New regulator

[alcoblade]

These companies. That go bust. In the real world. Do people have tattoos of the logos of those businesses?

I.don't.know.that.or.why.you.needed.three.seperate.posts?

Thankfully football clubs very rarely go bust, so people will need to imagine another problem to tackle.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I.don't.know.

Thankfully football clubs rarely go bust, so people will need to imagine another problem to tackle.

I mean. That's just in denial. I think you know that football industry tattoos are much more proportionally prevalent than (say) tattoos of the logo of high street banks.
If you're still wavering, are you prepared to accept my word?

 

[alcoblade]

I mean. That's just in denial. I think you know that football industry tattoos are much more proportionally prevalent than (say) tattoos of the logo of high street banks.
If you're still wavering, are you prepared to accept my word?

I'll accept your word Phil. You've won the internet.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

If you compare a bunch of clubs that have gone close to the edge, and imagine a world where no club is close to the edge, I'm sure they'd all rather be in that world.

The point I'm making is that in the real world, far more companies go bust. Not close to the edge, but out of existence.

So you can design your eutopia and argue we should all want a bit of that. I see no evidence of regulated industries delivering that eutopia, and plenty of evidence that things could be far worse.

What's your best example of a regulated industry where many businesses are going bust?

 

[alcoblade]

What's your best example of a regulated industry where many businesses are going bust?

I haven't got one, and didn't suggest that a regulator causes that - but as we've established, that's not a problem that needs tackling.

Perhaps they can stop people having tattoos, or naming themselves after football clubs?

 

[dazzlingblade]

Is it Warren G

 

[sheff_blade90]

If you compare a bunch of clubs that have gone close to the edge, and imagine a world where no club is close to the edge, I'm sure they'd all rather be in that world.

The point I'm making is that in the real world, far more companies go bust. Not close to the edge, but out of existence.

So you can design your eutopia and argue we should all want a bit of that. I see no evidence of regulated industries delivering that eutopia, and plenty of evidence that things could be far worse.

you said they were happily still in business not me. there not a chance you can say that about any of those clubs

Bury heading for liquidation after owner Steve Dale defaults on payments

Bury’s owner Steve Dale has defaulted on the CVA he agreed last summer to settle the club’s £5m debts, having failed to provide the money required to fund it

www.theguardian.com

Bolton Wanderers given 14 days to save future or face liquidation

If this dispute cannot be resolved, the league will reactivate the notice of withdrawal it suspended, giving the Trotters 14 days to come up with an alternative plan to meet their debts and fund the season

www.independent.co.uk

Reading implement drastic cost-cutting measures as financial crisis deepens

The League One club have had to rejig training plans to avoid paying for undersoil heating, made 19 redundancies and owe about £4m to suppliers

www.theguardian.com

The miserable decline of Charlton Athletic

Twenty years after challenging for Europe, the Addicks have been bounced around from one owner to another with nothing to show for it but decay. Now fans just want something to believe in

inews.co.uk

Administrators ran Derby County 'dangerously close to liquidation', MPs told

Derby County news from DerbyshireLive as David Clowes looks to complete a deal to buy the Rams and take them out of administration

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Brutal and bizarre: the story of how Wigan collapsed into administration | David Conn

On the day Au Yeung took ownership after a £41m purchase he decided not to fund the club, and an investigation is now due

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I haven't got one, and didn't suggest that a regulator causes that - but as we've established, that's not a problem that needs tackling.

Perhaps they can stop people having tattoos, or naming themselves after football clubs?

Have you an example of a regulated sports industry, anywhere in the world, where many of the businesses are going bust?

 

[alcoblade]

Have you an example of a regulated sports industry, anywhere in the world, where many of the businesses are going bust?

I'll let you crack on alone with this Phil, as I'm sure you know where you're going with it, because for the love of God I don't.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I'll let you crack on alone with this Phil, as I'm sure you know where you're going with it, because for the love of God I don't.

They're football clubs.
We shouldn't treat them as if they're "just businesses".
We should protect
We should nurture
We should regulate against things that might happen, things that concern us.

 

[Bladeloyal]

These companies. That go bust. In the real world. Do people have tattoos of the logos of those businesses?

I know a few with the British broadcasting corporation tattooed on them something like bbc

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Football is already one of the most regulated industries on earth. The idea you don't need regulations on a particular thing, because that thing rarely happens is wrong.

Teams very rarely try to play 12 players. But we have a regulation saying you can only play 11. The idea of regulating for things that might only happen rarely is central to how football works.

There are a list of things that we wouldn't want to happen to football clubs, even though they aren't happening, or only happen rarely, and we should regulate on those things.

That list could include

Forming Breakaway Leagues
Relocating clubs
Groundsharing with local rivals
Renaming clubs
Changing identities, badges, colours
Asset stripping, notably owners taking money out of clubs
Separating and selling off club assets, notably stadiums.

Note - I'm not saying these things need banning. I'm saying they should be covered by regulations and a regulator.

 

[Bladeloyal]

If the industry wasn't filled with greed and self entitlement,and the owners ran the businesses as a profitable entity ,the need for more regulation wouldn't be a issue .but when wage bills are so high it's suicide economics.

 

[Pedro Verde]

If the industry wasn't filled with greed and self entitlement,and the owners ran the businesses as a profitable entity ,the need for more regulation wouldn't be a issue .but when wage bills are so high it's suicide economics.

What businesses run with their wage bill at 120% of their turnover
As you say suicide economics or pigonomics as its sometimes known

 

[coaxingstar71]

It will be interesting to see what impact a new regulator has on the current system.
I think it's fairly obvious to everyone that the PL is all about the brand and ensuring that the elite clubs keep as much of the money as possible to keep buying the best players on the highest wages ensuring that no one else gets a look in. They don't want some upstarts upsetting their apple cart. The PL will argue is has to remain that way to make sure it remains the most watched league in the world and generates the most income. They don't give a toss about the rest of the clubs, they don't really give a toss about their own fans because the income generated from ticket sales is now a fraction of their income. My son in law is a ST holder at Man Utd, something he had to wait 10 years for and now they are moving him from next season because they are installing more hospitality areas. Says it all, so some wealthy businessman can entertain his clients paying north of £300 a ticket (probably more) and fuck the regular fan who goes to every game and actually supports the club. I told him to tell them to get fucked. If that happened at the Lane, I'd go and watch Hallam or Sheffield club instead.
The FFP points deductions are a joke. What's the point in handing out deductions if they can all be appealed against and inevitably reduced. If clubs break the rules they should get penalised as per the rules. At the end of the season, after the last game, we're still not going to know who is relegated. Farcical.

 

[Sheffsteel]

i did see david sullivan talking about "wrecking something that works" & thought he cant be talking about English football. as we are the titanic & everyone ignoring the iceberg we are heading towards. we have PL teams in hundreds of millions of debt & state run teams where its almost impossible to compete even as a midtable premier league time. championship sides spending 110% of their income on wages, losing 20m a yr to get to premier league & League 1/League 2 getting poorer by the season

i thought FFP is a good idea in a way to make sure that you don't have a Portsmouth situation again. where a team nearly goes bust for spending way above there means & then owner pulls out

You couldn’t be more wrong.

This doom and gloom and predictions of boom and bust were all said in 2000, that’s 24 years ago and since then English football has grown at a massive rate, it’s never been as popular home and abroad.

The EPL is now the world super league with predictions that finances will grow even more. The Spanish and Italian giants are panicking because they know their leagues can’t compete against the juganout of the EPL. Some clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Man Utd have season ticket waiting lists of 30K.

Think the future could be steaming where clubs control their one revenue steams. There are 10’s of million of PL fans around the world, if this happens then the revenue for the big clubs will be incredible.

I understand where you’re coming from regards “where will it all end”, however the genie was taken out of the bottle in 1880’s when the game turned professional.

Sheffield FC were 1 of the few clubs that turned their back on professionalism saying it will kill the game. Wonder if they regret that decision?

Also notice how very few people are interested in watching Sheffield FC, it would be the same if the big 6 to 8 clubs leave the PL, the money would disappear over night, salaries and the standard would massively drop, interest in the English league would drop with all the kids mainly interested in the Euro super league as they would class that as real football.

League football would edge closer through the decades to becoming a super non league competition. It would be quaint and only receive local media attention. The main national media would brain wash all the youth that real football is the Euro league.

However I’m not sure whether a Euro league could overtake the PL in world popularity, also think there would be too much fan kick back, so can’t see any English club leaving the PL inside the next 10 years or so.

 

[alcoblade]

They're football clubs.
We shouldn't treat them as if they're "just businesses".
We should protect
We should nurture
We should regulate against things that might happen, things that concern us.

In the last thirty years, English football has turned itself from a racist, hooligan infested and barely followed basket case, to the most successful setup in the world, with billions of pounds of inward investment. Clubs in the fifth tier are often pulling in 5 figure gates, similar to what plenty of top flight clubs pulled in 30 years ago.

Again, I’m unsure what problem we’re trying to tackle, and concerned that a bloated government led agency might be more likely to turn it all backwards rather than forwards.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

In the last thirty years, English football has turned itself from a racist, hooligan infested and barely followed basket case, to the most successful setup in the world, with billions of pounds on inward investment. Clubs in the fifth tier are often pulling in 5 figure gates, similar to what plenty of top flight clubs pulled in 30 years ago.

Again, I’m unsure what problem we’re trying to tackle, and concerned that a bloated government led agency might be more likely to turn it all backwards rather than forwards.

Remind me. Are we debating again, or not?

 

[alcoblade]

Remind me. Are we debating again, or not?

I’ll contribute as and when. I can’t be arsed with 3 and 4 separate posts in a row making the same (non) point. Call that what you will.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I’ll contribute as and when. I can’t be arsed with 3 and 4 separate posts in a row making the same (non) point. Call that what you will.

How do you feel about the central point that regulation and a regulator are put in place to stop things happening that football fans wouldn't want to happen?

(I've given a list in an earlier post)

And, if you want an example. How about a single club, or a whole league, deciding they won't allow away fans.

Please feel free to say - it isn't happening.
Please feel free to say - you don't think it will happen.

But, in the spirit of debate, do you think there's a regulation role for things that might happen?

I do.

 

[JohnDenver]

If Wednesday went on Dragons Den for investment, once the numbers were crunched it would be four "I am out"

Deborah Meaden would take them out the back and put a bullet between their eyes.

 

[alcoblade]

Remind me. Are we debating again, or not?

How do you feel about the central point that regulation and a regulator are put in place to stop things happening that football fans wouldn't want to happen?

(I've given a list in an earlier post)

And, if you want an example. How about a single club, or a whole league, deciding they won't allow away fans.

Please feel free to say - it isn't happening.
Please feel free to say - you don't think it will happen.

But, in the spirit of debate, do you think there's a regulation role for things that might happen?

I do.

I don’t see it happening, but I can see a lot of other future meddling.

The downside risks appear (to me) much greater than the upside, given the success and direction of travel described above, without the involvements of governments.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I don’t see it happening, but I can see a lot of other future meddling.

The downside risks appear (to me) much greater than the upside, given the success and direction of travel described above, without the involvements of governments.

I love understanding different views. What's the one specific thing you fear most from a regulator? What do you fear they'll do which makes the game worse?

 

[alcoblade]

I love understanding different views. What's the one specific thing you fear most from a regulator? What do you fear they'll do which makes the game worse?

I haven’t got a specific as such. I just don’t understand the need in the first place. Then secondly, I fear once they set these things up, there’s never a time when they think - “we’re not needed anymore”.

To justify their existence (and we’ll be complaining about fat salaries in no time), they will continue to meddle and add complication. The upshot (I fear) being that the inward investment will dry up and the game will go backwards.

 

[Sheffsteel]

In the last thirty years, English football has turned itself from a racist, hooligan infested and barely followed basket case, to the most successful setup in the world, with billions of pounds of inward investment. Clubs in the fifth tier are often pulling in 5 figure gates, similar to what plenty of top flight clubs pulled in 30 years ago.

Again, I’m unsure what problem we’re trying to tackle, and concerned that a bloated government led agency might be more likely to turn it all backwards rather than forwards.

True and another point is that 15 to 20 years ago there were loads of team going into admin every season.
They brought in FFP which has been a massive success because in the last 11 years only FIVE league clubs have gone in to admin.

Also there a massive contradiction.

All fans want to remove FFP controls, they want as much investment as possible, so they get into more and more debt.
However once those clubs go into admin due to overspending the same fans expect sympathy.

It's the same regards great Chairman or poor Chairman.
What you find is that 3 clubs will always gain promotion, no matter what, the fans of those teams think they have great Chairman
where as when teams are relegated, then those fans say they have terrible owners and demand investment (more debt).

Also over 90% of fans have self interest. The EFL complain about the unfair TV revenue distribution but what about the EFL? they give the vast bulk of their money to the Championship so there is now a big gap between Championship and league 1.

If Sheff Utd had finished mid table this season then guess what?
Our fans would be saying the Championship is tin pot and if they can't compete then thats their fault.
Wednesday fans can't get in the PL, so almost all their fans complain about parachute payments.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Hard to get away from the fact that a huge % of football fans would be delighted if their club has bought by Ming the Merciless as long as they win some trophies.

 

[alcoblade]

True and another point is that 15 to 20 years ago there were loads of team going into admin every season.
They brought in FFP which has been a massive success because in the last 11 years only FIVE league clubs have gone in to admin.

Also there a massive contradiction.

All fans want to remove FFP controls, they want as much investment as possible, so they get into more and more debt.
However once those clubs go into admin due to overspending the same fans expect sympathy.

It's the same regards great Chairman or poor Chairman.
What you find is that 3 clubs will always gain promotion, no matter what, the fans of those teams think they have great Chairman
where as when teams are relegated, then those fans say they have terrible owners and demand investment (more debt).

Also over 90% of fans have self interest. The EFL complain about the unfair TV revenue distribution but what about the EFL? they give the vast bulk of their money to the Championship so there is now a big gap between Championship and league 1.

If Sheff Utd had finished mid table this season then guess what?
Our fans would be saying the Championship is tin pot and if they can't compete then thats their fault.
Wednesday fans can't get in the PL, so almost all their fans complain about parachute payments.

One things for sure, in 10 years time fans will be complaining lots, whichever direction they take it.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I haven’t got a specific as such. I just don’t understand the need in the first place. Then secondly, I fear once they set these things up, there’s never a time when they think - “we’re not needed anymore”.

To justify their existence (and we’ll be complaining about fat salaries in no time), they will continue to meddle and add complication. The upshot (I fear) being that the inward investment will dry up and the game will go backwards.

I suppose my take is simply....

Regulation is needed because many football fans worry about what will happen to their club, and the game in general. Despite the big bucks top line.
Many fans feel you can't pick up a paper, or switch the TV on, without hearing about some new shit show, with Wycombe Wanderers buying Reading's Academy, or another club cancelling senior concessions. All despite the big bucks top line.

I understand the argument - but they'll fuck up the implementation.

But, despite the big bucks top line - it's a regular shit show.

 

[alcoblade]

I suppose my take is simply....

Regulation is needed because many football fans worry about what will happen to their club, and the game in general. Despite the big bucks top line.
Many fans feel you can't pick up a paper, or switch the TV on, without hearing about some new shit show, with Wycombe Wanderers buying Reading's Academy, or another club cancelling senior concessions. All despite the big bucks top line.

I understand the argument - but they'll fuck up the implementation.

But, despite the big bucks top line - it's a regular shit show.

See Sheffsteel post above regarding how few clubs enter admin these days, since they’ve changed the rules.

It’s not that regular a shitshow.

 

[Rodley]

The G-funk era funked out with a gangsta twist?