Midfield player types in 4-2-3-1

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Bergen Blade said:
Was expecting that from you 😁.

When Berge does get fit we have to find a way for him to do better, if only to get a decent fee for him.

He came into the club being quoted he felt a bit like a little brother to the others in the squad. Well, enough of that. Maybe he'll do better if given more responsibility. Alongside Bash I think he'd have to take that, in a role that's more similar to what he played at Genk. I think having the likes of Ndiaye, MGW and Bogle, maybe Freeman, to pass to would suit him better than the tippy-tappy stuff down the flank.

I've wanted Bash to be tried in midfield on occasions before, and when it's happened I agree it's been a mixed success. But I don't like writing off things when circumstances are so different. At this point I feel it's worth another try. He's looked hungry and good on the ball since he returned to the side.

5 defeats in the last 8, surely it is time for more than cosmetic changes?
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I understood when he was brought in that Berge's main position was as one of the 2 in a 4231, he's not had a single chance there yet for us under either Wilder or Jokanovic.

I agree with Bash and Berge as at least an option and something different.
 

Railway Blade said:
For me the 4-2-3-1 is leaving us completely vulnerable on the counter attack. The three behind the striker naturally want to get forward because they see that as their primary role, The full backs also try to get forward to support and supposedly get crosses in ( not very good ones generally). When we misplace a pass or cross or cut a ball back behind our forwards as was happening at Blackburn we are the left completely exposed. The two midfielders then don't have the numbers or the athleticism to stop the counter attack.

We need to find a formation that gives us a bit more protection and solidity when we invariably give the ball away in the attacking third. As has been suggested 4-3-2-1 may be better or 4-4-2 with the two wide midfielders being a bit more defensive minded say Bogle and Osborne.
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I agree it can be a problem, but it hugely depends on the players chosen in that formation. Arsenal and West Ham seem to have got the balance right this season, and their defensive records are good. The best team in the league so far, Fulham, also play this formation. Seri and Reed are busy and hard working lads who make sure it's difficult to play through them.
 
Great analysis as usual.

Outside of the gaping holes we currently have, we really miss a couple of nasty fuckers in the mould of Morgan and Brown as this current squad has no heart or fight and unless this is addressed soon we could become the most talented squad to drop into League 1 bar none.
 
bakeblade said:
Replace Olsen with Wes and Fleck with Hourihane or Freeman and I'm in.
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Hourihane is as bad as fleck and Freeman is worse. The guy is overweight which is a disgrace considering the money we are paying him.
 
We are so light in midfield it's unreal,I always notice when we have a corner or defending a corner we have no big men compared to the opposition.
 
TopBoy said:
Great analysis as usual.

Outside of the gaping holes we currently have, we really miss a couple of nasty fuckers in the mould of Morgan and Brown as this current squad has no heart or fight and unless this is addressed soon we could become the most talented squad to drop into League 1 bar none.
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In 2021, we'd miss them three games out of every four
 
Nagima said:
Hourihane is as bad as fleck and Freeman is worse. The guy is overweight which is a disgrace considering the money we are paying him.
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Fleck has had too many chances, Hourihan has had 35 mins. Surely he needs another go or we might has well cancel his loan.
Freeman is skillful and used in a forward positive could still be good.
 
Railway Blade said:
For me the 4-2-3-1 is leaving us completely vulnerable on the counter attack. The three behind the striker naturally want to get forward because they see that as their primary role, The full backs also try to get forward to support and supposedly get crosses in ( not very good ones generally). When we misplace a pass or cross or cut a ball back behind our forwards as was happening at Blackburn we are the left completely exposed. The two midfielders then don't have the numbers or the athleticism to stop the counter attack.

We need to find a formation that gives us a bit more protection and solidity when we invariably give the ball away in the attacking third. As has been suggested 4-3-2-1 may be better or 4-4-2 with the two wide midfielders being a bit more defensive minded say Bogle and Osborne.
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And the opposition have easily worked out how to play against us.
Note Forest's tactics of sitting back and hitting us on the break.
I'm sure that's not Forests usual way of playing particularly at home.
 
bakeblade said:
Fleck has had too many chances, Hourihan has had 35 mins. Surely he needs another go or we might has well cancel his loan.
Freeman is skillful and used in a forward positive could still be good.
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If Hourihane can't displace Fleck or Norwood that must tell you something. From what I have seen of him he plays very conservatively and doesn't look to get on the ball enough. The problem we have is that we are lacking athletic midfielders. Freeman has skill but isn't pacey and is overweight. So what ever player he was at QPR, he doesn't look remotely like that now.

I have no problem with giving them ago for a few games but I think neither will help us change our fortunes.
 
Nagima said:
If Hourihane can't displace Fleck or Norwood that must tell you something. From what I have seen of him he plays very conservatively and doesn't look to get on the ball enough. The problem we have is that we are lacking athletic midfielders. Freeman has skill but isn't pacey and is overweight. So what ever player he was at QPR, he doesn't look remotely like that now.

I have no problem with giving them ago for a few games but I think neither will help us change our fortunes.
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Freeman at QPR, and Bristol City before that, was the main man. Played behind the strikers or off the left wing, little defensive requirement and allowed to dictate play. He's not good enough to do that for us so we require him to do a more physical, mobile role which he's not (and never has been) capable of.
 
Nagima said:
If Hourihane can't displace Fleck or Norwood that must tell you something. From what I have seen of him he plays very conservatively and doesn't look to get on the ball enough. The problem we have is that we are lacking athletic midfielders. Freeman has skill but isn't pacey and is overweight. So what ever player he was at QPR, he doesn't look remotely like that now.

I have no problem with giving them ago for a few games but I think neither will help us change our fortunes.
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To be honest neither do I, but we'll not know until they are at least given a decent go.
What I am sure about is that persevering with Norwood and Fleck is definitely not working
 
Not sure Bash is suited to Midfield anymore. Must be about ten years since he was a regular in midfield. We need him at the back. Not sure why Guédioura hasn’t been given a chance.
 

mancunianblade said:
Sound like a broken record and assume most people are sick of me banging this drum but I don’t know why when Davies is fit that Basham doesn’t play the DM role.. he has all the attributes needed
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I 100% agree when you look at the promotion season goal he scored against Leeds, yes the Leeds were shite at defending but he covered 70 plus yards to tuck that one away.
 
nopigfansintown said:
The football is stylistically different, but it's fair to say the Belgium top league is higher end Champ to bottom end Prem technically. If we were in their top division this season or last season we'd be relegated quite comfortably.
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The bottom team last year was Royal Excel Mouscron. They have a stadium capacity of less than 11k. Their current squad value is 5m. Beerschot's is about 23m, 2.7m of which is Coulibaly.

I know we were bad. But the entire market value of the Jupiler Pro League is £750m according to Transfermarkt. Same criteria applied to our squad now, not PL, is £112m which would place us third behind Club Brugge at £150m and not far behind Genk at £120m.

If we retained the same resources and squad you'd modestly expect to be pushing for the top end play offs at the very least.
 
Stu_Blade said:
I 100% agree when you look at the promotion season goal he scored against Leeds, yes the Leeds were shite at defending but he covered 70 plus yards to tuck that one away.
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Yep, tackled it into the net !!!
 
we need to bring a physical defensive midfielder in this january to play alongside berge (hopefully) in slavs 4231 system plus a physical striker in to play the 1 up top those are the 2 most important areas for me
 
Champagneblade said:
The bottom team last year was Royal Excel Mouscron. They have a stadium capacity of less than 11k. Their current squad value is 5m. Beerschot's is about 23m, 2.7m of which is Coulibaly.

I know we were bad. But the entire market value of the Jupiler Pro League is £750m according to Transfermarkt. Same criteria applied to our squad now, not PL, is £112m which would place us third behind Club Brugge at £150m and not far behind Genk at £120m.

If we retained the same resources and squad you'd modestly expect to be pushing for the top end play offs at the very least.
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My comment refers purely to the level of football. I stand by that comment. It's axiomatic that English teams are bigger with more financial power (although I wouldn't get my stats from transfermarkt!), but that says nothing about the quality of football. My evidence is watching lots of matches in both leagues. The English always overate the quality of the football in our leagues. One example: the Championship is terrible this year; it's hard to remember a poorer standard at this level in the last 20 years, yet all we hear is how great and competitive it is.

I'd be interested to know PurpleRain opinion on the standard of the Belgium top division in relation to the Premier League and Championship?
 
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Whatever we do in the JTW, the centre midfield has to at least try Berge in the central 2. Norwood and Fleck are simply not suitable to be together in how SJ wants to play the game.

Someone has to protect the 2 x CD's.

Berge might not be suitable but when he is fit, he needs trying, perhaps with Guendioura.

For me we can't go on as we are, dominating possession on our own ground and others (barring only Swansea away this season) and not picking up points due to gifting goals and ultimately 3 points to the opposition.

Our play in possession has room for improvement, but it's not a million miles away. Our play out of possession is abysmal as teams are just being patient and picking us off. Being picked off has been a recurring theme for weeks and weeks now.

Slav has in effect said so much following the Blackburn game - but he could have chosen numerous examples since the first game v Birmingham.

Something has to give as at the moment the players, the formation and ultimately the results are talking Slav out of a job - which would be a big shame. IF, and I hope he does get it right, will produce fantastic football...........will he get the time?

UTB
 
nopigfansintown said:
My comment refers purely to the level of football. I stand by that comment. It's axiomatic that English teams are bigger with more financial power (although I wouldn't get my stats from transfermarkt!), but that says nothing about the quality of football. My evidence is watching lots of matches in both leagues. The English always overate the quality of the football in our leagues. One example: the Championship is terrible this year; it's hard to remember a poorer standard at this level in the last 20 years, yet all we hear is how great and competitive it is.

I'd be interested to know PurpleRain opinion on the standard of the Belgium top division in relation to the Premier League and Championship?
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Having seen a number of games in top leagues in Europe, I don’t agree. Championship at best for all the leagues below the big ones.

I’d agree that the championship isn’t great this year, but the second tier European leagues are worse. They are shorn of good players. They all go to the big 5 leagues.
 
nopigfansintown said:
My comment refers purely to the level of football. I stand by that comment. It's axiomatic that English teams are bigger with more financial power (although I wouldn't get my stats from transfermarkt!), but that says nothing about the quality of football. My evidence is watching lots of matches in both leagues. The English always overate the quality of the football in our leagues. One example: the Championship is terrible this year; it's hard to remember a poorer standard at this level in the last 20 years, yet all we hear is how great and competitive it is.

I'd be interested to know PurpleRain opinion on the standard of the Belgium top division in relation to the Premier League and Championship?
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To be honest I'm just impressed by your use of the word axiomatic which is a word which seemed to peak in the 1960s and one I confess I was ignorant to.

What a great way in one word to say it goes without saying or it is self explanatory.

I'm more with Revolution in terms of where we sit on this debate however, I do appreciate it's not about battering fellow Blades into submission to acquiesce to your point of view. But I thank you for the education. I should have had more faith that S24SU was a place of learning as well as debate!
 
if we can get berge fit again it will be like signing a new player imo very much doubt slav will want to change from a back 4 so we really need a protector to play alongside berge in the 4231 formation guerdioura isnt the answer for me
 
ancientblade said:
if we can get berge fit again it will be like signing a new player imo very much doubt slav will want to change from a back 4 so we really need a protector to play alongside berge in the 4231 formation guerdioura isnt the answer for me
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Guerdioura isn't the answer to any question
 
ancientblade said:
if we can get berge fit again it will be like signing a new player imo very much doubt slav will want to change from a back 4 so we really need a protector to play alongside berge in the 4231 formation guerdioura isnt the answer for me
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After the JTW, and Guerdioura is deemed "fit?" he could be seen as a back up, this is all reliant on Slav having identified and signed the player he wants to play along side Berge, if indeed that's the direction we're heading. All speculation of course, but might give us improvement in the new year, who knows? time will tell UTB,
 
Bergen Blade said:
I agree it can be a problem, but it hugely depends on the players chosen in that formation. Arsenal and West Ham seem to have got the balance right this season, and their defensive records are good. The best team in the league so far, Fulham, also play this formation. Seri and Reed are busy and hard working lads who make sure it's difficult to play through them.
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As usual Bergen you cut through it like a knife through butter.
I think S J saying we have a better squad than Fulham when he took them up is a tongue in the cheek comment.
Respecting what he did at Watford and Fulham no way have we a better squad than
Fulham had.
They had weakness like all teams have,there weaknesses pale into insignificance compared to ours.They were scoring for fun can't see us acheaving that.
I would say he must be a frustrated coach when he comes out with a comment like that.
The balance to the team is just not there,god knows what the prince was thinking saying quote : if we didn't sign any players he would be happy to go with what we have " unbelievable !!
 
The first rule of football, as far as I'm concerned, is that you have to be difficult to play against. There's a number of ways of achieving this - you can be compact and defensive (cf José Mourinho in big European games, Chris Wilder's United in 2019/20), you can be organised and physical (cf Sean Dyche's Burnley), you can be technically brilliant and keep the ball away from the opposition (Guardiola's Barcelona) or you can just be better than everyone else (Bayern, United in 2016/17) to name a few.

It seems to me that Jokanovic is trying to take the third approach but we don't have the players. That also impacts the ability to revert to options 1 and 2 as we don't have the players for that either. Until we become difficult to play against we'll go nowhere as we'll continue to concede stupid, avoidable goals.

Central midfield is critical to this.
 
Mojo said:
Was just saying on the shout box although far from ideal I would try Osborn and Berge as the two. At least they would be a bit more mobile.
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I am no football coach but for me the defence needs an extra man. Not necessarily a 5 at the back but a roaming DM that could act as a sweeper would need someone with high energy levels over 90 mins could we justify a 4-1-3-2 so it would be 4 at the back the "roaming DM" 3 midfield with an AM and 2 wingers/wide players and 2 strikers
 
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