Midfield player types in 4-2-3-1

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Thanks for your efforts- it's not easy! I strongly agree about Basham. Also he is a much better player than when he last played there. I'd like us to get the ball forward quicker and risk giving it away. Also the defence to push up more when he have it. The gap between midfield and defence when we lose it is too big. Obviously this leaves us open to the ball over the top but no system is infallible. We are often backpeddling and being overrun when we lose it high up the pitch. We simply have to get more athleticism and physicality in that midfield.
 

If we get it forward quicker we run the risk of misplaced passes resulting in turning possession over. The reason we are so cautious and move it slower is because we do not want to run the risk of giving the ball away as we have no one to win it back.
 
Start by getting some actual wingers in, the side is massively unbalanced, MGW is a much better central attacking midfielder, than when out wide. Osborn puts a shift in but isn’t winger always willing to take someone on and beat them for pace or with tricks. Despite Brewster efforts out wide he’s also not a winger.

No decent width, is my conclusion, we’ve seen teams that don’t put square pegs in round holes beat us. None of those teams had wide players who are world beaters, but they did the simplest of things in that position really well because they’re playing in their natural position.
 
Finding a solution to the above is definitely the difficult part, and any suggestion will certainly be met with criticism by some.

And there is a chance any new midfield combination may look even worse, which SJ found out when he tried sticking Courihane in there. But we won't know unless it's tried.

I'd try Basham and Berge, if the latter gets fit after the international break.

I would sacrifice continuity (it's not giving us a lot) for something completely different. Also sacrificing some of the ball playing skills that Fleck and Norwood do offer. It may lead to us giving the ball away more, but maybe we need to get back to basics a little. Hopefully we'd have a stronger look about us, win more balls in midfield, be more dynamic and forward facing. Less emphasis on slow build ups, more on transitions with the intention of getting behind teams when we can. Both Bash and Berge can carry the ball over distances and hopefully this will mean they can move the ball on to teammates running forward more often.

One team suggestion:

- - - - - - - Olsen - - - - - -
Baldock Egan Davies RND
- - - - Basham Berge - - - -
Bogle - - Ndiaye - - MGW
- - - Sharp/Mousset - - -


I'm sure there are a lot of people who've lost patience with a few here, but this is a team that we haven't seen fail, so it's all guesswork. I think Bogle, Ndiaye and MGW are our most creative players, but they are not getting the space they need at the moment, because our build up is too slow. A more robust defensive line up and a little simpler style of play is worth trying IMO.
That's not a bad looking line up although I'd bench Olsen.
I've been against Basham in midfield but coming round now to trying him in the defensively role.
 
I think the simplest answer is we just need to change from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-2-1 with Ndiaye and MGW playing as the two behind the striker.

Gives us an extra body in midfield and means we don't have to shoehorn Osborn plus a striker into playing out wide each week. 👌
 
Slav has been tactically inept so far. Maybe the worst management tactically since I've followed the club. I could defend him until the close of the August window due to one reason; the argument that this is how he wanted to play once he got the signings in that he wanted during the window.That he didn't want to confuse the players - a bit of pain in August was worth it for continuity over the season?!

A quick tactical breakdown of our players strengths and how they're being used:

Goalkeeper: Arguably our best player at that point, Foderingham, dropped for new arrival Olsen, despite doing nothing wrong. You make a call like that you'd better get it right or you can quickly lose a dressing room. Olsen has been like Lee Baxter's doppelganger.

Full backs. None on the books capable of being capable full backs at Championship level. There is, however, five proven capable wing backs at this level. Rushing Steven back has also been a disaster which has already cost us Berge.

Centre backs: No capable centre backs in a back four at this level. Egan was let go by Brentford precisely because of this limitation in a four. Three capable centre backs in a three at this level are on the books.If we HAVE to play with four, releasing Jags and allowing Lopata out on loan are two mystifying decisions; as well as Slav choosing not to target another CB (he doesn't want one in the next window either!).

Central midfielders. Apart from Berge no central midfielders capable of playing in a two that have started a league game this season. Norwood, Fleck, Berge, Hourihane etc all have had success in a three. Ndiaye, MGW, Didzy etc are all capable of playing in the hole or supplementing this three if needed.

By his own admission no wide men, but a mystifying bordering on bat shit crazy insistence on playing three up top.

Central strikers: Only one player on the books with a recent record of success playing the central role in the three ( Mcburnie). This extremely physical role, however, has been given to 35 year old Sharp who has been hung out to dry by the manager ( credit for exceeding expectations). Other strikers are also hung out to dry being judged when playing out of position in the wide areas.

In game management has been disastrous. Point after point has been thrown away because he seemingly has no idea how to shut a game down or exploit the spaces. When asked he says "attack is the best form of defense". Looks like it! Players also look unmotivated and frankly confused.

Set pieces have also been terrible for the most part.
 
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Berge cannot do what we want him to do. He hides and is nesh. The good stuff comes from him too infrequently.

Having said that I’m sick to the back teeth of the current incumbents.

As for Basham, people may forget as it was a long time ago, but Basham could do a good job in a midfield 3, but could not cope in a 2. He has improved since then but I have low expectations. Personally I’d keep him in defence as he’s the best defender on the books. He’s a much better player than Davis and Egan is hopelessly out of form.

Was expecting that from you 😁.

When Berge does get fit we have to find a way for him to do better, if only to get a decent fee for him.

He came into the club being quoted he felt a bit like a little brother to the others in the squad. Well, enough of that. Maybe he'll do better if given more responsibility. Alongside Bash I think he'd have to take that, in a role that's more similar to what he played at Genk. I think having the likes of Ndiaye, MGW and Bogle, maybe Freeman, to pass to would suit him better than the tippy-tappy stuff down the flank.

I've wanted Bash to be tried in midfield on occasions before, and when it's happened I agree it's been a mixed success. But I don't like writing off things when circumstances are so different. At this point I feel it's worth another try. He's looked hungry and good on the ball since he returned to the side.

5 defeats in the last 8, surely it is time for more than cosmetic changes?
 
Good analysis. Berge if fit could well help us here like mentioned.

When you look at our midfield generally regards defensively. We're a bunch of shorties. And although it's on ability sometimes you need that beef.
Berge although not commanding is at least big.

Midfield deffo isn't quite working though predominantly in protecting our defence. Norwood and Fleck might have worked in a 3 with a new Duffy role perhaps but together in this one it's not quite right is it.
 
Was expecting that from you 😁.

When Berge does get fit we have to find a way for him to do better, if only to get a decent fee for him.

He came into the club being quoted he felt a bit like a little brother to the others in the squad. Well, enough of that. Maybe he'll do better if given more responsibility. Alongside Bash I think he'd have to take that, in a role that's more similar to what he played at Genk. I think having the likes of Ndiaye, MGW and Bogle, maybe Freeman, to pass to would suit him better than the tippy-tappy stuff down the flank.

I've wanted Bash to be tried in midfield on occasions before, and when it's happened I agree it's been a mixed success. But I don't like writing off things when circumstances are so different. At this point I feel it's worth another try. He's looked hungry and good on the ball since he returned to the side.

5 defeats in the last 8, surely it is time for more than cosmetic changes?

It's a beggars can't be choosers scenario. It's unbelievable that Bash and/or Slater haven't been tried. If they can win the ball back, close down spaces and pass the ball square five yards they are better than what we have in a two.If they aren't, we can't play a two. It's as simple as that.
 
Sound like a broken record and assume most people are sick of me banging this drum but I don’t know why when Davies is fit that Basham doesn’t play the DM role.. he has all the attributes needed
Completely and utterly agree been banging this drum for a few weeks myself
 
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You may as well play 4-3-3 with the current lot and accept that whilst Gibbs-White and N'Diaye are not conventional wingers, they can create from wide and have good movement.

Reason I say this is that because of the total lack of athleticism in your options you probably need to play three I midfield.

That may be Basham and Fleck with Norwood, it may involve introducing Slater. But someone who can win the ball is drastically needed.

At best you might just be able to edge towards 4-2-3-1 if Basham or Slater is one of your two and even then you'd struggle to fully commit to 4-2-3-1 and possibly have Fleck slightly further forward.

I don't see a fully functioning 2 when we don't have the ball.
 
I’d play 2 holding midfielders with MGW in more of a Duffy role , 2 holding would allow the fullbacks to push on more giving us more of a threat outwide and playing to Billy’s strengths with one of Mousett, Brewster and Ndayie either side of him going 4-2-1-3
 

Was expecting that from you 😁.

When Berge does get fit we have to find a way for him to do better, if only to get a decent fee for him.

He came into the club being quoted he felt a bit like a little brother to the others in the squad. Well, enough of that. Maybe he'll do better if given more responsibility. Alongside Bash I think he'd have to take that, in a role that's more similar to what he played at Genk. I think having the likes of Ndiaye, MGW and Bogle, maybe Freeman, to pass to would suit him better than the tippy-tappy stuff down the flank.

I've wanted Bash to be tried in midfield on occasions before, and when it's happened I agree it's been a mixed success. But I don't like writing off things when circumstances are so different. At this point I feel it's worth another try. He's looked hungry and good on the ball since he returned to the side.

5 defeats in the last 8, surely it is time for more than cosmetic changes?
Oh, I agree. I don’t rate Berge at all but anything has to be better than what Norwood and Fleck are serving up at the moment (well, perhaps not quite anything- Hourihane may be even worse).

Re Basham, I just think a round peg in a round hole is better. He’s played brilliantly in the PL the season before last and decently last season. He should stay in defence IMHO.
 
As expected, a quality analysis from Bergen.
The proffered solutions seem to depend on the input of aging squad members, like. Sharp, Basham, McGoldrick, Fleck and Norwood?
OK for this season as Slav gets on with building his way. Probably not for the future. I love Sharp, but to ask him to shine in 2 games every week is too much. His game is not suited to playing deeper, as so many former strikers have done. (Rooney, McGoldrick)
Slav continues to pick full backs Baldock and Stevens, who are used to the comfort blanket of Basham and JOC in attacking defensive play. Norwood and Fleck have suffered from this association without the support of one or more attack minded defenders like Baldock, Stevens, Basham and JOC.
Those who have been slated for their form recently, have had two key players missing from their support game Having Basham and JOC in there gave them certainty and reassurance. For different reasons, Basham and O’Connell have been missing from the start.
Take out any 2 players from that group, and form a tactics go out the window. Blades sides have always been more than the sum of their parts, and this showed whenever we were successful.
In the short/medium term, Slav needs to go back to that strong defensive feature that produced a back five that was most successful when the key players were all fit, and the side finished 9th in the PL.
Repurpose Davies in the JOC role and it could help the confidence and enjoyment of Fleck and Norwood., plus making Baldock, Stevens and Basham more comfortable with their roles.

Longer term the club needs replacements for Basham, Sharp, McGoldrick, and probably Fleck and Norwood.
Slav needs to adapt to the players available to him, and be a bit more flexible about what they are capable of as a collective. He seems to trying to reshape most of the squad to his preferred style, when repurposing one player, Davies, might do the trick?

Ask yourselves why the engine room of Fleck and Norwood are not giving our strikers the ammunition they are all desperate for?
When the old back 5 were fit, the side could relax in the certain knowledge that the midfield were comfortable with each other and their duties.

We were much better and cohesive with a team ethos.
 
I said a player in the same mould ,who can tackle ,then play it simple . When Doyle left ,I remember we were same shipping goals and become to soft.
Contrary to popular opinion he didn't actually tackle, he just pointed for other people to tackle.
 
For me the 4-2-3-1 is leaving us completely vulnerable on the counter attack. The three behind the striker naturally want to get forward because they see that as their primary role, The full backs also try to get forward to support and supposedly get crosses in ( not very good ones generally). When we misplace a pass or cross or cut a ball back behind our forwards as was happening at Blackburn we are the left completely exposed. The two midfielders then don't have the numbers or the athleticism to stop the counter attack.

We need to find a formation that gives us a bit more protection and solidity when we invariably give the ball away in the attacking third. As has been suggested 4-3-2-1 may be better or 4-4-2 with the two wide midfielders being a bit more defensive minded say Bogle and Osborne.
 
Oh, I agree. I don’t rate Berge at all but anything has to be better than what Norwood and Fleck are serving up at the moment (well, perhaps not quite anything- Hourihane may be even worse).

Re Basham, I just think a round peg in a round hole is better. He’s played brilliantly in the PL the season before last and decently last season. He should stay in defence IMHO.
To be honest, I’d have Bash in any position on the pitch. His determination to get this team moving forward is infectious. Yes he got caught out of position a couple of times. But when you’re also having compensate for a totally impotent midfield...He can be forgiven for that.
 
Slav has been tactically inept so far. Maybe the worst management tactically since I've followed the club. I could defend him until the close of the August window due to one reason; the argument that this is how he wanted to play once he got the signings in that he wanted during the window.That he didn't want to confuse the players - a bit of pain in August was worth it for continuity over the season?!

A quick tactical breakdown of our players strengths and how they're being used:

Goalkeeper: Arguably our best player at that point, Foderingham, dropped for new arrival Olsen, despite doing nothing wrong. You make a call like that you'd better get it right or you can quickly lose a dressing room. Olsen has been like Lee Baxter's doppelganger.

Full backs. None on the books capable of being capable full backs at Championship level. There is, however, five proven capable wing backs at this level. Rushing Steven back has also been a disaster which has already cost us Berge.

Centre backs: No capable centre backs in a back four at this level. Egan was let go by Brentford precisely because of this limitation in a four. Three capable centre backs in a three at this level are on the books.If we HAVE to play with four, releasing Jags and allowing Lopata out on loan are two mystifying decisions; as well as Slav choosing not to target another CB (he doesn't want one in the next window either!).

Central midfielders. Apart from Berge no central midfielders capable of playing in a two that have started a league game this season. Norwood, Fleck, Berge, Hourihane etc all have had success in a three. Ndiaye, MGW, Didzy etc are all capable of playing in the hole or supplementing this three if needed.

By his own admission no wide men, but a mystifying bordering on bat shit crazy insistence on playing three up top.

Central strikers: Only one player on the books with a recent record of success playing the central role in the three ( Mcburnie). This extremely physical role, however, has been given to 35 year old Sharp who has been hung out to dry by the manager ( credit for exceeding expectations). Other strikers are also hung out to dry being judged when playing out of position in the wide areas.

In game management has been disastrous. Point after point has been thrown away because he seemingly has no idea how to shut a game down or exploit the spaces. When asked he says "attack is the best form of defense". Looks like it! Players also look unmotivated and frankly confused.

Set pieces have also been terrible for the most part.
While I agree that Slav needs to change his tactics and formation.We bought Egan from Brentford for a significant fee at the time from a club who were a selling club buying cheap and selling on for more. Egan would be fine with a better partner than he has had and with full backs who are in form.

In my view the only role for Berge is on the right of a 3 man midfield in a 4 3 2 1 formation. At CM in a two he is not capable defensively and not athletic enough to quickly get up and down the pitch. To play in DM you need to be able to read the game and to play with your head up to see what is on. Berge while skilfull is very one sided and likes to take touches so I don't think he is suitable to that role.

McBurnies good season was years ago. He hasn't done much since he joined and he looks gangly and awkward. His propensity for giving away frees and getting involved in pushing and shoving is a negative in my view. When I first saw him play I thought he wasn't even related to a footballer. Since then he hasn't done anything to change my mind.
 
While I agree that Slav needs to change his tactics and formation.We bought Egan from Brentford for a significant fee at the time from a club who were a selling club buying cheap and selling on for more. Egan would be fine with a better partner than he has had and with full backs who are in form.

In my view the only role for Berge is on the right of a 3 man midfield in a 4 3 2 1 formation. At CM in a two he is not capable defensively and not athletic enough to quickly get up and down the pitch. To play in DM you need to be able to read the game and to play with your head up to see what is on. Berge while skilfull is very one sided and likes to take touches so I don't think he is suitable to that role.

McBurnies good season was years ago. He hasn't done much since he joined and he looks gangly and awkward. His propensity for giving away frees and getting involved in pushing and shoving is a negative in my view. When I first saw him play I thought he wasn't even related to a footballer. Since then he hasn't done anything to change my mind.

We paid 3.5 million plus add ons for Egan. It was a fair fee for us (only one other player cost over 1 million in our promotion squad) but it wasn't a particularly significant fee by the standards of the league. The Brentford fans were all over this board telling us how limited Egan was in a four; how glad they were to get rid of him etc. I do agree that with the right partner and adequate midfield protection he would be adequate or better in a four (the same can be said for Davies). They are both too small and physically unimposing to play in a four in this division together. With a brute next to them they'd be better. Indeed, Davies has already proved this at Preston.
Berge made his name playing in a two in a better league than the Championship. I'm not a big fan of Mcburnie either, but his record at Swans and Barnsley speaks for itself. As does the style he was able to execute.
 
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We paid 3.5 million plus add ons for Egan. It was a fair fee for us (only one other player cost over 1 million in our promotion squad) but it wasn't a particularly significant fee by the standards of the league. The Brentford fans were all over this board telling us how limited Egan was in a four; how glad they were to get rid of him etc. I do agree that with the right partner and adequate midfield protection he would be adequate or better in a four (the same can be said for Davies). They are both too small and physically unimposing to play in a four in this division. With a brute next to them they'd be better. Indeed, Davies has already proved this at Preston.
Berge made his name playing in a two in a better league than the Championship. I'm not a big fan of Mcburnie either, but his record at Swans and Barnsley speaks for itself. As does the style he was able to execute.
I think every club has players like Egan and Davies who can perform well if there are other good players beside them that leads to a balanced defence. Sol Bamba type of player is needed. Egan this season seems to be very poor at organising the defence. We need a leader in that position.

Berge may have made is name in that position but unless we get an athletic box to box player like Gallagher at Palace then I don't think he will add enough to get the midfield where we need it to be effective. The key is who we can get in.
 
We paid 3.5 million plus add ons for Egan. It was a fair fee for us (only one other player cost over 1 million in our promotion squad) but it wasn't a particularly significant fee by the standards of the league. The Brentford fans were all over this board telling us how limited Egan was in a four; how glad they were to get rid of him etc. I do agree that with the right partner and adequate midfield protection he would be adequate or better in a four (the same can be said for Davies). They are both too small and physically unimposing to play in a four in this division together. With a brute next to them they'd be better. Indeed, Davies has already proved this at Preston.
Berge made his name playing in a two in a better league than the Championship. I'm not a big fan of Mcburnie either, but his record at Swans and Barnsley speaks for itself. As does the style he was able to execute.
I’m sorry, but the average Championship team would kick the backside of most (not all) of the teams in the Belgian league.

The fact that Berge doesn’t appear to be able to cope in the Championship adds credence to this. Not to mention Verrips.
 
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I’m sorry, but the average Championship team would kick the backside of most (not all) of the teams in the Belgian league.

The fact that Berge doesn’t appear to be able to cope in the Championship adds credence to this. Not to mention Verrips.

The football is stylistically different, but it's fair to say the Belgium top league is higher end Champ to bottom end Prem technically. If we were in their top division this season or last season we'd be relegated quite comfortably.
 
The football is stylistically different, but it's fair to say the Belgium top league is higher end Champ to bottom end Prem technically. If we were in their top division this season or last season we'd be relegated quite comfortably.
Nope. A lot of their top division sides have the resources of league one clubs at best. It’s like Scotland or a lot of other European leagues. You put their bottom 6 in our league they’d still be bottom 6.
 
Nope. A lot of their top division sides have the resources of league one clubs at best. It’s like Scotland or a lot of other European leagues. You put their bottom 6 in our league they’d still be bottom 6.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
 
I’d play:
Olsen
Baldock/Bogle Egan Davies RND
Basham Berge
MGW Ndiaye Fleck
Sharp/Mousset/Brewster
With a fully fit squad, need more physical players in the DM positions.
 

I’d play:
Olsen
Baldock/Bogle Egan Davies RND
Basham Berge
MGW Ndiaye Fleck
Sharp/Mousset/Brewster
With a fully fit squad, need more physical players in the DM positions.
Replace Olsen with Wes and Fleck with Hourihane or Freeman and I'm in.
 

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