Stefan Scougall

[JJ Sefton]

That's all well and good if you think the aim of life is to have an infinity of options.

Options are pretty brilliant though. Thanks to the internet I am now just a few clicks away from the music of Son House, Bessie Smith, Blind Boy Fuller...do you have any idea how hard that stuff was track down even when I was a kid? I used to scour the back pages of Record Collector for Blind Lemon Jefferson LPs I could afford; there weren't many for the money I made washing cars. Now I have options and, yes, I want more.

 

[UnitedBlade]

I don't think he would to be honest.

Clough was asked about him on RS last week sometime (could have been FH or before the match on Saturday, can't remember exactly) and he made it quite clear that he sees Diego coming through next year and not being extended this season due to the injury he suffered.
He might make some cameo off the bench appearances but, unless NC was spinning a yarn, I don't think he'll be starting him.

Yes possibly on the bench and possibly coming on.

It'll be interesting to see if he plays 90 minutes against Germany tonight.

 

[Darren]

Options are pretty brilliant though. Thanks to the internet I am now just a few clicks away from the music of Son House, Bessie Smith, Blind Boy Fuller...do you have any idea how hard that stuff was track down even when I was a kid? I used to scour the back pages of Record Collector for Blind Lemon Jefferson LPs I could afford; there weren't many for the money I made washing cars. Now I have options and, yes, I want more.

I agree with you on that. I am the same when it comes to obscure second hand books. I am currently reading The German Social Democrats in Opposition 1949-60 published by the University of Oklahoma Press in 1982; next up is a biography of Martov. Both courtesy of Abebooks.co.uk.

But that's not really what I am getting at. We are discussing people like Wayne Rooney or Rupert Murdoch whose current wealth is such that they literally can do whatever they want whenever they want without worrying about the cost. What motivates them to accumulate more and more wealth. I do think it is primarily status.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Thanks for the homily, but that wasn't really the point I was making. Perhaps I should have said that having more money doesn't give you more time within which to use the stuff your money buys you.

Darren, it wasn't intended as a homily, just as a factual observation of what some people are facing. As you wrote, perhaps you should have said.....

 

[JJ Sefton]

I agree with you on that. I am the same when it comes to obscure second hand books. I am currently reading The German Social Democrats in Opposition 1949-60 published by the University of Oklahoma Press in 1982; next up is a biography of Martov. Both courtesy of Abebooks.co.uk.

But that's not really what I am getting at. We are discussing people like Wayne Rooney or Rupert Murdoch whose current wealth is such that they literally can do whatever they want whenever they want without worrying about the cost. What motivates them to accumulate more and more wealth. I do think it is primarily status.

Put yourself in Wayne Rooney's boots for a second. You being in the Manchester United team is going to generate £X million extra turnover for them (an amount which has rocketed as the ability for people all over the world to pay for Premiership football has spread) above what they would have if you weren't in the team. Why wouldn't you want to try and capture as much of that extra turnover, your added value, as possible? Or are you arguing for a greater share of income going to capital (the Glazers) rather than labour (Rooney)?

Abebooks is one of my favourite sites too.

 

[alcoblade]

That's all well and good if you think the aim of life is to have an infinity of options.

Everyone has the same amount of time. If you have 6 Maseratis and 4 yachts, you can only drive 1 or sail on 1 at a time. The point of having the others is to say "look at me, I have 6 Maseratis and 4 yachts".

our lass Is proud of us having 4 shitters in the house. I always remind her that sadly, you can only lay one cable at a time.

UTB

 

[JJ Sefton]

our lass Is proud of us having 4 shitters in the house. I always remind her that sadly, you can only lay one cable at a time.

UTB

I remember my very left wing grandad opining on the inequities of the Poll Tax to my dad; "But how is it fair that a bloke with four toilets should pay the same as a little old lady with one?". As my dad rather patiently explained, the bloke can;t shit in all four toilets at once.

 

[Darren]

Put yourself in Wayne Rooney's boots for a second. You being in the Manchester United team is going to generate £X million extra turnover for them (an amount which has rocketed as the ability for people all over the world to pay for Premiership football has spread) above what they would have if you weren't in the team. Why wouldn't you want to try and capture as much of that extra turnover, your added value, as possible? Or are you arguing for a greater share of income going to capital (the Glazers) rather than labour (Rooney)?

Abebooks is one of my favourite sites too.

I am not arguing about abstract justice - i.e. who deserves the money - but about why Rooney should care about getting the extra cash. There may well be a part of it that is him saying "why should those bastards get the money I earned for them". My point is that his motive is not "my life would be so much better if I had that 9th sports car and I really need an extra £xK per week to buy that".

 

[Darren]

our lass Is proud of us having 4 shitters in the house. I always remind her that sadly, you can only lay one cable at a time.

UTB

I have three toilets now in a house where only 2 people live. We do have 2 cats though, so we are thinking of training them up.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I am not arguing about abstract justice - i.e. who deserves the money - but about why Rooney should care about getting the extra cash. There may well be a part of it that is him saying "why should those bastards get the money I earned for them". My point is that his motive is not "my life would be so much better if I had that 9th sports car and I really need an extra £xK per week to buy that".

He has an agent whose job it is to spot the extra turnover he generates and say "Now then Wayne, that was generated by you, your labour, why should it line pockets of a capitalist like Glazer?"

 

[Darren]

He has an agent whose job it is to spot the extra turnover he generates and say "Now then Wayne, that was generated by you, your labour, why should it line pockets of a capitalist like Glazer?"

Indeed. It's interesting that you take a Marxist position on this. Personal motivation is irrelevant, it's all about labour depriving capitalists of their surplus value and the system is such that they are compelled to do this.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Indeed. It's interesting that you take a Marxist position on this. Personal motivation is irrelevant, it's all about labour depriving capitalists of their surplus value and the system is such that they are compelled to do this.

The language is deliberately Marxist but the analysis is marginal, no crackpot notion of surplus value here. Just as the capitalist Glazers couldn't make money without Wayne Rooney's labour, so Wayne Rooney couldn't make money without their capital. The question is one of what the marginal product of each input is because that will equal the wage(return to labour)/return to capital.

 

[Darren]

The phrasing is deliberately Marxist but the analysis is marginal, no crackpot notion of surplus value here. Just as the capitalist Glazers couldn't make money without Wayne Rooney's labour, so Wayne Rooney couldn't make money without their capital. The question is one of what the marginal product of each input is because that will equal the wage(return to labour)/return to capital.

Whatever you call it, it's the same argument - that people are compelled by the logic of the system to behave in a certain way. You almost appear to be denying that Rooney could even possibly say "you know what, £200K a week is enough for me, I really don't want anymore and I really don't give a flying fuck if the Glazers get money that I could have got"

 

[JJ Sefton]

Whatever you call it, it's the same argument - that people are compelled by the logic of the system to behave in a certain way. You almost appear to be denying that Rooney could even possibly say "you know what, £200K a week is enough for me, I really don't want anymore and I really don't give a flying fuck if the Glazers get money that I could have got"

He could, but I don't think its too likely. If Wayne Rooney thought the money he didn't take would go to homeless kids or a retirement home for prostitutes he might be willing to give it up, but to give it up to buy another yacht for Glazer?

Values are subjective.

 

[Darren]

He could, but I don't think its too likely. If Wayne Rooney thought the money he didn't take would go to homeless kids or a retirement home for prostitutes he might be willing to give it up, but to give it up to buy another yacht for Glazer?

Values are subjective.

Indeed they are. There is no absolute morality, which I think we had a long discussion about at one point

 

[Highbury_Blade]

He could, but I don't think its too likely. If Wayne Rooney thought the money he didn't take would go to homeless kids or a retirement home for prostitutes he might be willing to give it up, but to give it up to buy another yacht for Glazer?

Values are subjective.

He could however think of the poor cunts who have to shell out more for season tickets to fund his and his teammates lifestyles.

 

[Darren]

He could however think of the poor cunts who have to shell out more for season tickets to fund his and his teammates lifestyles.

But the logic of the system is such that everyone involved - whether they be owners or players - will seek to extract as much wealth as they can. The wealth they can extract will depend on the willingness of the "poor cunts" to pay out. No-one forces said "poor cunts" to do so.

You appear to be suggesting that football should essentially be run on non-commercial public service lines. Walthy will 'ave you....

 

[JJ Sefton]

He could however think of the poor cunts who have to shell out more for season tickets to fund his and his teammates lifestyles.

To what effect? If Rooney doesn't take the pay rise it's not going back to John Bobbins from Chorlton, it ends up in Glazer's dividend.

 

[Darren]

To what effect? If Rooney doesn't take the pay rise it's not going back to John Bobbins from Chorlton, it ends up in Glazer's dividend.

Not necessarily.

If the top players collectively said "we are going to take a pay cut of £xK on the basis that 80% of said cut goes in ticket price reductions", I rather think the clubs would snap them up.

It's not going to happen of course, but it is not theoretically impossible.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Not necessarily.

If the top players collectively said "we are going to take a pay cut of £xK on the basis that 80% of said cut goes in ticket price reductions", I rather think the clubs would snap them up.

It's not going to happen of course, but it is not theoretically impossible.

I think you might find replica shirts, booking fees, and hot dogs in the ground all becoming rather more expensive.

If people are paying what they're currently paying to watch Manchester United (which they must be) that suggests a willingness to pay that much. Owners won't have to work too hard to cater to that willingness.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

To what effect? If Rooney doesn't take the pay rise it's not going back to John Bobbins from Chorlton, it ends up in Glazer's dividend.

I'm taking about the effect of the payrise.

Rooney's payrise (And the domino effect on the rest of the teams salaries) will cause next season's ticket prices to rise.

 

[Darren]

I think you might find replica shirts, booking fees, and hot dogs in the ground all becoming rather more expensive.

It's actually interesting that football isn't run on a pure free market basis.

When demand for tickets vastly outstrips supply (common in big games), clubs don't just charge a market clearing price. They charge an arguably "affordable" price and operate complicated "loyalty" schemes to distribute tickets. That leads to a secondary market in tickets where "loyal" fans buy tickets and then flog them on for a profit at the market price.

If clubs did charge market clearing prices there would be outrage about the clubs ripping off loyal fans etc etc, which is presumably why they don't do it.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I'm taking about the effect of the payrise.

Rooney's payrise (And the domino effect on the rest of the teams salaries) will cause next season's ticket prices to rise.

And if people aren't willing to pay it they will fall the season after that. If they are then Wayne Rooney is providing summat that folk are willing to pay for.

 

[Darren]

I'm taking about the effect of the payrise.

Rooney's payrise (And the domino effect on the rest of the teams salaries) will cause next season's ticket prices to rise.

The free market answer if that if fans then stayed away because of the ticket price rise, then players wages would fall.

It's the fans' fault.

 

[JJ Sefton]

It's actually interesting that football isn't run on a pure free market basis.

When demand for tickets vastly outstrips supply (common in big games), clubs don't just charge a market clearing price. They charge an arguably "affordable" price and operate complicated "loyalty" schemes to distribute tickets. That leads to a secondary market in tickets where "loyal" fans buy tickets and then flog them on for a profit at the market price.

If clubs did charge market clearing prices there would be outrage about the clubs ripping off loyal fans etc etc, which is presumably why they don't do it.

All of which fits with a 'free' market; that is simply one free of coercion.

It's an interesting thing with pricing. One bloke sits on the Kop who would be willing to pay £40 max, the bloke sitting next to him would pay £30 max. The club would like to charge bloke 1 £40 and bloke 2 £30 for a revenue of £70. But they don't know which is which and have to charge the same for both. Charge £40 and they sell one seat for a revenue of £40. So they end up charging less than £30, say £29, and get a revenue of £58.

 

[JJ Sefton]

The free market answer if that if fans then stayed away because of the ticket price rise, then players wages would fall.

It's the fans' fault.

Why does it have to be anyone's 'fault'?

 

[Darren]

All of which fits with a 'free' market; that is simply one free of coercion.

What you mean if I don't pay a debt, no-one is going to coerce me into paying it?

Great!

 

[Darren]

Why does it have to be anyone's 'fault'?

"Responsibility" or "cause" if you prefer.

 

[JJ Sefton]

What you mean if I don't pay a debt, no-one is going to coerce me into paying it?

Great!

Were you coerced into taking on the debt?

 

[JJ Sefton]

"Responsibility" or "cause" if you prefer.

Either way, still wrong. You could just as easily say it's Rooney's 'fault' for playing to such a high standard people are willing to shell out lots of money to watch him.