance because we're still clearing out - and that's frustrating

(3) he's spotted a few but they haven't agreed to come our way yet.

(4) other

One poster (nopigfansintown?) suggests that we already have players lined up.

(Apologies if it's not you)

 

[itsinyerblood]

But if the player and his agent insist on a certain figure for a buy out clause or whatever, and the club won't agree, no new contract possibly no fee when the player leaves at the end of the contract.

It's not as straightforward as saying whoever did the contracts wasn't competent without knowing the full story.

Surely it's the responsibility of the contract negotiator to describe the realities of what the club are prepared to commit to. If the wage is acceptable, if it's been confirmed that the player wants to play for SUFC, and if the variety of clauses that an agent will attempt to include are, in the main, acceptable to the club, then this is where the role of contract negotiator needs to convince the agent that if a fee is agreed that ensures a player can leave the club at some future point, it's at this point that the negotiator needs to ensure that all parties appreciate that it's a realistic requirement to insist that a buy-out clause should reflect an appropriate valuation of the player.

Of course it would include tough negotiation, I wouldn't expect less. I also think it's beholden on the club to persuade player and agent that the player wants to come to SUFC because they are an ambitious club with the nous and capability to insist upon this type of clause. I'm not suggesting it would be easy, but we appear to have a culture that accepts that we should accept a fee that is unrepresentative of the player's current worth. I suppose it depends on whether you feel this is acceptable or not? If an agent insists on something that's going to deprive SUFC of a realistic fee, then this is where a negotiator's skill is called into play. I'm not so foolish as to not recognise that so much depends on how much the club wants the player, but doesn't this work in reverse? Isn't it a fair ask that we expect a player to sign for us knowing we expect a realistic return when the day arrives that the player decides to seek pastures new?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Surely it's the responsibility of the contract negotiator to describe the realities of what the club are prepared to commit to. If the wage is acceptable, if it's been confirmed that the player wants to play for SUFC, and if the variety of clauses that an agent will attempt to include are, in the main, acceptable to the club, then this is where the role of contract negotiator needs to convince the agent that if a fee is agreed that ensures a player can leave the club at some future point, it's at this point that the negotiator needs to ensure that all parties appreciate that it's a realistic requirement to insist that a buy-out clause should reflect an appropriate valuation of the player.

Of course it would include tough negotiation, I wouldn't expect less. I also think it's beholden on the club to persuade player and agent that the player wants to come to SUFC because they are an ambitious club with the nous and capability to insist upon this type of clause. I'm not suggesting it would be easy, but we appear to have a culture that accepts that we should accept a fee that is unrepresentative of the player's current worth. I suppose it depends on whether you feel this is acceptable or not? If an agent insists on something that's going to deprive SUFC of a realistic fee, then this is where a negotiator's skill is called into play. I'm not so foolish as to not recognise that so much depends on how much the club wants the player, but doesn't this work in reverse? Isn't it a fair ask that we expect a player to sign for us knowing we expect a realistic return when the day arrives that the player decides to seek pastures new?

I'm aware of fact that negotiations are necessary. Also that the players agent will be looking to persuade the club to come around to his way of thinking. He will be as confident as you in getting a result for his client.
I'd imagine the clubs offer is on the table. The contract negotiator on the players side then says we'll accept that but we want a buy out clause of x or its no deal because we'll get that elsewhere. You can be the best negotiator in the world but if the player digs his heels in there's nowhere to go.

The club looks to strengthen their position as does the player. In McDonalds position, the ball was always in his court as his career was on the way up and he would be well aware of his importance in the managers plans. As would his agent. Who may well be a better negotiator than you in some cases.

As for me thinking your "example" of the clubs actions with regard to contracts is "acceptable", give your head a shake. Do you believe it's something the club don't care about or are just incompetent and whatever the answer, how do you know? It's a ridiculous assertion that any club, even our own basket case, would deliberately adopt or maintain a culture that would have no financial benefit whatsoever.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Surely it's the responsibility of the contract negotiator to describe the realities of what the club are prepared to commit to. If the wage is acceptable, if it's been confirmed that the player wants to play for SUFC, and if the variety of clauses that an agent will attempt to include are, in the main, acceptable to the club, then this is where the role of contract negotiator needs to convince the agent that if a fee is agreed that ensures a player can leave the club at some future point, it's at this point that the negotiator needs to ensure that all parties appreciate that it's a realistic requirement to insist that a buy-out clause should reflect an appropriate valuation of the player.

Of course it would include tough negotiation, I wouldn't expect less. I also think it's beholden on the club to persuade player and agent that the player wants to come to SUFC because they are an ambitious club with the nous and capability to insist upon this type of clause. I'm not suggesting it would be easy, but we appear to have a culture that accepts that we should accept a fee that is unrepresentative of the player's current worth. I suppose it depends on whether you feel this is acceptable or not? If an agent insists on something that's going to deprive SUFC of a realistic fee, then this is where a negotiator's skill is called into play. I'm not so foolish as to not recognise that so much depends on how much the club wants the player, but doesn't this work in reverse? Isn't it a fair ask that we expect a player to sign for us knowing we expect a realistic return when the day arrives that the player decides to seek pastures new?

Release clauses are commonplace, and just another aspect of the negotiations aren't they?

The most high profile recent example is probably Suarez's £40m release clause with Arsenal then offering £40 000 001.

KM did mention in passing that an agent was/is currently trying to insert a release clause in a young player's contract against the player's will. (Anyone else confirm I heard this right?)

He made the further point that some agents will engineer moves - I think as the percentages the players and agents get are part of the way they (the player and the agent) acquire wealth.

Before everyone hates on agents the Secret Footballer writes that different agents have different priorities. What's being described here are the out and out mercenaries. Plenty will opt for first team football, or whatever their player is looking for.

(Incidentally the way I read it the Secret Footballer also has very clear opinions about Suarez being held by Liverpool, his biting antics, and getting the move to Barcelona.)