Sander Berge Haters

[Revolution]

I made this comparison before. He was a bit like Coutts, not that they were playing well and people just couldn't see it, they weren't playing that well but you could just see there was a decent player there who had not quite found a role in the team.

Coutts was not trying very hard too, as he admitted afterwards.

 

[LJBlade]

Presumably because they are the exception and not the rule.

And Coutts had a sustained 12 month spell of really good form. Berge has played 2 very good games back to back. Very encouraging, but let’s not get carried away just yet.

There have been several mitigating circumstances to explain Berge's form with us so far. The fact that he's now looking much better having had a consistent run in a team full of confidence further backs that up. Some of us could see that and said so at the time. Others decided to focus on the negatives such as how many games it had been since we'd won with him in the team or how many games it had been since he scored a goal.

 

[Revolution]

There have been several mitigating circumstances to explain Berge's form with us so far. The fact that he's now looking much better having had a consistent run in a team full of confidence further backs that up. Some of us could see that and said so at the time. Others decided to focus on the negatives such as how many games it had been since we'd won with him in the team or how many games it had been since he scored a goal.

Some of you are blind squirrels with nuts. Most of these people have been telling me that Burke and McBurnie will come good.

As for the Berge bingo, that applies to everyone else as well.

 

[LJBlade]

Some of you are blind squirrels with nuts. Most of these people have been telling me that Burke and McBurnie will come good.

As for the Berge bingo, that applies to everyone else as well.

What have Burke and McBurnie got to do with this discussion? Sounds as though you're trying to deflect from the point, instead of discussing it.

The fact that Berge is now looking much better and some of us having been saying for a while that there is definitely a player in there suggests that we aren't the blind ones.

I've no idea what you mean about the Berge Bingo, it sounds like something you'd make up to avoid admitting that you could be wrong.

 

[Badger Blade]

It's taken a long while for him to show us what he's made of but this is the prime opportunity for him to do it, to try and help seal promotion at the first time of asking. From his own perspective, he'll either be pivotal to taking us back up and being a key player in the Premier League, or if we don't go up, he puts himself in the shop window for a move and we can get our money back. Swap with Wolves for MGW permanent? Sanderos Bergão?

He's far better in a more advanced role as we saw against Blackburn and he's even better when he gets a bit riled up, never thought I'd see the day! I'd been a bit critical of what he'd delivered before now but as with many of our signings over the past couple of seasons, we'd brought them in without any idea of where to put them or what to do with them.

While the failed experiments like Callum Robinson, Luke Freeman, Oli Burke, Ravel Morrison, Jack Rodwell, Richairo Zivkovic and Lys Mousset have been consigned to the bin, Sander is still here and has finally carved a bit of a niche for himself.

One swallow doesn't make a summer but he just needs to carry on as he is doing and we've got a player who's totally different to what anyone else has at this level. This is his time to shine.

 

[Gavlar]

I'm pleased Berge has improved, and I have slagged him off on this site before, but I don't hate him.

I just think an international player who cost £20 million who has played in the champions league should be doing much better
than he has in the majority of his blades career. He should be one of the best midfielders in the championship. He is starting to show
that class. I really hope it continues and he stays fit and hungry. UTB.

 

[BobblesBlade]

Finally saw him have a decent game. Hope he gets better better.

 

[alcoblade]

There have been several mitigating circumstances to explain Berge's form with us so far. The fact that he's now looking much better having had a consistent run in a team full of confidence further backs that up. Some of us could see that and said so at the time. Others decided to focus on the negatives such as how many games it had been since we'd won with him in the team or how many games it had been since he scored a goal.

The bloke has had two years and earned about £4,000,000 pounds on top of the £25,000,000 that we shelled out for him. There's been practically zero in return, despite horoscopes suggesting it will come good in future.

I'm sorry if the expectation of a modicum of delivery offended those with the ability to see what a supreme talent he might be when the sun, the moon and the starts lined up - but the reality is the criticism was entirely valid. When appraising current performance, I couldn't give a flying fuck about how good someone might be if circumstances were different.

He's been great in the last few games, and we're all hopeful that it's all finally clicked in to place. That's all that matters now.

 

[alcoblade]

I'm pleased Berge has improved, and I have slagged him off on this site before, but I don't hate him.

I just think an international player who cost £20 million who has played in the champions league should be doing much better
than he has in the majority of his blades career. He should be one of the best midfielders in the championship. He is starting to show
that class. I really hope it continues and he stays fit and hungry. UTB.

It's that simple.

 

[LJBlade]

The bloke has had two years and earned about £4,000,000 pounds on top of the £25,000,000 that we shelled out for him. There's been practically zero in return, despite horoscopes suggesting it will come good in future.

I'm sorry if the expectation of a modicum of delivery offended those with the ability to see what a supreme talent he might be when the sun, the moon and the starts lined up - but the reality is the criticism was entirely valid. When appraising current performance, I couldn't give a flying fuck about how good someone might be if circumstances were different.

He's been great in the last few games, and we're all hopeful that it's all finally clicked in to place. That's all that matters now.

What he cost is largely irrelevant. It wouldn't work the other way for example and it isn't something he had much control over.

As I've said, there are mitigating circumstances for his performances since he arrived. That doesn't just go for him by the way, it goes for others who arrived at a similar time, such as Max Lowe.

I don't think anyone has made the argument that he's previously been good so your point about appraising his performance isn't really necessary. In the time since he arrived which players have been consistently good by the way?

What some have said, whilst being shouted down by yourself and several others, is that there is a good player in there which he is now demonstrating to some degree. Rather than writing him off we were saying that we needed to stick with him, give him a good run of games in a settled team. If we used your method of ascertaining whether a player is any good or not we'd not keep anyone for very long.

 

[LJBlade]

It's that simple.

It really isn't and that is obviously why we disagree.

 

[alcoblade]

What he cost is largely irrelevant. It wouldn't work the other way for example and it isn't something he had much control over.

As I've said, there are mitigating circumstances for his performances since he arrived. That doesn't just go for him by the way, it goes for others who arrived at a similar time, such as Max Lowe.

I don't think anyone has made the argument that he's previously been good so your point about appraising his performance isn't really necessary. In the time since he arrived which players have been consistently good by the way?

What some have said, whilst being shouted down by yourself and several others, is that there is a good player in there which he is now demonstrating to some degree. Rather than writing him off we were saying that we needed to stick with him, give him a good run of games in a settled team. If we used your method of ascertaining whether a player is any good or not we'd not keep anyone for very long.

I didn't write him off, or shout people down for believing there was a good player in there. I shouted people down for the ridiculous excuses that were offered up for his continual non performance, - hence Berge Bingo.

No other players have been afforded such a blanket of excuses - rather a widespread acceptance that they must do better. It was the same with Berge, ounce you stripped away the blanket of bullshit people wanted to lay down around it.

 

[Balham]

I'd be interested to know how his current position compares with how both Slav and Wilder decided to play him.

Both Slav and Wilder tried to promote moving the ball over breaking the lines. Berge's game is centred around the latter and that's what he's being doing so effectively in the last two matches. Of course, regaining match fitness and the mental strength from completing 90 minutes is playing a part too.

Wilder also knew that we were technically limited so our shape and style was built on trying to get something out of games on 30-35% possession. That meant playing the percentages and keeping defensive discipline rather than looking to be assertive with the ball. The last season was a joke in terms of individual and collective performances to the point where you could argue that only David McGoldrick came out with his reputation intact.

His song will be sung on Saturday, just like Palace away many moons ago.

Just need to switch the third line to "we're getting promoted this season".

I didn't write him off, or shout people down for believing there was a good player in there. I shouted people down for the ridiculous excuses that were offered up for his continual non performance, - hence Berge Bingo.

No other players have been afforded such a blanket of excuses - rather a widespread acceptance that they must do better. It was the same with Berge, ounce you stripped away the blanket of bullshit people wanted to lay down around it.

My main gripe has been that the main detractors (I'm not aiming this solely at you Alco) seem to have given Berge no leeway for what was a truly horrible injury. There's a Shirecliffe video from last season where you can see the scar on the back of Berge's leg from the surgery to reattach the tendon. That's not an easy thing to get over and the mental impact must have been huge: it's clearly taken him a while to get used to being at full fitness.

I've long said that Berge is not one to change a team's performances but he can enhance them. We now have a happy team playing with confidence and it's no surprise to me that Berge is a significant part of that. Others may disagree - that's the beauty of opinions, right?

 

[LJBlade]

I didn't write him off, or shout people down for believing there was a good player in there. I shouted people down for the ridiculous excuses that were offered up for his continual non performance, - hence Berge Bingo.

No other players have been afforded such a blanket of excuses - rather a widespread acceptance that they must do better. It was the same with Berge, ounce you stripped away the blanket of bullshit people wanted to lay down around it.

But the 'excuses' were relevant. The ones I provided were at least and I used the same for other players. As I said, mitigating circumstances, the fact that you see it as simply as 'player cost x and therefore he must be good' ignores the issues he's faced since he arrived. It ignores the performance of the team as a whole since he's arrived.

Maybe some were willing to be more lenient with Berge because they could see there was a good player in there.

 

[alcoblade]

But the 'excuses' were relevant. The ones I provided were at least and I used the same for other players. As I said, mitigating circumstances, the fact that you see it as simply as 'player cost x and therefore he must be good' ignores the issues he's faced since he arrived. It ignores the performance of the team as a whole since he's arrived.

Maybe some were willing to be more lenient with Berge because they could see there was a good player in there.

I don't see the need for leniency with players. I'll be the first to admit that my ability to se potential in players isn't the best (actually most people talk shit, without realizing it). But my focus is generally on what is playing out in front of us, today. Whilst we've been poor, people were happy to write off many players who'd actually earned us top flight football, which made the Berge Bingo unpalatable for me.

 

[dc_blade]

Presumably because they are the exception and not the rule.

Are they, though? There are a number of exceptions in our current squad, then: Foderingham (written off before he’d played a game), Norwood, Brewster, Berge, just to name a few. A couple of those have only just started to turn things around, granted—but would people feel as confident saying they will definitely never come good they were a few months ago?

Ramsdale another interesting recent example.

 

[dc_blade]

I don't see the need for leniency with players. I'll be the first to admit that my ability to se potential in players isn't the best (actually most people talk shit, without realizing it). But my focus is generally on what is playing out in front of us, today. Whilst we've been poor, people were happy to write off many players who'd actually earned us top flight football, which made the Berge Bingo unpalatable for me.

You’re making it a moral question when it’s actually a question about the guy’s ability or lack thereof.

 

[Nagima]

Prior to his injury Sander was only offering glimpses of his capability. Yes the injury was serious and he then had more issues. It has taken him quite a bit of time to get to the level of performance that we can all see how capable he really is.
At his best and playing in a more forward midfield role he offers us creativity and quality.
The last few games have shown the player we thought we bought. As for the expectation levels because of his fee, well we payed 23 or so million for a youngish player. That would entitle any fan to think that he would be better than the midfielders that we have. That expectation is not unrealistic. He is finally coming good and that is a positive for us.

But like Brewster and more of our signings it has taken along time to get a return. Its not unreasonable to expect players to start performing earlier.

 

[Revolution]

What have Burke and McBurnie got to do with this discussion? Sounds as though you're trying to deflect from the point, instead of discussing it.

The fact that Berge is now looking much better and some of us having been saying for a while that there is definitely a player in there suggests that we aren't the blind ones.

I've no idea what you mean about the Berge Bingo, it sounds like something you'd make up to avoid admitting that you could be wrong.

I’m delighted that Berge is doing really well. He’s played 2 games back to back where he’s been really good and we wouldn’t have beaten Blackburn without him.

I really hope he proves me wrong. Others have. Heckingbottom has to date, Foderingham has to date. Norwood is showing form I thought was gone forever. All to the good. I’ve had no ego about it.

So well done you, if you always knew this form would come, a mere two years of indifferent to poor performances later. Because that’s not a normal performance arc.

 

[Nick Jansky]

It's the "he's shit", "he's never going to be good enough", "we'll never recoup what we spent him" and so on.

I've discovered that if you discipline yourself to place anybody who posts anything along those lines on "ignore", the collective IQ and general standard of debate on here both absolutely rocket skywards very very quickly. Its like magic!

 

[SouthportBlade]

I don't see the need for leniency with players. I'll be the first to admit that my ability to se potential in players isn't the best (actually most people talk shit, without realizing it). But my focus is generally on what is playing out in front of us, today. Whilst we've been poor, people were happy to write off many players who'd actually earned us top flight football, which made the Berge Bingo unpalatable for me.

It feels like view on importance of context where much of the polarisation on Berge stems from.

Personally, context is hugely relevant to understanding what goes on in front us on the pitch. Not to excuse performances, because everyone agrees Berge has been very disappointing (irrespective of fee/reputation) - but on forming judgement, and yes perhaps granting leniency, or maybe understanding.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but an interesting point in your post is the "focus on what is playing out in front of us, today" in forming judgement, when with that outlook you would have written off a number of our players as were much poorer performers - yet history in red and white grants leniency?

* Anyway, think the main point is Berge has finally ran out of excuses... He's now fit, playing in a team full on confidence, is more settled in a post-covid UK and is being used in a position that suits and guess what's happened to his performances

Posted in another thread sometimes it takes a while to click, we've seen it before (Basham, Coutts, Wes etc) and will see it again. We often overlook the fact footballers are normal people too.

Yes its been a long time coming, and yes it's only a couple of games but long may it continue!

* Tongue firmly in cheek...

 

[alcoblade]

You’re making it a moral question when it’s actually a question about the guy’s ability or lack thereof.

I (genuinely) don't understand your point really fella?

 

[dc_blade]

I (genuinely) don't understand your point really fella?

You're getting irritated with people for "making excuses" and "leniency" as if what's at stake is whether or not he's behaved poorly. But most of the people you've accused of playing "Berge Bingo" have been putting forward reasons why he might still come good.

 

[alcoblade]

It feels like view on importance of context where much of the polarisation on Berge stems from.

Personally, context is hugely relevant to understanding what goes on in front us on the pitch. Not to excuse performances, because everyone agrees Berge has been very disappointing (irrespective of fee/reputation) - but on forming judgement, and yes perhaps granting leniency, or maybe understanding.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but an interesting point in your post is the "focus on what is playing out in front of us, today" in forming judgement, when with that outlook you would have written off a number of our players as were much poorer performers - yet history in red and white grants leniency?

* Anyway, think the main point is Berge has finally ran out of excuses... He's now fit, playing in a team full on confidence, is more settled in a post-covid UK and is being used in a position that suits and guess what's happened to his performances

Posted in another thread sometimes it takes a while to click, we've seen it before (Basham, Coutts, Wes etc) and will see it again. We often overlook the fact footballers are normal people too.

Yes its been a long time coming, and yes it's only a couple of games but long may it continue!

* Tongue firmly in cheek...

Not really - if you take Norwood, who's been written of by so many despite proving what a top player he could be, and actually earning our respect by delivering promotion for us. Why wasn't he offered the chance that he might have personal problems, that the players around him weren't good enough, that tweaks in formation didn't suit him?

 

[alcoblade]

You're getting irritated with people for "making excuses" and "leniency" as if what's at stake is whether or not he's behaved poorly. But most of the people you've accused of playing "Berge Bingo" have been putting forward reasons why he might still come good.

No, I was irritated by having to outlay over £30M in transfer fee and wages for a player that spectacularly failed to deliver, whilst seeing my team relegated (along with many other players, to add).

Separately, I was bemused / amused at those who fell over themselves to excuse him, yet offered none of the same leeway to players who'd actually delivered for us in the past.

Anyway, let's all hug and agree that we might finally have a player on our hands.

 

[dc_blade]

No, I was irritated by having to outlay over £30M in transfer fee and wages for a player that spectacularly failed to deliver, whilst seeing my team relegated (along with many other players, to add).

Separately, I was bemused / amused at those who fell over themselves to excuse him, yet offered none of the same leeway to players who'd actually delivered for us in the past.

Anyway, let's all hug and agree that we might finally have a player on our hands.

Yeah, I'm not denying you were right to be upset about it. It's just that the question of whether your feelings were valid got mixed up with the question of whether Berge might be a decent player or not.

Anyway, onwards and upwards, as you say.

 

[Barry Butlin]

Aged well

I’m delighted to be wrong

 

[Champagneblade]

And funnily enough your post is liked by all the usual Berge haters......my message , Get over it !! Must really hurt you all

Who is hating on Berge?

He's playing well now. That is exactly what we wanted and expected. We're all willing him on.

He hadn't been having the impact we wanted though, showing promise of what he could do without backing it up with a sustained contribution like he has the last two. He is capable of being a constant threat and he is showing that now.

My point was, let's not kid ourselves that he was playing well before this current stint. He wasn't.

Let's hope he continues to build on where he is at now. He seems happy in his role and having a happy player is half the battle.

 

[LJBlade]

Who is hating on Berge?

He's playing well now. That is exactly what we wanted and expected. We're all willing him on.

He hadn't been having the impact we wanted though, showing promise of what he could do without backing it up with a sustained contribution like he has the last two. He is capable of being a constant threat and he is showing that now.

My point was, let's not kid ourselves that he was playing well before this current stint. He wasn't.

Let's hope he continues to build on where he is at now. He seems happy in his role and having a happy player is half the battle.

Has anyone said he was playing particularly well before this current stint?

 

[alcoblade]

I've discovered that if you discipline yourself to place anybody who posts anything along those lines on "ignore", the collective IQ and general standard of debate on here both absolutely rocket skywards very very quickly. Its like magic!

You wouldn’t have placed anyone on ignore, because the sum total of people who’ve said he’s shit is precisely zero. If anyone has, I’ve definitely missed it.

Straw man alert.